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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/21/2004 6:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by BBBCanada
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Marriage
Created by God is how scripture regards marriage. But we don't all marry. What can be said that pertains to all of us? Well, humanity is "created male and female." And that is the true nature of our humanity -- married or not. The Christian school I teach in has many single women who work tirelessly with special education kids of all ages and difficulties. They commit themselves to serving others in sacrificial ways that marriage would limit. But especially with them I can see that humanity is the combination of male and female contribution, perspective. And the wonderful essence that results when female contributes to male and male contributes to female defines all of our humanity. It constructs the well from which we all draw. God created it that way.
Notice that the language throughout POW's post is thoroughly theological and not fill with the therapeutic cultural vernacular. 
quote:
I've heard that those who succeed in their second marriage often believe that what they had to learn in that second marriage to make it work probably would have saved their first marriage too.
As Dobson says, "The grass may look greener on the other side of the fence but you still have to mow it."
I feel I can share this. When I went to counseling a few years ago with a wretched aching heart (which is still in the process of healing) my counselor told me to hold a pillow to my face and to incrementally take it away. At first all I could see was the pillow. But at each move, I could see more and more things outside of the edges of the pillow. Soon the pillow became small enough that I could see the counseling room. My counselor then told me that in time I would see the "bigger picture." He was right.
This is no time for ANOTHER relationship. Another relationship clouds the "bigger picture." It doesn't give one time to do inventory. To process. Why? Because it is a looking outward instead of inward to see one's role in the marriage. I was reading Madeleine L'engle's book "Sold into Egypt." On her talk about Jacob she says that it is amazing that Jacob could wrestle with an angel but never wrestled with himself (and we all know about Jacob!). Real and painstakingly honest people are hard to find.
Who knows, by doing so, maybe you will see some things you never seen before.
This is very wise. You're right. It's often hard to "see the forrest for the trees." Sometimes it helps to step back and see the bigger picture. But, what if you have done that, and done that, and done that?
I guess my question is, is there ever another option? Not meaning another relationship, at least at the time you are in pain. But, what about those who struggle continuously in an abusive relationship? At what point, as Wade says, does a man (or a woman) "talk to God and decide to end the pain"?
I hear what you are saying, and what sparknheart is saying, and some others, and I agree in the sacredness and beauty of marriage. I've also seen abusive marriages, marriages where couples have gone to counselling for years. Some dear friends are currently going through that kind of pain and the separation they are now experiencing is unavoidable. Our place is not to judge them now. It is to love them through this, and perhaps God will restore them to the marriage that they both long for with all their hearts. We are praying. We love them both.
It sounds like many of us have experienced pain in marriage. Sometimes I wonder how much ministry and the busyness of life has a part to play in all of this. Sometimes we become submerged and succumb to the tyranny of the urgent in our lives, and we forget to tend what is most dear to us, and like a garden - left untended, weeds soon appear and can choke the life out of something that had potential, something that brought life.
Marriage needs to be a carefully tended garden. This is not to heap guilt on anyone. I know, that sometimes, other factors are at play. Sometimes, one person does not want to seek help, and the other can try, and try, and try, and try - I've seen it. Sometimes, the pain can be endured no longer. I understand that. God hates this as much as we do, but I believe that He loves us more than He hates this. Does that make sense?
You can tell I'm torn in this. I think we all are. The "no option" (for divorce) idea of Sparknhearts is a good one, even noble, but I know that it doesn't always work.
Ultimately, the couple, after exhausting all that they can to restore a marriage - is answerable alone to the Father. And I think we all know, that taking such a serious step, has far reaching consequences, meaning that it affects not just the couple and their children, if children are involved, but a community, extended family, and ultimately in some way - eternity. Every choice we make. Which brings me back to this: could that choice ultimately be more positive than negative? Sometimes I believe it can. I agree with Wade. When it gets to "that point" - there isn't a marriage. The plain truth is, God doesn't always restore. He desires that, but it doesn't always happen because of free will of human and other agents, because of the complexity of creation, because of...
Still praying,
God Bless,
Jo-Anne (we're both praying)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/21/2004 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare.
She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.
Hello barryatk,
I have found, one of the worse things you can do to a marriage is to play the “divorce” card trying to force your partner’s hand. The internal warfare of our minds is most often found in private pity parties hosted by the enemy himself. As long as you buy into believing that divorce is an option, then the enemy will leverage it against your marriage. If out of the corner of your eye you envision bliss with a new partner, then you will weaken the clarity needed to see the true beauty of your bride. It is NOT God that turns your eyes elsewhere disguised as a means to end your “suffering”. The enemy comes to kill and destroy all that is lovely. The enemy is not your wife, for she is your love, your beautiful bride. Turn away from your self and see the heart of your wife that reflects the image of God and His love. He is always teaching us how to love, and the sacrament of marriage is a daily field test. Wake up and remember the dream you once had for her heart and focus your eyes on rekindling the flame of her shattered heart. You are called to bring her good spirits and to protect her. See the little girl in her eyes, remembering, we are all children of God.
