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Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 8/28/2003 9:23 AM (GMT -6) |   | I'm not sure if this fits better in this forum or the Problem of Evil one, so I posted it here because it's more lonely.
Anyway, has anyone seen Michael Moore's excellent film "Bowling For Columbine"? If you have, what are your thoughts/reactions, and more importantly, how should a disciple of Christ respond to the very relevant issues raised within? Should American Christians be concerned about the contemporary "culture of fear", and become vocal in protesting the newsmedia, government policies, and immoral business dealings that help perpetuate it?
Personally, this film hit me like a ton of bricks emotionally. I had been skeptical of Moore and his "agenda" up until recently, but once I actually took time to listen to and understand his views on their own merits (imagine that!), I was floored. His is the closest thing to a prophetic voice I've heard, and he's not even a committed believer (he's a nominal Roman Catholic, I think)!!!
Why isn't the Body of Christ taking up these causes? I believe social action (especially against wicked institutions, "powers and authorities", if you will) is an effective VEHICLE for the Gospel, not a hindrance at all!
Anyway, this space is NOT for criticism of Moore himself, but simply a reaction to his movie. Please do not post potshots at him or his ideology unless you've done the courtesy of actually viewing the film, whether you agree in the end or not.
Thank you all in advance for your Christ-like behavior and grace as we discuss this important piece of work.
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 8/29/2003 10:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Again, I asked for people who had actually seen the film to comment, honorindividual, and not surprisingly, you came riding in to correct me WITHOUT HAVING SEEN THE FILM. I expected there to be debate, but I was hoping that it would be an informed one. And no, reading an article about the film (from ANY perspective) does not qualify you or anyone to attack it.
Back to the film itself, it spends little if any time on gun laws. If anything, it shows that the rest of the world has as many guns and as few laws regulating their use as we do, comparatively. The questions asked are much deeper than that. So you're simply misinformed. No harm, GO WATCH THE MOVIE then tell me your problems with it. And for your information, I didn't swallow all his conclusions hook, line, and sinker. It's the QUESTIONS raised that are important, and make it worth viewing, no matter what your final analysis is.
I suppose I'm asking too much, however.
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 8/30/2003 7:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | Blood: you are right. I am truly sorry. I should have followed the rules you set down...as such I will delete my posts and free up some space for someone who has something to say. You are right...I didn't see the film. Therefore I shouldn't have responded. Again, I am truly sorry... | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 8/31/2003 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/31/2003 12:00 PM (GMT -6) | | BOWLING
FOR
COLUMBINE
WAS
ABSOLUTELY
EXCELLENT!!!
I have some stuff to say about this later... | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 9/1/2003 3:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Blood Washed Heretic
Anyway, has anyone seen Michael Moore's excellent film "Bowling For Columbine"? If you have, what are your thoughts/reactions, and more importantly, how should a disciple of Christ respond to the very relevant issues raised within? Should American Christians be concerned about the contemporary "culture of fear", and become vocal in protesting the newsmedia, government policies, and immoral business dealings that help perpetuate it?
Personally, this film hit me like a ton of bricks emotionally. I had been skeptical of Moore and his "agenda" up until recently, but once I actually took time to listen to and understand his views on their own merits (imagine that!), I was floored. His is the closest thing to a prophetic voice I've heard, and he's not even a committed believer (he's a nominal Roman Catholic, I think)!!!
Why isn't the Body of Christ taking up these causes? I believe social action (especially against wicked institutions, "powers and authorities", if you will) is an effective VEHICLE for the Gospel, not a hindrance at all!
Blood Washed Heretic, I agree with what you say above. I believe that fear is the opposite of love, and to whatever extent actions toward neighbors are motivated by fear, Christians should challenge those actions and model another way. Moore’s “Bowling for Columbine” is an example of this.
Fear seeks a scapegoat as an object to demonize. There are both conservative and liberal examples of action based on fear. In response to Columbine, a conservative reaction might be to ban Marilyn Mason; a liberal reaction might be to ban guns.
Moore went deeper and looked into all the potential causes. He listened to the students, the parents, the teachers, the corporations, the politicians, the police, the criminals, the shock rocker, the cartoonist, and even the Canadians  and gave them a chance to tell their story and to take whatever responsibility they felt they should bear. Some refused to take any (e.g. Charlton Heston, president of the NRA) and some accepted it and changed for the better (e.g. K-Mart).
I liked the face to face format of it.
