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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/15/2004 1:51 PM (GMT -6) |   | A friend sent this to me. He entitled it, "Did the SBC forget about God's love despite differences?" I responded saying that fundamentalism of all stripes is scary.
Southern Baptists Quit World Alliance
By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer
INDIANAPOLIS - The Southern Baptist Convention voted Tuesday to quit the Baptist World Alliance following complaints that some members of the loose, global association had adopted liberal theology and "anti-American" thinking.
The SBC is the world's largest Baptist denomination and America's largest Protestant body, with 16.3 million members. It helped launch the alliance 99 years ago and was a strong supporter before shifting toward strict conservatism a quarter-century ago.
The pullout, proposed by the SBC executive committee on the basis of a negative December task force report, was approved overwhelmingly by a show of hands.
The alliance, based in Falls Church, Va., is a federation of 46 million Baptists in 211 denominations. The SBC donated $425,000 to the world alliance last year, then cut that to $300,000 this year. The alliance's operating budget is $1.7 million.
"Our concern is not financial," said the Rev. Denton Lotz, general secretary of the world alliance. "Our concern is schism and division. Christians need to be a united voice."
The December report complained that some in the alliance had questioned "the truthfulness of Holy Scripture," refused to affirm the necessity of conscious faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, promoted women preachers, criticized the SBC and its foreign mission board and adopted an "anti-American" tone.
The last straw came in 2003, when the alliance accepted as a member the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, a rival group to the SBC formed by moderates who oppose denominational leaders' conservative policies.
Prior to Tuesday's vote, Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, said the SBC should not give money or endorsement to an organization that includes liberals.
He also complained that the American Baptist Churches, a U.S. denomination, includes "gay-friendly congregations," and that other members of the world alliance call the inerrancy of Scripture into question.
In other Tuesday business, thousands of attendees were to elect a new SBC president; the only announced candidate is the Rev. Bobby Welch of Daytona Beach, Fla. They also expected to hear a video greeting from President Bush (news - web sites). And an evening program will urge Baptists to promote voter registration and work against gay marriage.
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 6/15/2004 2:05 PM (GMT -6) | | | So its wrong for people to stand up for what they believe? | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 6/15/2004 6:05 PM (GMT -6) | | | Well, I don't see anything they are standing up for that I would have a problem with... | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 6/16/2004 1:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I think it also is important that we not objectify the "fundamentalists," too. I've known many Southern Baptists who were simply sincere, Bible-believing Christians. Definitely not perfect (and they would never claim they were) but certainly sincere. While I do not personally agree with everything they stand for, it seems to me that the media and some left-wing Christians have tried to paint the fundamentalists in the worst possible light.
I agree that we should not objectify “fundamentalists.” This is why I said that I have problems with James Barr’s approach though he is right on about most of what he says about them. My thing is to say, “Hey, as a Christian I have a rich history. Evangelicals are the offspring of fundamentalists. Therefore there is much that I owe to them.” This is what Mouw calls, “a hermeneutic of charity.” And so, I agree with your statement about the sincerity of fundamentalists. Even those who are Pharisaical. As we know, Jesus had strong words for the “Pharisaical Pharisee” (not all Pharisees in the Bible are painted in a negative tone), but he still loved them as he loved the rich (we really come down hard on those guys) and those who killed him. However, Mouw tells the story of a fundamentalist he encountered and how he walked away feeling saddened by this unexpected meeting.
What I’m getting at is that at the same time I have difficulty with those who are more in love with “right doctrine,” their fundamentalistic beliefs (and having all the right arguments) and who have such passion for not sinning then truly caring for what is fundamental, loving God and neighbor. It’s the attitude. Yes, many fundamentalist are loving people (and probably more tolerant as well) but it is not those that I’m decrying. I think you know the kind I’m talking about.
quote:
I also think you are possibly being inconsistent on this issue. You yourself have stood against gay-marriage and the pro-homosexuality views of many on this site. Are you not guilty of the same thing you accuse the SBC of?