I pray that the healing love of God’s touch will trace the cracks of your hearts.
Blessings,
Mark
Spark,
This is wise, and very beautifully voiced. I appreciate your heart in this, and I can see where the Father is using you to help strengthen and build marriages.
You're right. If only we could see sometimes, our vision unclouded by the enemy, and all of his wiles. He is constantly seeking to steal, kill and destroy, and honestly - sometimes I believe we forget that.
If we can step back from the pain, and see with new eyes, it can change things.
I'm sure that even you must have seen relationships (abusive ones),where one person has tried with all their heart, and the pain just doesn't end. My sincere question is "How long?" To what lengths do you go when it is damaging both people?
Thank you for what you shared here. I'm sure it will touch many hearts.
God Bless you,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/21/2004 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Marriage
My heart goes out to you. And to your wife. I won't try to tell you what to do. In no way do I underestimate your hurts. But after some thought it seems worth saying that some things don't change with situations. Recognizing them does not make things simpler. But thinking about marriage without clear understanding of its nature and potential just leaves us "tossed on waves" or blown around by surface winds. We need to have bearings based on reality. And we need to know what is possible. Hopefully with no pretense, let me make a few remarks...
Created by God is how scripture regards marriage. But we don't all marry. What can be said that pertains to all of us? Well, humanity is "created male and female." And that is the true nature of our humanity -- married or not. The Christian school I teach in has many single women who work tirelessly with special education kids of all ages and difficulties. They commit themselves to serving others in sacrificial ways that marriage would limit. But especially with them I can see that humanity is the combination of male and female contribution, perspective. And the wonderful essence that results when female contributes to male and male contributes to female defines all of our humanity. It constructs the well from which we all draw. God created it that way.
It is sometimes tempting to try to have it the "male way" or its counterpart; but as Paul writes about the Body of Christ "the strength with which every joint supplies" lies in how the bricks work together to form the house. Strong bricks with weak mortar don't cut it. Sacrificing "individuality" to become more truly a "person" is in order. I've seen this at work successfully in organizations like schools and churches, and in sports teams. This can be most clearly seen the Bible where Christ says, "Unless a man take up his cross and follow me..." When Paul mentions the Church (Christ's Body) and Marriage he does not make a comparison, but blurts out that they are one in the same "mystery." They are part of the same sacrifice of self to become part of something that God is building.
Marriage can both be said to be a "sacrament" and observed to not be on -- depending on the instance under consideration. I like to say that it is a "potential sacrament." It can 'become' one, but it also has to 'stay' one. No magic. Hard work. But the value is intrinsic -- a gold mine.
Marriage is both something within the church and outside of the church. It is something between men and between citizen and government, and community. And it is also something between humanity and the community of God. Historically there have been lots of different combinations, from marriages as strictly a civil contract, to marriage officiated only by the state church. But big ideas of what marriage is fails to help us. Ultimately a marriage is between THREE persons: the man, the woman, and God. Good or bad, these three are involved. Union with God is the same as becoming the most fully oneself. And that is the same as being "grafted onto the Vine." Living as a male alone, with no community of any sort with the "other half" results in inner sickness. Again, we need each other. Since we can't love God without loving our neighbor, loving the community of humans we are in is also loving God.
Being in a marriage is hard. Life is hard. Even for Adam and Eve--even without sin--life had its growth-producing challenges. Tone for muscles, character for the individual, and community for the group all require discipline, practice and help,
You say you feel faced with a seemingly huge obstacle. Perhaps you are. But think for a moment that it is not a "monolith." Those big stones in England, "Stonehenge" are monoliths. They are all one piece ('mono') and they are not part of what it around them any more than what is around them is a part of them. But marriage, just like the church and the community of humanity is not monolithic. For good or for bad we are inseparably a part of each other. Sink or swim.
For one thing, you cannot escape your maleness. Neither can you escape your need for femininity either one-on-one (even grandmotherly counts--pass the pie!) nor in community. Also, you cannot escape your need for community. Marriage is a unique community, something that some Christian mystics sometimes regard as a kind of church, when it functions right. Prayers, Paul says, can be heard or not heard according to the marital relationship.
