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Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 10/11/2004 2:36 PM (GMT -6)

Lock,

quote:
You are correct. God can bring about evil without sinning. But my point still stands that God brings about evil to suit His purposes, which are righteous. I am questioning the statement that God has nothing to do with evil, which is a contracdiction to the scriptures stated above.

When the State renders evil for evil for the purpose of deterrence, it's still true that the State would prefer that there be NO evil (assuming, of course, that the State is a just one). Your view has God purposing evil from the get-go, in which case He never preferred that there be NO evil.

wjs

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/12/2004 11:22 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by jefscott

Lock,

quote:
You are correct. God can bring about evil without sinning. But my point still stands that God brings about evil to suit His purposes, which are righteous. I am questioning the statement that God has nothing to do with evil, which is a contracdiction to the scriptures stated above.

When the State renders evil for evil for the purpose of deterrence, it's still true that the State would prefer that there be NO evil (assuming, of course, that the State is a just one). Your view has God purposing evil from the get-go, in which case He never preferred that there be NO evil.

Jeff-

I believe God has a purpose for evil in the world. I believe that evil and sin are temporary and will only be around long enough to suit God's purpose for them. A person knows what is is to feel well, only because they know how it feels to be sick. We know what is good contrasted with what we know is bad. We are creatures of contrast. In order to know the righteousness of God, we must compared our own unrighteousness. To know the extreme kindness of God, we must compare it to the evil produced by mankind. In order to display His love for the world, God gave his only Son. This could not be unless sin entered the world. There will be a point when there will be no evil, when all is reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 10/12/2004 3:27 PM (GMT -6)

Lock,

quote:
A person knows what is is to feel well, only because they know how it feels to be sick. We know what is good contrasted with what we know is bad. We are creatures of contrast. In order to know the righteousness of God, we must compared our own unrighteousness.

When I eat chocolate pie, I know it's really good without thinking one iota about unpleasantness for contrast! Eyebrow

wjs

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/12/2004 4:42 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by jefscott

Lock,

quote:
A person knows what is is to feel well, only because they know how it feels to be sick. We know what is good contrasted with what we know is bad. We are creatures of contrast. In order to know the righteousness of God, we must compared our own unrighteousness.

When I eat chocolate pie, I know it's really good without thinking one iota about unpleasantness for contrast!

But, that chocolate pie (chocolate cookies for me) would look all that much more pleasant when sitting next to a plate of brussel sprouts! Eyebrow

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 10/13/2004 1:47 AM (GMT -6)

Lock,

quote:
But, that chocolate pie (chocolate cookies for me) would look all that much more pleasant when sitting next to a plate of brussel sprouts!

The point is, there are plenty of pleasures in life that are experienced as pleasure without contrasting them with unpleasantness. Though I would agree that, in some cases, contrast can add an element of value to an experience. Surely, we won't have to remember this evil age in the age to come just to experience pleasure.

wjs

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/25/2004 7:42 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by jefscott

Lock,

quote:
But, that chocolate pie (chocolate cookies for me) would look all that much more pleasant when sitting next to a plate of brussel sprouts!

The point is, there are plenty of pleasures in life that are experienced as pleasure without contrasting them with unpleasantness. Though I would agree that, in some cases, contrast can add an element of value to an experience. Surely, we won't have to remember this evil age in the age to come just to experience pleasure.

Consider Adam and Eve's situation. Did they truly know how good they had it? How could they? What did they have to compare their experience with? Of course they could look at from hindsight and say they have it good, but while they were in the garden did they truly know how good they had it? I would say, "No, they didn't" and that this may have contributed to the temptation by Satan.
Now consider the appreciation we will have and the love we will have for God when we experience life with Him as contrasted with our experience here on earth.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 7:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Consider Adam and Eve's situation. Did they truly know how good they had it? How could they? What did they have to compare their experience with?

Do you appreciate being alive?

Why? Have you been dead?

Did you appreciate having parents?

Why? Were you an orphan before?

Do you appreciate living in the U.S.?

Why? Have you lived in every other country in the world?

Do you prefer mud over water for drinking?