No. I don’t hold that those who have this view of human sexuality are not Christian. Many of my fundamentalist brothers and sisters would. I don’t think those on the affirming side of the homosexuality debate are taking into consideration all the relevant teaching of scripture (Creation, Fall, redemption and renewal…shouldn’t eschatology effect our ethics i.e. doesn’t “becoming” in the image of God or in union with God have bearing on this issue?)but I would never say they are not Christian. I also don’t have a problem with gay persons being ministers. What I have not agreed on is not their orientation but rather their “action” or “works” which is, as I see it, what God will judge (disposition will essentially be that which eventually gets renewed). From the article above it is not clear what the SBC means by “gay-friendly congregations.”
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 6/16/2004 3:03 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BBBCanada
quote:
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Brandon. I have read and re-read the article you posted, and cannot find anywhere in it where it says anything about any group of people "not being Christians."
Fundamentalism by it’s nature includes those who hold to its beliefs as Christians and those who disagree as outside their circle which would mean unbeliever or heretic. It's like that with all forms of fundamentalism.
Yes, that is generally how fundamentalism views "others." However, in my experience, even strict independent fundamental baptists I've known have considered me a "real" Christian (a Pentecostal), which is something that was simply not true in earlier decades. One need only read some of the fundamentalist manifestoes from the 1920s to see how they viewed us "tongue-talkers." It seems to me that at least some fundamentalists are not as exclusive as they perhaps "should" be. Also in my experience we tend to fear and distance ourselves from that which we don't understand.
Most Baptists I've known have held firm convictions on most things, but I don't recall very many of them in recent years saying that we Pentecostals were categorically "of the devil," like they used to.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/16/2004 4:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BBBCanada
I can live with these “mistakes” as I don’t think they ruin “the Story” (if you are into narrative theology (which I basically am).
On the issue of having a conscious faith in salvation (they are no doubt exclusivists or restrictivists) this is also something that is on its way out. Check out this thread: www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3091
Again, only a staunch conservative would insist that one is going to hell who did not make a knowledgeable decision about Christ (though I can accept the possibility that one can be a conservative of varying degrees i.e. disagree with inclusivism and inerrancy).
And what is with all the hoopla that one needs to be a “pro-American conservative” in order to be a part of the SBC? There are certainly weaknesses in taking this ONE political stance. If you would like I can lay that out for you.
Lastly, what do they mean by “gay-friendly congregations?” Do they mean that ministers should not be accepted who are gay? That they can’t take to the pulpit? Do they mean that ministers should not be accepted who are in favour of gay-marriage (i.e. actually perform gay marriages)? Do they mean that gay persons cannot fellowship in their church? Greg Boyd would be on the out with these guys!
Personally, if you ARE an inclusivist, “gay-friendly,” or are a “pro-American conservative” then you are probably NOT a “pure” Christian according to the SBC. Fundamentalism does not equal Christianity.
What is narrative theology?
Have you read A Wideness in God's Mercy by Pinnock. I haven't yet, but it's next on my list (I'm reading two at the moment, editing my own book, editing a book for a friend, formulating a message on righteousness...YIKES!) But, I have a feeling it will be an eye opener for me.
I admit to often feeling out of my league in these discussions, but I appreciate the patience of those who take the time to explain these things to me. I've come a long way since my SBC days, and have a view of God that I never dreamed I would have, and one that has changed my life. I'm not sure though, if you are saying that you do not need to make a conscious decision for Christ in order to be saved?
Being Canadian, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "pro-American Conservative." I had little to do with "politics" as part of the Convention - just a sincere believer, striving to "find" the will of God for my life. (I found it).
"Gay-friendly congregations?" I have two lady friends (unsaved) who are lesbian. They live in a small community (fly in ) in the North and one of them found our church number in a directory, contacted me and told me she would like a Bible. She then started e-mailing me. She's a writer as well, and a wonderful person. One day she wrote and told me that there was something about her that I needed to know, and that I might not want to be her friend any longer. She told me she was a lesbian. I told her that that did not change my friendship with her. I would never accept a gay minister. But I would accept gay friends.
Frankly Charlotte, I do not care if the SBC thinks I'm a pure christian. I care if the Father thinks I am.
I don't know what an inclusivist is. Do I qualify? I hope so.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/21/2004 11:05 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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