What you have been in marriage would not stop outside of it. Hurt tends to bend us inwards. In society the broken-from-marriage must struggle to balance interest in themselves with compassion for others. A couple in my own family divorced; and while the former wife remarried successfully, while the husband's next marriage failed, and his third remains intact. (He and his present wife now attend the same suburban church as his first wife--a good church for those who hurt.) I've heard that those who succeed in their second marriage often believe that what they had to learn in that second marriage to make it work probably would have saved their first marriage too. Marriage has its mix of opposites and similarities. It’s learning to make it work, and learning that the rewards come from "sacrifices" that would be necessary whether in marriage or single anyways that shows us a crack-through-the-door into heaven. "Unless a grain of wheat fall and die it cannot bear fruit."
Whether you still love each other some in the "same way" that you did originally doesn't matter. Underneath that is the humanity that you cannot trade in. Humanity doesn't swap; it just shrinks or grows. For the two of you perhaps the pain has made it shrink. But if you realize that your union is a POTENTIAL sacrament (a door handle onto what can be opened up) of what it means for humanity to grow and be blessed, and to be united with God in love that cannot be destroyed -- selfless love -- then you can begin to spot the presence of God as that THIRD PERSON in your marriage. No way that any one human can live life under their own power. In the end we die. "Our help comes from the Lord." My own wedding vows contained "...with God's help..." God will keep you afloat while he graces your wife through your sacrifices. And he won't let you die inwardly in the process.
Billy Graham said that reading the Bible (try Psalms) and prayer are two things that he never missed in any day since he was saved. Add discipleship and you have the three things the dessert monks regarded as essential for growing in Christ. Bible, prayer and discipline.
Start with this simple monastic prayer: "Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner."
And after a while add this prayer to the Holy Spirit: "O Heavenly King, the comforter, the spirit of Truth, Who art present everywhere and fillest all things; Treasury of Blessings and Giver of Life; come and abide in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O Gracious One
There is no place that we can flee to and not find God. Even in our marriages! God's Spirit is "everywhere present, filling all things." And it’s a good thing too. We have lots of stains to be cleaned, and brokenness to be healed. We need our souls saved!!!
So, practically speaking for a moment . . . if you flee, you will only bring yourself with you. And you need all those in the community around you to heal. Doing so together is best. Divorce is never part of God's plan. Mercy says it can be done. But those who do require lots of discipline to go along with their healing. To flee just to please one's self is to denounce a union that includes God as one of the three persons. And while God will never abandon you (which means that he will continue attempting to discipline you through 'hard knocks' in order to save your soul) you can abandon God.
Make this a matter for the Church, some counseling that is BOTH God-fearing AND professional. (No self-appointed quacks, amateur pastors; nor liberals trying to untie the knot in a least painful way.)
Forgive me if I have said too much.
I'll pray for the two of you, and your church.
- PotOnWheel
This is probably the most wonderful, godly advise I have ever read on marriage.
Thank you pow. I will share this with the leadership in our church. I love how it ties marriage and the body of Christ together.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/21/2004 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Thank, Jo-anne!
Please pardon the commercial!
May I relate a book. Its by a man who was widdowed and remarried, and a Russian-Orthodox seminary professor in Paris. (in a wonderfully ecumenical place and time, with fellowship among refugies across lines drawn by geography and misunderstanding...) Paul Evdokimov wrote a book called "Woman and the Salvation of the World" that my formerlyProtestandbrotherinlaw who is now an Orthodox priest uses in teaching his "Anthropology" class in an Orthodox seminary. That's really good!!!! But, the book that I'd recommend -- if you can handle reading something not from your own denomination -- is "The Sacrament of Love" by Paul Evdokimov.
quote:
Try clicking here.........
http://secure.svspress.com/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&keywords=evdokimov&osCsid=97d47f625a2ced4fa7847544c08c4955&x=10&y=10
The Sacrament of Love 
Woman and Salvation of the World 
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/21/2004 9:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/21/2004 11:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by might-be-don
quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Your wife is more important than your pastor.
Us men like power, influence, control. Women like to embrace, nurture, etc. If she has red lights and bells going off, then TAKE HER SERIOUSLY.
poTOnWHeEl has said well.
Humble yourself, sometimes this means before your wife. Consider that your devotion to your position and pastor might be in error. God could be using your wife to speak wisdom to your soul.
This came very clear to me when I had a fight with my ( then 8 year old ) daughter. She pointed out to me how I was wrong and God spoke to me that I couldn't resist the words of truth she spoke even though I was the one in "authority" . Trust me, not easy to humble yourself in that kind of situation.
Maybe leaving the 99 ( your church position & preference ) in pursuit of the one ( your wife ) will gain it all for you.
peace, don
I'll drink to, er, third that thought. Go to your wife's church. Don't meet your wife halfway, meet her on her doorstep. Don't you think God would BLESS this?!?!?!?!?!? As the MAN in the relationship, God expects you to make the FIRST step and make the BIGGER sacrifice. Bank on it.