Electra
Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing. ~ Dostoevsky | | Back to Top | | |
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Blood Washed Heretic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2003
Total Posts : 167
| Posted 9/2/2003 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon: You're right. I probably did overspeak by inferring that governments, as such, are "wicked institutions". I do agree with you that they are certainly capable of being used by The Enemy, being an integral part of this occupied planet and all. But thank you for your gentle correction.
Honorman: Thank you for displaying such grace and, well, honor. It means a lot to me. It's obvious that we have our differences, but we are brothers in Christ, and essentially on the same Side. Thank you for being so selfless on this matter.
Meph: I'm really looking forward to your thoughts.
Tigress: My earlier rants were a little out of hand, but never directed at you. Please feel free to chime in, it's just that I wanted this particular thread to be as centered around the film as possible.
DLW: I hope you get a chance to see it soon, as I'm sure your insights will be important to this discussion. Oh, and Reloaded is in the cheap theatres now, so hopefully we'll be digging that dead horse up again soon  .
Keep it up, peoples 
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty; In all things, love. | | Back to Top | | |
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anewbeginning
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 9/5/2003 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | | Excellent documentary. I found it curious that Michael Moore didn't seem to be pushing for "gun control", rather he was simply interested in America's cycle of fear and it's possible influence on society. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/8/2003 9:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Over at theoweb there was a posting at the following location on the movie...
theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=041b7ae3902130fedc1ac50122236901&threadid=9902
Bowling for Columbine Propaganda
I'd like responses only from those who have watched Bowling for Columbine. I watched it. As an informed viewer (one who is aware of the background/truth of many of his pericopes), I have 4 conclusions/observations.
First, Moore does an excellent job as one who is trying to influence the opinions of others. He presents himself (using his "schlocky" appearance as a tool) as just an average Joe, with intelligent/common sense questions. This is very effective, since it makes him look like he has no agenda. Indeed, he does not build an argument in a linear fashion, but keeps repeating/rotating between several ideas. His cutting between scenes and quotes leaves profound impressions. These impressions, when tied together, effectively guide the viewer to one or more related conclusions.
Second, Moore's message is that (1) American "white man" culture is driven by fear, which runs to the founding of this country Also, he wants us to understand that (2) American Corporations, Government, and the media conspire to promote "white man" fear so that, while they don't care about the needs of the poor/struggling citizen, they exploit/control the fearful white man. Another message is that (3) Americans like to choose violence to settle our differences/fears, and that we are to blame -- directly or indireclty -- for much of the violence around the world over the last 55 years. Finally, (4) Moore paints the NRA as being closely associated with "white man fear", the KKK, racism, and as being callous exploiters of gun-related tragedies, while Marilyn Manson is a kind and insightful and innocent man.
Third, apart from the fact that the news "hypes" bad news and gun stories (I'll get back to this one), Moore is a first class deceiver. His cartoon about "fearful white men" has no more basis in history than the movies "Jaws" or "The Poseidon Adventure". Most of his statistics and "facts" from his pericope's are either grossly distorted or ripped from significant context (I'm not denying that America has backed thugs -- to our shame). His interviews ignore critical information, and present out and out lies. His confrontations with Walmart are absurd -- makes about as much sense as Moore walking into the corporate headquarters for Dunkin donuts, and confronting them with the fat in his body, "caused by Dunkin Donuts donuts". His abuse of the history, purpose, and actions of the NRA, and of his character assasination of Charleton Heston in particular, are distortions, deceptions and slander. Look below my fourth point for a partial list of deceptions/distortions.
Fourth, I agree that the media hypes "fear". This is exactly what happens with gun-violence. "Bad" gun usage gets way too much coverage (especially considering that it represents a miniscule % of gun usage, and a very small percentage of accidental deaths), fostering fear and influencing public opinion to a false conclusion. If they reported all causes of childhood deaths with equall "per incident" coverage as gun-violence, we wouldn't license drivers until they were 21 and we would criminalize the keeping of unsealed 5 gallon buckets. But If Moore is right, that gun-violence is way over-hyped by the media, then why is he spending so much time demonizing the NRA, Walmart, and gun owners? If we're really not a problem, then why is he wasting our time with this "documentary" (actually propaganda). On the other hand, IF "we" really are a significant problem, then it's not hype, and his whole premise regarding "fear-mongering" is bogus. Yes, America has made several bad choices in foreign policy. Without the historical context to consider what our options were, it is difficult to accurately judge these tidbits of history.
Finally, a partial list of some of the deceptions I'm aware of (a synthesis of the material at http://www.bowlingfortruth.com./ ):
- Harris & Klebold skipped their bowling class that morning.