Shall we sin that grace may abound? oops, Paul already handled that argument.

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 8:08 AM (GMT -6)

Lock, do you give gifts to your kids and then take the gifts away JUST SO THEY KNEW HOW GOOD THEY HAD IT?

LOL

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 8:13 AM (GMT -6)

Lock,

I haven't been following this thread and still haven't read it. But when I see the mocking comments like those of Moderators Second Cousin, its obvious that you must be doing pretty well.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 8:19 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake

Lock,

I haven't been following this thread and still haven't read it. But when I see the mocking comments like those of Moderators Second Cousin, its obvious that you must be doing pretty well.

Shouldn't you be composing your next veiled attack on Boyd?

Or better yet, ponder how a pastor, who can't successfully govern his household, could possibly govern a church.

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/25/2004 8:20 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Consider Adam and Eve's situation. Did they truly know how good they had it? How could they? What did they have to compare their experience with?

Do you appreciate being alive?

Why? Have you been dead?

Did you appreciate having parents?

Why? Were you an orphan before?

Do you appreciate living in the U.S.?

Why? Have you lived in every other country in the world?

Do you prefer mud over water for drinking?

Shall we sin that grace may abound? oops, Paul already handled that argument.

I appreciate life after attending a funeral. Everytime I complain about having to speak with my Mom, my wife reminds me that I still have one (which she does not). I thank God for being born in the USA whenever I see the conditions that others must contend with in other countries. I appreciated filterd water over tap water, city water over well water for obvious reasons. Finally, where did I tell anyone to sin more so that they will have more grace (even though Christ still died for those sins also)? Your example of the gifts for my kids is backwards; The evil we experience during this life will be in sharp contrast with God's goodness, our unrighteousness with God's righteousness, etc.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 8:23 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Finally, where did I tell anyone to sin more so that they will have more grace ?

It's the contrast. The more you sin, the more you'll appreciate grace, according to your "logic".

Can we hear what sinning and separation from God is like from someone else then? No need for us to experience it ourselves?

All the examples you presented were by proxy, not your actual experiences.

Eyebrow

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 8:53 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake

Lock,

I haven't been following this thread and still haven't read it. But when I see the mocking comments like those of Moderators Second Cousin, its obvious that you must be doing pretty well.

Shouldn't you be composing your next veiled attack on Boyd?

Or better yet, ponder how a pastor, who can't successfully govern his household, could possibly govern a church.

Another great example of something defective with this site or at least some of its participants.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 9:10 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:

Or better yet, ponder how a pastor, who can't successfully govern his household, could possibly govern a church.

Another great example of something defective with this site or at least some of its participants.

It's always easier to dish it out, isn't it...

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 9:31 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:

Or better yet, ponder how a pastor, who can't successfully govern his household, could possibly govern a church.

Another great example of something defective with this site or at least some of its participants.

It's always easier to dish it out, isn't it...

I think that if you wish to discuss a matter, then discuss it openly and without "mocking." If you wish to discuss and criticize my life, then start a thread and deal with it factually. I am sure there is much I can learn form the process and there are those here that will be constructive. If you wish to criticize my pastor or my friend, let's be open and transparent and deal with the facts and the scriptures.

If you wish to hide behind simple mocking and "dish it out, then at least have the guts to sign it with your real name and address and not "hide" behind some pseudonym. Lacking the courage to even sign your own name to your mocking is called cowardice and I consider it a shameful behavior. This kind of behavior is common in the system of church that I am a refugee from. It is this kind of "confidentiality" that I warn Jo-Ann of as destructive. Hiding behind a pseudonym seems a defective way to approach mocking criticism of me, Lock, or anybody else on this board. My criticsm of "your dishing it out" was factually based with an example that you provided. This is different that malicalicious innuendo, which is disappointing to observe here.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 9:44 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Lacking the courage to even sign your own name

Sure thing, "spenlake". Big Smile

Kids, take this LSD, then you'll REALLY appreciate being drug free.

LOL

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 9:48 AM (GMT -6)

Instead of thinking God does evil in the world, in order that we might appreciate the good, maybe God does good in the world, in order that we might appreciate the evil.