Your fellow brothers are praying for you.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/21/2004 11:19 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare.
She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.
Hello barryatk,
I have found, one of the worse things you can do to a marriage is to play the “divorce” card trying to force your partner’s hand. The internal warfare of our minds is most often found in private pity parties hosted by the enemy himself. As long as you buy into believing that divorce is an option, then the enemy will leverage it against your marriage. If out of the corner of your eye you envision bliss with a new partner, then you will weaken the clarity needed to see the true beauty of your bride. It is NOT God that turns your eyes elsewhere disguised as a means to end your “suffering”. The enemy comes to kill and destroy all that is lovely. The enemy is not your wife, for she is your love, your beautiful bride. Turn away from your self and see the heart of your wife that reflects the image of God and His love. He is always teaching us how to love, and the sacrament of marriage is a daily field test. Wake up and remember the dream you once had for her heart and focus your eyes on rekindling the flame of her shattered heart. You are called to bring her good spirits and to protect her. See the little girl in her eyes, remembering, we are all children of God.
I pray that the healing love of God’s touch will trace the cracks of your hearts.
Blessings,
Mark
Spark,
This is wise, and very beautifully voiced. I appreciate your heart in this, and I can see where the Father is using you to help strengthen and build marriages.
You're right. If only we could see sometimes, our vision unclouded by the enemy, and all of his wiles. He is constantly seeking to steal, kill and destroy, and honestly - sometimes I believe we forget that.
If we can step back from the pain, and see with new eyes, it can change things.
I'm sure that even you must have seen relationships (abusive ones),where one person has tried with all their heart, and the pain just doesn't end. My sincere question is "How long?" To what lengths do you go when it is damaging both people?
Thank you for what you shared here. I'm sure it will touch many hearts.
God Bless you,
Jo-Anne
Thanks Jo-Anne for the kind words.
But as far as the abuse, I apologize for not being clear in my prior statements. I would certainly not want to lead anyone to think physical abuse was acceptable in the name of keeping a marriage together, or any other reason for that matter. You ask "how long", I say the right time to end such abuse is like yesterday, immediately!
Peace,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/21/2004 4:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Thank, Jo-anne!
Please pardon the commercial!
May I relate a book. Its by a man who was widdowed and remarried, and a Russian-Orthodox seminary professor in Paris. (in a wonderfully ecumenical place and time, with fellowship among refugies across lines drawn by geography and misunderstanding...) Paul Evdokimov wrote a book called "Woman and the Salvation of the World" that my formerlyProtestandbrotherinlaw who is now an Orthodox priest uses in teaching his "Anthropology" class in an Orthodox seminary. That's really good!!!! But, the book that I'd recommend -- if you can handle reading something not from your own denomination -- is "The Sacrament of Love" by Paul Evdokimov.
quote:
Try clicking here.........
http://secure.svspress.com/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&keywords=evdokimov&osCsid=97d47f625a2ced4fa7847544c08c4955&x=10&y=10
The Sacrament of Love
Woman and Salvation of the World
You're welcome POW, and thank you for the book recommendations. I love reading. I'm reading two books at present, one by Dr. James Richards called "Breaking the Cycle" It is about transformation. The other, I'm sure you've heard of. It's called "What's So Amazing About Grace" (Phillip Yancey). I read a book by a rabbi, that I thought was wonderful about marriage and intimacy. The man is not a believer, but his book was great. It is called Kosher Sex, but don't be shocked. It's not what it sounds like (no pictures). It is just a wonderful book on marriage and intimacy (spiritual as well as physical) in marriage. I would recommend it to every married couple.
I just got some other books that I ordered from Amazon: The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman, Holy Transformation by Chip Ingram, Sheet Music by Leman (another marriage book about intimacy...I've found in pastoral care that few people are willing to "go there" in discussion, and it is neglected - so it is good to have books to recommend), "Angry People" by Warren Wiersbe and several copies of "Not Even A Hint" by Joshua Harris (a book about sexual purity for teens). We have some teens in our church that need these kind of resources, and adults willing to discuss them with them. Do you teach in an elementary or high school?
Anyway, as you can see, I'm not "denominational." I was Southern Baptist about 7 years ago (wonderful bunch, but none here), and now am non-denom. I love where we are at as a church. I would never have begun exploring the open view, if I weren't "open" to other things.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne (It is wonderful to have people recommend books and other resources here. I really appreciate that about the board). 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/21/2004 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Oops 
I think I may have gotten slightly carried away rambling on about books!