- The guns and ammunition Harris & Klebold got were obtained illegally, carried illegally, and used illegally.
- Guns are not normally kept at the Bank Moore visited.
- The "Blind" gun owner is not 100% blind -- but he is an easy "target" for criminals.
- The Lockheed Martin rockets are for satellite launches, not weapons.
- The "Wonderful Life" montage is filled with falsehoods (eg. 9-11 attack did not use "CIA Training").
- The bomber plaque only says they shot down a MIG on X-mas Eve 1972.
- The Pilgrims WERE persecuted (not just afraid of persecution)
- There was no Pilgrim on Indian genocide.
- Black slavery was not started by Americans.
- Black slavery was encouraged by Black Africans who sold others into slavery.
- The KKK started in 1866, in the south, as a terrorist organization.
- The NRA started in 1871, by request of NY Unions, as an act of the NY legislature.
- After his presidency U.S. Grant (who attacked the KKK) was elected president of the NRA.
- Immigrant Minority populations: Canada = 13%, US = 31% (these are not "about the same").
- Canadian healthcare is a disaster for everyone dependent on it.
- The violence in other countries statistics are false.
- The Kayla Roland murderer had a nearly daily history of school violence, including stabbing a girl.
- The Kayla Roland murderer's extended family was filled with drug dealers.
- The Kayla Roland murderer's mother was being provided a job, not being forced to work.
- The Kayla Roland murderer's mother chose to leave her son in a crack house, where he found a gun.
- The Kayla Roland murderer's mother had drugs & child abuse in her history.
- The NRA was founded in New York, at the request of the government, around 1866.
- The NRA supported the right of blacks to own guns, for protection against the KKK.
- Heston did not "follow the gun tragedies" with pro-gun rallies.
- Heston visited Flint was 8 months after the Roland murder, as part of an election ralley tour.
And FYI, Walmart has not stopped selling handgun ammunition.
Open for comments/complaints/repraisals, from those who have watched the propaganda, and read the criticisms regarding Moore's truthfulness.
Jacob
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anewbeginning
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 9/8/2003 1:33 PM (GMT -6) | | One problem with this I noticed:
quote:
His confrontations with Walmart are absurd....
And FYI, Walmart has not stopped selling handgun ammunition.
It was actually K-mart.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 9/8/2003 1:43 PM (GMT -6) | | This is also from the other board.
- Errmmm. Okay, I'll be the first person to agree that Moore should be taken with a grain (or two) of salt. He's certainly a little one-sided.
- However:
“ Moore paints the NRA as being closely associated with "white man fear", the KKK, racism, and as being callous exploiters of gun-related tragedies, while Marilyn Manson is a kind and insightful and innocent man. ”
- The NRA and the KKK have a heck of a lot of coincidental history, to say the least. As for Manson, I don't think anyone can argue that he is NOT insightful. The man is a shock rocker, but he does think. I'm not sure what he may be "guilty" of, either.
“ His confrontations with Walmart are absurd -- makes about as much sense as Moore walking into the corporate headquarters for Dunkin donuts, and confronting them with the fat in his body, "caused by Dunkin Donuts donuts". ”
- K-mart. Not Walmart. And I'm not certain his argument was that they were responsible for Columbine, just that selling ammo for handguns (not hunting rifles) contributed to the ease with which the boys at Columbine carried out their plans. His argument of course is that handguns, especially semi-autos and high-capacity clips, have no practical reason to be sold except to accomplish missions like the boys at Columbine had in mind. Whether or not that's true is debatable.
“ - The guns and ammunition Harris & Klebold got were obtained illegally, carried illegally, and used illegally. ”
- The ammo was purchased legally at K-mart. The rest is true I think.
“ - Guns are not normally kept at the Bank Moore visited. ”
- Just on the holidays maybe?
“ The "Blind" gun owner is not 100% blind -- but he is an easy "target" for criminals. ”
- How blind is he? He's blind enough not to be able to drive, but he's not blind enough not to carry a handgun. Hmmm. And presumably, his driving restriction is for safety.
“ - The Lockheed Martin rockets are for satellite launches, not weapons. ”
- The ones in the background in the movie, yes. They aren't about to let Moore into the classified area where they build missles!
“ - The "Wonderful Life" montage is filled with falsehoods (eg. 9-11 attack did not use "CIA Training"). ”
- "What A Wonderful World", not "wonderful life".