I mean if we're going to be stupid, let's really go for it.

Evil

What say ye, Mr. Spen Lake? Can I call you Spen or is that too familiar?

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 10:04 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Lacking the courage to even sign your own name

Sure thing, "spenlake".

Kids, take this LSD, then you'll REALLY appreciate being drug free.

LOL

My name and identity were known to Dr. Boyd before I ever criticized his beliefs (not his character or integrity) as I sent him a personal letter with my concerns which I signed. In as much as he was aware of my name, I didn't think it was too important for the rest of the board. I gave a review on Amazon of his book and, though I didn't have to, I signed my name there as well because I think it is cowardly to have an opinion I wouldn't stand behind in public. In you and your posts I see the mighty "anonymous prophet" who mocks and belittles others without the courage to even sign their name.

That "love" is central to Christianity is a truth that the majority of those who post on this site would agree with. The behavior that I am addressing here in the mocking of others is not an example of the love that is demonstrated and expressed in the gospel. It is much closer to what I would define as "unloving" and "hate."

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 10:06 AM (GMT -6)

Without the contrast of much sin, we can't appreciate the vastness of grace; the more we sin, the more we experience grace.

Let's get on lock's bandwagon and sin so grace may abound.

Borg1

It's all in the contrast...

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 10:09 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
In you and your posts I see the mighty "anonymous prophet" who mocks and belittles others without the courage to even sign their name.

I'm the moderator's second cousin, Leroy al-Zubbabwi Mac-Swenson.

But you can just call me "late for dinner".

Pleased to make your acquaitance, Mr. Lake.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 10:13 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
It is much closer to what I would define as "unloving" and "hate."

The kind of "hate" that attacks other ministries?

"seeker sensitive" churchs
Billy Graham
Bruce Wilkerson
Rick Warren
Catholics
Liberals
"inner healing"
Christian mystics

heck, here's the full list:
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/downloads.php

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 10:18 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
It is much closer to what I would define as "unloving" and "hate."

The kind of "hate" that attacks other ministries?

"seeker sensitive" churchs
Billy Graham
Bruce Wilkerson
Rick Warren
Catholics
Liberals
"inner healing"

heck, here's the full list:
http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/downloads.php

It is my understanding that the criticsms are signed and there is no cowardly hiding under a pseudonym. In addition, there I believe that those who actually will take the time to read the articles will find them more than a simple mocking attack on the character or intelligence of another. Those I have read attempt to deal with specific issues on a factual basis.

I think that if one would take the time to read them, one would find that becoming "for the gospel" message is something that grows and continues to become more central instead of simply "being against." Admittedly, this transition from "against" to "for" sometimes takes some time. Those on this site that are "against hyper-Calvinism" may have some sympathy for the transition period.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 10:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
It is my understanding that the criticsms are signed and there is no cowardly hiding under a pseudonym.

Oh, so signed and dated attacks against other ministries are O.K.

gotcha

Dead

Maybe if your pastor would concentrate on getting lost people into the kingdom instead of dragging other ministries down.

Mr. Leroy al-Zubbabwi Mac-Swenson, October 25, 2004

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 10:29 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
It is my understanding that the criticsms are signed and there is no cowardly hiding under a pseudonym.

Oh, so signed and dated attacks against other ministries are O.K.

gotcha

They may or not be OK based upon the content and claims that are made. They are not, however, cowardly in attempting to hide behind a pseudonym. I can have respect for athiests, Hindus, Mormons and others who believe in what they say enough to sign their names. I may disagree with them, but I can respect them. It is difficult to respect one who would act cowardly regarding even Christianity. Jesus Himself said,

“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 10:32 AM (GMT -6)

Mr. Spen Lake,

I've actually enjoyed and agreed with a number of your posts (inbetween the veiled attacks on Boyd).

What I have to say has NOTHING to do with Boyd or Open Theism, but has everything to do with posting on hosted sites on the internet (since 1989).

NEVER dump on the carpet of your host.

You see a "concern" over "necromancy", or "seeker sensitivity", or "mysticism", or preaching "love", I see a veiled attack.

And I believe I'm not alone.

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