Marriage is a sensitive subject, one that needs to be handled delicately at times. Sometimes I think we avoid talking about these things, and I wonder if that isn't why divorce rates are so high (one reason why). People do not find the support that they need, when they need it. I wonder as well how many people are afraid to share their struggle for fear of judgement?
Jo-Anne
Most men don't read self-help books.
A little thing called pride usually gets in the way. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/21/2004 5:15 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare.
She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.
Hello barryatk,
I have found, one of the worse things you can do to a marriage is to play the “divorce” card trying to force your partner’s hand. The internal warfare of our minds is most often found in private pity parties hosted by the enemy himself. As long as you buy into believing that divorce is an option, then the enemy will leverage it against your marriage. If out of the corner of your eye you envision bliss with a new partner, then you will weaken the clarity needed to see the true beauty of your bride. It is NOT God that turns your eyes elsewhere disguised as a means to end your “suffering”. The enemy comes to kill and destroy all that is lovely. The enemy is not your wife, for she is your love, your beautiful bride. Turn away from your self and see the heart of your wife that reflects the image of God and His love. He is always teaching us how to love, and the sacrament of marriage is a daily field test. Wake up and remember the dream you once had for her heart and focus your eyes on rekindling the flame of her shattered heart. You are called to bring her good spirits and to protect her. See the little girl in her eyes, remembering, we are all children of God.
I pray that the healing love of God’s touch will trace the cracks of your hearts.
Blessings,
Mark
Spark,
This is wise, and very beautifully voiced. I appreciate your heart in this, and I can see where the Father is using you to help strengthen and build marriages.
You're right. If only we could see sometimes, our vision unclouded by the enemy, and all of his wiles. He is constantly seeking to steal, kill and destroy, and honestly - sometimes I believe we forget that.
If we can step back from the pain, and see with new eyes, it can change things.
I'm sure that even you must have seen relationships (abusive ones),where one person has tried with all their heart, and the pain just doesn't end. My sincere question is "How long?" To what lengths do you go when it is damaging both people?
Thank you for what you shared here. I'm sure it will touch many hearts.
God Bless you,
Jo-Anne
Thanks Jo-Anne for the kind words.
But as far as the abuse, I apologize for not being clear in my prior statements. I would certainly not want to lead anyone to think physical abuse was acceptable in the name of keeping a marriage together, or any other reason for that matter. You ask "how long", I say the right time to end such abuse is like yesterday, immediately!
Peace,
Mark
Thanks Mark,
I'm not surprised that you feel that way, and I agree. But now - what about abuse that is ongoing that is not physical? Emotional/verbal abuse can be equally or more damaging than physcial abuse. Again (the six million dollar question), "how long?"
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/22/2004 4:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Again (the six million dollar question), "how long?"
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Yes, How Long is a Chinaman.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/22/2004 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/22/2004 6:16 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Most men don't read self-help books.
How would we even be able to find a self-help book in the store? 
Stick them in the magazine section.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 6/22/2004 6:20 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 6/22/2004 7:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey everybody!
I am overwhelmed at the great love, wisdom, counsel, openness, prayer, and advice coming through these posts. I love to be advised about books to read. A few of my favorite authors on this subject are Harville Hendrix, Rosbergs, Friel and Friel, Mike Mason, Paul Tournier, Paul Meyer, Archibald Hart...
I use the net in a library and am only given a short time. Plus, I work and am taking this as a lunch break time.
Very thankful to all your kindnesses and also to the confrontational aspects.
ON THE Go to wife's church... my pastor's wife asked me if I had considered this, as I was eating with the 2 of them and my brother. I said I had. My pastor acted very surprised. I had been to lunch with the 3 pastors of my wife's church, asking if they would counsel us. They really thought my church and pastor were improper. As the church is small, meets in an unusual setting, not having a building, pastor is bivocational, and my family has said stuff to these pastors. They were very harsh and even said satan is loose in my house. Lately wife has wondered if we could both start at a new church. I truly feel very called, very fulfilled, yet very lonely cause my whole family in this thing are cross toward my pastor and lay the blame at his feet for my p[laying the divorce card. Too we have a history of a couple years at a church before something bugs us and we leave. I feel compelled to not redo this trend, yet I am considering the possibility.
The thing of listing needs I think is marvy. We've done this and I read extensively what such perceived needs are among spouses. Jefscot and I talked about some of this and has been very helpful. I think it ludicrous(sp?) for anyone to just weigh in with "divorce or don't divorce". I'm just very helped to hear so many that realize it is not simple, not soooo simple that 5 minutes of consideration will be enough to advise.
I just feeel like I have a huge community praying anf caring...thank you.