- And the CIA training was actually special forces training sponsored by the CIA, which trickled down to Al Queda operatives. The Army Special Forces trains trainers, who then train indigenous troops. Did the hijackers use techniques that the CIA specifically trained them to carry out? No. Were the camps they trained at provided with training resources by the US? Yes... to conduct ops against Russian troops.
“ - There was no Pilgrim on Indian genocide. ”
- Huh?
“ - Black slavery was not started by Americans. ”
- Moore never states that it was. Just they we took part in it and made megabucks from it.
“ - Black slavery was encouraged by Black Africans who sold others into slavery. ”
- Which makes it perfectly fine!
“ - The KKK started in 1866, in the south, as a terrorist organization. ”
- Actually the KKK started as a gentleman's club... like a fraternity. It became a terrorist org, yes.
"The origin of the Ku Klux Klan was a carefully guarded secret for years, although there were many theories to
explain its beginnings. One Popular notion held that the Ku Klux Klan was originally a secret order of Chinese
opium smugglers. Another claimed it was begun by Confederate prisoners during the war. The most ridiculous
theory attributed the name to some ancient Jewish document referring to the Hebrews enslaved by Egyptian
pharaohs.
In fact the beginning of the Klan involved nothing so sinister, subversive or ancient as the theories supposed. It
was the boredom of small-town life that led six young Confederate veterans to gather around a fireplace one
December evening in 1865 and form a social club. The place was Pulaski, Tennessee, near the Alabama border.
When they reassembled a week later, the six young men were full of ideas for their new society. It would be secret, to heighten the amusement of the thing, and the titles for the various officers were to have names as
preposterous-sounding as possible, partly for the fun of it and partly to avoid any military or political implications.
Thus, the head of the group was called the Grand Cyclops. His assistant was the Grand Magi; there was to be a
Grand Turk to greet all candidates for admission, a Grand Scribe to act as secretary, Night Hawks for messengers and a Lictor to be the guard. The members, when the six young men found some to join, would be called Ghouls. But what name to call the society itself? The founders were determined to come up with something unusual and mysterious. Being well-educated, they turned to Greek. After tossing around a number of ideas, Richard R. Reed suggested the word "kuklos," from which the English words "circle and "cycle" are derived. Another member, Captain John B. Kennedy, had an ear for alliteration and added the word "clam." After tinkering with the sound for a while, group settled on the "Ku Klux Klan." The selection of the name, chance though it was, had a great deal to do with the Klan's early success. Something about the sound aroused curiosity and gave the fledgling club an immediate air of mystery, as did the initials K.K.K., which were soon to take on such terrifying significance.
Soon after the founders named the Klan, they decided to a bit of showing off and so disguised themselves in sheets and galloped their horses through the quiet streets of little Pulaski. Their ride created such a stir that the men decided to adopt the sheets as the official regalia of the Ku Klux Klan, and they added to the effect by making grotesque masks and tall pointed hats. The founders also performed elaborate initiation ceremonies for new members. Their ceremony was similar to the hazing popular in college fraternities and consisted of blindfolding the candidate, subject him to a series of silly oaths and rough handling, and finally bringing him before a "royal alter" where he was to be invested with "royal crown." The altar turned out to be a mirror and the crown two large donkey's ears. Ridiculous though it sounds today, that was the high point of the earliest activities of the Ku Klux Klan."
“ - The violence in other countries statistics are false. ”
- Are they? I don't recall them from the movie.
“ - The Kayla Roland murderer had a nearly daily history of school violence, including stabbing a girl.
- The Kayla Roland murderer's extended family was filled with drug dealers.
- The Kayla Roland murderer's mother was being provided a job, not being forced to work.
- The Kayla Roland murderer's mother chose to leave her son in a crack house, where he found a gun.
- The Kayla Roland murderer's mother had drugs & child abuse in her history. ”
- Agreed here. Moore went over the top on that one; there has to be at least some individual (and parental) responsibility.
“ And FYI, Walmart has not stopped selling handgun ammunition. ”
- No, but I think K-mart has, which was the store in question.
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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following
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 9/24/2003 9:04 AM (GMT -6) | | watch the movie again.
this movie is not a documentary.
moore shamelessly cuts and edits things to
make them appear how he wants.
focus in on the few scenes where he shows
charleton helston give the speech with
that famous quote about not from his cold dead hands,
and he makes you try to believe that other statements were
made at the same time. heston's tie changes colors 2-3 times
in the sequence. weird.....
overall i think he makes some good points, but he's at the extreme left the same way many people are at the extreme right. both sides
seem warped in their ability to present defintions to problems and in coming up with solutions. its gion gto taking something in the middle to address these larger issues.
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