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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 8/8/2003 9:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
No. I think He just wants us to ask Him to. Have you read "The Prayer of Jabez"?
Sorry, I didn't qualify myself enough.
Well... let me just cut to the chase.
Putting aside the messager and the delivery method, does the message that Kenneth Copeland preaches hold up?
peace, don
Um, do the Gospels have implications for our material well-being and security.
Yes, there are uncertainties regarding these things. No, it is not good to be angst-ridden on these things.
But what does it mean to prosper? Most people always want ten percent more of whatever they got. I am an economist and so I want twenty-one percent more than whatever I got. 
I don't think its a good idea to consider these sorts of things completely independently of the political-economic system, as Kenneth Copeland does.
I probably am a Christian Socialist(broadly conceived) in part because in my experience and reading of the scriptures I think having people grow up not consciously facing their poverty or worrying incessantly about their economic futures, is potentially important for their spiritual development. I'm not saying it guarantees they will develop spiritually. They can always abuse said blessing, but not having that often leads to spiritual empoverishment in that it makes the person a lot more materialistic than they need to be.
Cornel West in Race Matters talks about the nihilism threatening the poor today. I.e., living in a culture that projects regularly that your personal value is based on how much stuff you have, makes those with very little stuff believe they have next to no value. When I worked with inner-city churches, I learned of how people from their neighborhood would constantly be taking stuff from the church, regardless of whether they needed it or not. Why because they had to have some stuff to hold onto to guarantee them meaning.
So I think our material existences does matter and that is why in my three-party-political economy paper, I suggest that if we didn't have a two-party system, we could have more popular democracy relative to the democracy of the dollar in the determination of what our gov't does.
This also is why I started the link on why are Evangelicals so politically inept.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 8/8/2003 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Is Kenneth Copeland one of those "prosperity Gospel" preachers?
Some would quickly say an unqualified, yes, he is one of the "prosperity preachers" .
But, I'm hearing him say the same thing the Doc does in respect to choices form habits, habits form character, and character determines destiny ( or something like that ). So the prosperity he preaches is fully qualified by making Godly choices.
peace, don
It is true that good habits are an important prerequisite to becoming a successful entrepreneur, business-man or in any other walk in life. Like for example, to become a successful academic means being able to avoid spending god-awful amounts of time throwing your thoughts/pearls at non-academics/swine.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/8/2003 10:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by DLW
quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Is Kenneth Copeland one of those "prosperity Gospel" preachers?
Some would quickly say an unqualified, yes, he is one of the "prosperity preachers" .
But, I'm hearing him say the same thing the Doc does in respect to choices form habits, habits form character, and character determines destiny ( or something like that ). So the prosperity he preaches is fully qualified by making Godly choices.
peace, don
It is true that good habits are an important prerequisite to becoming a successful entrepreneur, business-man or in any other walk in life. Like for example, to become a successful academic means being able to avoid spending god-awful amounts of time throwing your thoughts/pearls at non-academics/swine.
dlw
But, even all that good behavior leading to prosperity cannot control things like recessions, depressions, employee mishandling of funds and imbezzlement, theft, unjust accusations that ruin your reputation, competitors that somehow make more sales than you do, etc.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Fleetwood
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 110
| Posted 8/9/2003 8:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Don "I'm hearing him say the same thing the Doc does in respect to choices form habits, habits form character, and character determines destiny ( or something like that ). So the prosperity he preaches is fully qualified by making Godly choices."
Jesus, Paul, Peter, et al made godly choices but did not prosper in the sense of material wealth or in ways people seek to prosper. God CAN cause us to prosper, but it is not a guarantee in this life REGARDLESS of choices, habits, character. All over the world and throughout history, there are people martyred, imprisoned, tortured, refugees and on because they have chosen to follow Jesus. It is primarily the white Anglo-Saxon in America and Europe who seeks after prosperity. We have the most opportunity to prosper so makes some sense.
Those who prosper most in our America are movie stars and athletes (adn the occasional Bill Gates!) who are not prospering due to godly choices or character. Can't say that Wilt Chamberlain, the man boasting of bedding some, hundreds? thousands? of women... prospered due to character or godly choices. Take porn stars. Pretty wealthy people. Due to character? Godly choices? Take the martyr Stephen? Prospered? No... stoned.
I tend to think many believe the prayer of jabez the "psychic balm" that if said enough and just right, will give you wealth, health, and all you desire. Sure, it might, but then again, you might be tortured, imprisoned, shipwrecked, beat, yada.
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/10/2003 4:22 PM (GMT -6) | | _The Prayer of Jabez_, has nothing whatsoever to do with financial prosperity. It is entirely devoted to "expanding the borders" of one's ministry and influence for good. Nowhere in the book is the so-called "prosperity gospel" ever once mentioned or alluded to in any way. The book is simply about Jabez's desire to be a blessing to others and useful to God. (Believe me when I say I would never endorse any book that promoted "the health-and-wealth gospel.")
As to financial prosperity, I think the best approach is:
Prov 30:7 ¶ Two things I asked of You, Do not refuse me before I die:
8 Keep deception and lies far from me, Give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion,
9 That I not be full and deny {You} and say, "Who is the LORD?" Or that I not be in want and steal, And profane the name of my God.
Phil 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.
12 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
Matt 6:31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/12/2003 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
_The Prayer of Jabez_, has nothing whatsoever to do with financial prosperity. It is entirely devoted to "expanding the borders" of one's ministry and influence for good. Nowhere in the book is the so-called "prosperity gospel" ever once mentioned or alluded to in any way. The book is simply about Jabez's desire to be a blessing to others and useful to God. (Believe me when I say I would never endorse any book that promoted "the health-and-wealth gospel.")
As to financial prosperity, I think the best approach is:
Prov 30:7 ¶ Two things I asked of You, Do not refuse me before I die:
8 Keep deception and lies far from me, Give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion,
9 That I not be full and deny {You} and say, "Who is the LORD?" Or that I not be in want and steal, And profane the name of my God.
Phil 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.
12 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
Matt 6:31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
John,
I love how you're able to find just the right Scripture verse to back up what you say! We should all be as intimate with the Bible as you appear to be! 
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 8/12/2003 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Prosperity, as well as poverty, need to be taken in perspective.
The Law, Proverbs, and much of the Bible speak of "blessings" for doing good, and "curses" for doing bad.
However, this is always tinged with God's sovereignty. The book of Job as well as Jesus' own words that He causes the sun to shine on the righteous and unrighteous should tell us that neither is guarenteed. It should also tell us that neither is a reliable indicator of our spiritual state.
The Prayer of Jabez I believe has been taken largely out of context in mainstream teaching. I'm not saying that we ought NOT to pray for good things (even materialistic things), or that God did not grant them to Jabez, but the emphasis should be that Jabez was "more honorable" than his brothers. And that is what God was interested in. His heart condition. If your heart is not in the right place, then you could be asking for all the right things in vain.
Contrast that prayer to the prayer of Agur(sp?) in Proverbs who asked that God give him neither riches nor poverty. Riches so he would not ask, "Who is the Lord?", nor poverty that he would steal and dishonor His name. For us as wealthy Americans (in my opinion, if you eat every day, have access to emergency medical care, and have clothes to wear you are wealthy), I believe we would be better off praying this prayer.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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