It's like being in a big church, but being able to be more open, cause no one hear can get tooo embarrassed.
These issues are lifelong and I know they won't be resolved in a one shot zap from God. I don't expect anything easy, I just expect to keep trying.
Thanks Again You All Bless Me | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 6/22/2004 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Now I guess this may be unusual for this site, but I'd like feedback on what the point is when God would OK a divorce.
quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
I think it ludicrous(sp?) for anyone to just weigh in with "divorce or don't divorce".
Yes, it's funny how the question and answer thing works around here.
quote:
These issues are lifelong and I know they won't be resolved in a one shot zap from God. I don't expect anything easy, I just expect to keep trying.
God bless you. | | Back to Top | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 6/22/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | To all especially Wade and Moon River,
Things are interesting. My pastor may read these postings and comment himself. Did I get it right that Wade is new to writing comments here?
One thing that would make this so much easier would be of we both could be more accepting of the other's varied views. I had once studied psychology with a plan to eventually counsel, later I was encouraged to drop the whole thing as worldly, or demonic even. I did do that... then I guess I'd credit John Eldredge's "Wild at Heart" book with arousing again this interest in behavior. I have an intense passion for people, both saved and lost. I just feel there is such hope for anyone who will come to God honestly and try to be open to who and what He is. I've recently learned that Augustine taught that all truth comes from God alone. It seems he encouraged study of many streams and authors, believing that the benefits of more knowledge outweighed the dangers of falsehood. This has been a key thing in our conflicts. I will read nearly any author, especially if they are endorsed by others I know and admire, believing that the truth gained is "good" truth. Just days ago my wife listed brashly several that she'd highly discourage me from reading...just saying I do and I enjoy them results in arguing. SO here comes another point ... can it be that I feel and am called to pursue this and she says it is simply not God?
Well, my pastor advised me months back to not debate... and I've tried to avoid it. I just get frustrated as she engages the kids, 26,24,22,16 into her views and it seems I end up the "weird-o". Is it "dying to self" to just back off and say nothing?
Again, thanks so much, Jo-Anne and Wade. I pray also to Christ that you are rewarded for believing it is worth it all to seek Him. These letters and comments are very entreating to me . I feel as thought I've had an intense time in Christ these last few days... as though there's not so much space and difference between us all but that we are community. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/22/2004 9:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
To all especially Wade and Moon River,
Things are interesting. My pastor may read these postings and comment himself. Did I get it right that Wade is new to writing comments here?
One thing that would make this so much easier would be of we both could be more accepting of the other's varied views. I had once studied psychology with a plan to eventually counsel, later I was encouraged to drop the whole thing as worldly, or demonic even. I did do that... then I guess I'd credit John Eldredge's "Wild at Heart" book with arousing again this interest in behavior. I have an intense passion for people, both saved and lost. I just feel there is such hope for anyone who will come to God honestly and try to be open to who and what He is. I've recently learned that Augustine taught that all truth comes from God alone. It seems he encouraged study of many streams and authors, believing that the benefits of more knowledge outweighed the dangers of falsehood. This has been a key thing in our conflicts. I will read nearly any author, especially if they are endorsed by others I know and admire, believing that the truth gained is "good" truth. Just days ago my wife listed brashly several that she'd highly discourage me from reading...just saying I do and I enjoy them results in arguing. SO here comes another point ... can it be that I feel and am called to pursue this and she says it is simply not God?
Well, my pastor advised me months back to not debate... and I've tried to avoid it. I just get frustrated as she engages the kids, 26,24,22,16 into her views and it seems I end up the "weird-o". Is it "dying to self" to just back off and say nothing?
Again, thanks so much, Jo-Anne and Wade. I pray also to Christ that you are rewarded for believing it is worth it all to seek Him. These letters and comments are very entreating to me . I feel as thought I've had an intense time in Christ these last few days... as though there's not so much space and difference between us all but that we are community.
Hi Barry,
I'm still praying. Yes, Wade's response to you was the first, and only time he has posted on the board. He felt compelled to write to you, and I am so glad he did.
Being vulnerable has both risks and rewards, but in loving community, the rewards outweigh the risks. I guess that is just what the Father decided when He created with freewill so that we could be part of a loving community with Him - He knew the reward would outweigh the risk.
Wade has been reading Wild At Heart. I read (and loved) The Sacred Romance, Journey of Desire and Waking The Dead. I love John Eldredge's style of writing, and His passion and perspective on our relationship with the Father. He was one of those authors that "lit a fire" under my walk with the Father. I've given The Sacred Romance away to several teenage girls, including my daughter. I've loved reading Larry Crabb's books, John Sanders, Clark Pinnock, and of course, Gregory Boyd's books. The book that I'm reading now is amazing. It is called Breaking the Cycle - Dr. James Richards. It reminds me of "Seeing is Believing" by Dr Boyd because it talks about living from who we are in Christ. Not who we THINK we are, but who He says we are, and it is transforming to recognize that He is our righteousness. I hope that is encouraging to both of you as you go through this trial by fire, that there is nothing you can do or not do that will change who you are in Him (your righteousness), and His love for you.
Just reading these posts is encouraging for me as well. You realize that some struggles are common to all of us. That we are on this journey to the Father together, and that we can be "there" for each other, even though we've never met. I find that amazing. You begin to understand that the Spirit goes beyond what is "reasonable." You can actually love someone in Christ that you have never met. That is supernatural.
Wade & I actually planned to meet and encourage a young couple from Juneau, AK. She was posting here. They were youth pastors, and needed some encouragement. Unfortunately (though we went and waited to see if they might show up), I don't think she got my e-mail. She has since quit posting on the board, but once they are moved and settled again, I'm sure we'll see her back.
I'm glad you feel you're not alone. Sounds like you are dealing with a great deal of misunderstanding. Even though there are no quick or easy answers - there are answers. Some of them are uncovered just spending time resting in Christ as Dr Boyd suggests. Sometimes we just try to hard, and need to cease striving "and know that He is God."
I'll hand this over to Wade soon, and let him respond as well.
I do know one thing, that as painful as things are right now for you, that can change. I know that. I also know that it doesn't always happen. It truly does sound like you have a good heart and that you are passionate about your Father. He's passionate about you too. He won't let you down. Sometimes it is hard to let go of dreams, but if we can (even if they're shattered to pieces), He can replace them with something far sweeter than what we could imagine. We have that kind of Father.
Be of good courage. Take heart. We'll continue praying. Jesus is interceding on your behalf as well. It's good to remember that. I pray that the Father will give you His peace, and that you will hear His Spirit speaking to you, encouraging, gently leading the way, and loving you the whole time. I pray that He will give you new insights, that He will refresh you, that He will being peace and joy to you both as you seek Him. I pray that you will enjoy His presence like you've never enjoyed it before, that your times with Him will be sweet, that He will meet your deepest needs and longings, and that you will know that you are complete and whole in Him, no matter what storms rage around you. His love is the anchor when we are being tossed to and fro. I know you believe that. I pray that you will experience it as well.
God Bless you Barryatk. If you were here, I'd give you a shoulder hug and pray for you. Call on us anytime if you like. Wade would be glad to talk with you. That's an open invitation.
Good night and God Bless,
Jo-Anne (Wade's better half )
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/23/2004 3:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Barry, Here is Billy Graham's reading recommendation list.
Of course this does not mean you don't read other things too; but take this as a "medicinal minimum!" You seem affected strongly by what you read. (Intellectual mood-swings? . . . OK, bad analogy.) So this "medicinal minimum" might be a very good idea.
Here it is:
- One chapter of Proverbs -- DAILY
- Five chapters of Psalms -- DAILY
This puts you through both books once per month.
It is also far more than you can control intellectually. You have to read them many, many, many months, and let your heart and prayers begin to wrap around them.
Resiste the tempration to let intellectual moodswings catapult you into trying to "use" protions to prove your point with your wife.
Back in the early seventies the Bible Study on Friday nights that I was part of had a rule -- and it was hard-fast. You coulgn't bring something that you'd learned from scripture until you had prayerfully let it become part of your live. Bringing "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God" was easy to do that with. As was "Count it all joy my brethern when you encounter various trials..." But the issue of how many angels could dance on the head of a pin (A Baptist's guardian-angels don't dance!) never came up.
Take care.
----------
BTW -- my retired-pastor father-in-law's advice to his son the night before his wedding was to say "I'm sorry." a lot. You might use this when you find yourself at the top of the arguing slide with your wife. Say: "I'm sorry. I'm doing it again." It might go a long ways.
Bill Cosby's advice on his TV show was great!!! | | Back to Top | | |
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 6/23/2004 9:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Wade , Moon-river, Pow, etal:
This is addicting. I just feel like I'm gleaning and being gleaned regarding marriage and spirituality. The book list alone will change my life. It just warms my heart to see all the input and care.
Here's another queastion I have: how and who to talk to about troubles? I talk to Christ. I talk to friends and family. When I am asked what I said to who and when it often becomes another sore spot. This is very complex top me, I'm guessing many will say just apply the Golden Rule... I know the bad feeling of being the subject of conversation with lots a sour notes. I know too the pain of keeping heartbreak inside with no human to share. Today I admitted that maybe I allowed pastor to become friend, counselor, business assocaite...and it may have been a bad idea, cause now my wife feels he knows so much aboiut it all that she's staying away forever.
I relate to dislike of being probed, challenged or jjudged...but I also know the need to get some things really into the open.
I've been on the read only "Bible" program a few times. I think it best to always read it first, but not to abruptly rule out the wisdom in other books. I have a strong agreement that the Holy Spirit still moves on mankind to produce His Words of Life. They can be as anointed as anything else printed on a page!
I sense as I read thru these posts that there is a good mix of beliefs, church backgrounds, and loving hearts. I've been so tired with people trying to always set me and others straight which means do it "Their" way.
Blessings All | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 6/23/2004 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
I have a strong agreement that the Holy Spirit still moves on mankind to produce His Words of Life. They can be as anointed as anything else printed on a page!
Just judge the "anoiting" by the fruit. Unless it does something real and sustained in you that matches Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance AND faith... then it is just a pie in the sky notion -- one that feels good for a season.
Remember that OAKS grow slowly..... Remember that Sitka Spruce (think guitar tops) wood has lines so close together because it stands up to those Siberian winds in Alaska.....
Count on the "anointing" mainly not being ideas, but endurance in the midst of pressure. Pressure to knock off the rough edges, and to create a diamond.
No doubt. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/23/2004 3:16 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Hey Wade , Moon-river, Pow, etal:
This is addicting. I just feel like I'm gleaning and being gleaned regarding marriage and spirituality. The book list alone will change my life. It just warms my heart to see all the input and care.
Here's another queastion I have: how and who to talk to about troubles? I talk to Christ. I talk to friends and family. When I am asked what I said to who and when it often becomes another sore spot. This is very complex top me, I'm guessing many will say just apply the Golden Rule... I know the bad feeling of being the subject of conversation with lots a sour notes. I know too the pain of keeping heartbreak inside with no human to share. Today I admitted that maybe I allowed pastor to become friend, counselor, business assocaite...and it may have been a bad idea, cause now my wife feels he knows so much aboiut it all that she's staying away forever.
I relate to dislike of being probed, challenged or jjudged...but I also know the need to get some things really into the open.
I've been on the read only "Bible" program a few times. I think it best to always read it first, but not to abruptly rule out the wisdom in other books. I have a strong agreement that the Holy Spirit still moves on mankind to produce His Words of Life. They can be as anointed as anything else printed on a page!
I sense as I read thru these posts that there is a good mix of beliefs, church backgrounds, and loving hearts. I've been so tired with people trying to always set me and others straight which means do it "Their" way.
Blessings All
The Bible is wonderful. Listening to the Spirit or just resting in who you are in Him. That in itself is so healing. Most of the books that I read are full of scripture, and many of them have had a transforming impact on my life. They also direct me to scripture constantly.
Friends. If you have one safe place in your life to bare your soul - then you are so blessed. That is rare. I'm talking about one friend who still sees you as Christ sees you, no matter what you tell him, and who will not tell another living soul (without asking you first). A woman is not a good idea, unless paired with a couple, or as a counsellor. Being able to have a friend of the opposite gender is possible, but rare. And definitely not a good idea when you are emotionally vulnerable, and dynamite if she is emotionally vulverable as well. (You probably knew that).
This is a safe place to get insights and prayer from both genders. One thing that I think is wise is to agree on that safe place together, if possible. You do need to be able to get these things out. Make sure that the person you are sharing with is able to handle these things emotionally, and that you have confidence that they will not judge or try to direct you, without you going to the Father yourself for answers. Sometimes people feel that they really do want to "make things better" for you. That is natural, and understandable, but not always wise. It is hard to watch a friend in pain. Look at Eliphaz and Job's other friends. They started out with such empathy and sincerity. They sat grieving in silence for 7 days (obviously they had just a little too much time to think, because what happened next was not helpful), then began to share their "perceptions" and their quick fixes to Job's dilemna, even to judge their righteous friend as unrighteous. Amazing eh? The most righteous man in the world was sitting right in front of them, and they were guessing as to what he must've done to deserve what he was getting.
I guess the most important thing to remember (IMHO) is that you are righteous. Nothing will change that. Not what you do, or don't do. And He is with you. There are forces all around us (human and non-human) that affect what were going through, as well as the complexity of creation. Sometimes, when we have done all that we can do, we have to let go and see what God can do in our situation.
Now, I'm starting to sound like Mrs Fixit, and I don't want to do the very thing I was just talking about...so, I'll leave having said this much, probably too much, and just keep praying.
I'm glad you are encouraged by this. This is a good idea.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne (We're having a tropical heat wave in the frozen north).
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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