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Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 10:35 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

So "Spen Lake" is written in the Lamb's Book of Life?

Wink

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 10:43 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

Mr. Spen Lake,

I've actually enjoyed and agreed with a number of your posts (inbetween the veiled attacks on Boyd).

What I have to say has NOTHING to do with Boyd or Open Theism, but has everything to do with posting on hosted sites on the internet (since 1989).

NEVER dump on the carpet of your host.

You see a "concern" over "necromancy", or "seeker sensitivity", or "mysticism", or preaching "love", I see a veiled attack.

And I believe I'm not alone.

Mr Moderator,

My attacks are not against Dr. Boyd but against beliefs that he holds that I consider defective. I am allowed to have my opinion and construct an argument based upon facts and my understandings of the scripture. He and his friends and followers are allowed to have their opinions and to deconstruct and dismantle my arguments (some of which they have done extremely well) and to help me to better understand their position. I do not consider this process "evil." In addition, I don't even harbor a dislike for Dr. Boyd. I consider him brilliant, amusing, and even sincere in what he is spendin his life on. I just consider him to be wrong (and only then in certain areas). I give him and the others on this site the freedom to consider me to be wrong and deluded and bring me correction and insights through scriptures to the best of their ability. And I have learned.

Your actions towards me and others on this site go beyond this. At times they have degenerated into something that is ugly to witness. At best it seems a sad reflection on this site. At worst you are sinning against the very thing you love most.

I see no sin in attacking or opposing what I believe to be a defective teaching or idea. I see sin in a mocking and malicious attack on the character and/or intelligence of those you are discussing with.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 10:47 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I see no sin in attacking or opposing what I believe to be a defective teaching or idea. I see sin in a mocking and malicious attack on the character and/or intelligence of those you are discussing with.

And I am attacking your defective ideas.

And with your ideas being mockingly absurd, is that my fault?

Borg1

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 10:58 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

[quote]Originally posted by spenlake
I see no sin in attacking or opposing what I believe to be a defective teaching or idea. I see sin in a mocking and malicious attack on the character and/or intelligence of those you are discussing with.

And I am attacking your defective ideas.

And with your ideas being mockingly absurd, is that my fault?

Moderator says:
Shouldn't you be composing your next veiled attack on Boyd?

Or better yet, ponder how a pastor, who can't successfully govern his household, could possibly govern a church.

Spen says: The only thing that is absurd is your claim that the above quote is attacking defective ideas

The above quote is an example of something more and it is being done anonymously behind what I consider the cowardly use of a pseudonym.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 10:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The above quote is an example of something more and it is being done anonymously behind what I consider the cowardly use of a pseudonym.

You think our ideas are defective.

I think your ideas are defective.

I'm hiding behind a pseudonym.

You're hiding behind a pseudonym.

I own up to both. Do you?

Have I accused anyone of necromancy?

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/25/2004 11:04 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Finally, where did I tell anyone to sin more so that they will have more grace ?

It's the contrast. The more you sin, the more you'll appreciate grace, according to your "logic".

Can we hear what sinning and separation from God is like from someone else then? No need for us to experience it ourselves?

All the examples you presented were by proxy, not your actual experiences.

Let's look st what PAul wrote in answer to this claim...

Romans 6
1 What, then, shall we declare? That we may be persisting in sin that grace should be increasing?
2 May it not be coming to that! We, who died to sin, how shall we still be living in it?
3 Or are you ignorant that whoever are baptized into Christ Jesus, are baptized into His death?
4 We, then, were entombed together with Him through baptism into death, that, even as Christ was roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father, thus we also should be walking in newness of life.

Moderator-

I simply hold to the fact that evil and sin didn't just magically appear in Satan and then man. The idea that God created Satan and man with the plan or hope that they would not sin, makes God a failure because sin was found in them. God has a purpose for sin and evil in the world. The Old Testament is full of references of God using evil and evil creatures to suit His purposes.

How could Adam and Eve have an awareness of how good they had it without something to compare with?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/25/2004 11:05 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
The above quote is an example of something more and it is being done anonymously behind what I consider the cowardly use of a pseudonym.

You think our ideas are defective.

I think your ideas are defective.

I'm hiding behind a pseudonym.

You're hiding behind a pseudonym.

I own up to both. Do you?

Have I accused anyone of necromancy?

You go beyond ideas. My name is known to this website and is found in the archives somewhere (and I am sure you can help find where). It is also to be found on my book review expressing my beliefs concerning Dr. Boyd's book for those that care to look it up: Amazon, Seeing is Believing.

I think I own up to something more than you, I will stand behind my beliefs with my name. I think that you will (or have) go out of your way to attempt to "expose" my name and still attempt to hide your courage behind a pseudonym - these kind of actions are tough for one to respect.

Necromancy is not an issue of character, it is interacting with the dead. I am sure that there are necromancers that could be good citizens, good workers, and not lie or steal. I would just consider them to be wrong.

Spen Lake

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/25/2004 11:06 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Lacking the courage to even sign your own name

Sure thing, "spenlake".

Kids, take this LSD, then you'll REALLY appreciate being drug free.

LOL

This sounds like the DARE program in our schools! Cool

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/25/2004 12:44 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
How could Adam and Eve have an awareness of how good they had it without something to compare with?

And you can never experience how good life is until you're dead.

bada boom

Let's sin that we can "have an awareness" of grace!

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 10/25/2004 5:57 PM (GMT -6)

Contrast, hmm… it sounds like the adultery excuse, the cry for appreciation. Do you hear me now? Evil Tongue

I got it

all you have to do is love more today then you did yesterday and boom, you will have a positive contrast to compare with.

So Spenlake and Moderators Second Cousin I want to see a handshake today and a hug tomorrow.
Approve

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 10/25/2004 6:20 PM (GMT -6)

SpenLake: "I love ya man!"
Moderators Second Cousin: "You're not getting my egg roll!"

quest for truth
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479

Posted 10/26/2004 12:50 AM (GMT -6)

Hey folks, since we have had the opportunity to see hateful exchanges presented right before us on this thread

I think now we can more fully appreciate loving interactions. Kisses

Moderators Second Cousin and Spenlake, do you think the two of you could exchange email with one another off this site (take it outside) so we could be relieved of this dog fight?

Or better yet do the bear hug that Sparknheart is suggesting. Come on guys -- you can do it. Clown

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/26/2004 3:01 AM (GMT -6)

Jeff- (or anyone else who would like to comment, of course)

I hope you are still following the discussion because we had a good one going. I left off asking about Adam and Eve, and my question was did they really know how good they had it? The first few chapters of Genesis is silent about any appreciation or praise given to God by Adam or Eve. What did they have to compare to? Did this contribute somewhat to them being lead astray by Satan? I have thought myself, "how could they have given up what they had so easy?" Did they have a true realization of what they really had?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 3:14 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock

Jeff- (or anyone else who would like to comment, of course)

I hope you are still following the discussion because we had a good one going. I left off asking about Adam and Eve, and my question was did they really know how good they had it? The first few chapters of Genesis is silent about any appreciation or praise given to God by Adam or Eve. What did they have to compare to? Did this contribute somewhat to them being lead astray by Satan? I have thought myself, "how could they have given up what they had so easy?" Did they have a true realization of what they really had?

Unless you die, how can you truly know how good life was?

Unless you lose your arms and legs, how can you truly appreciate how useful they were?

Unless you lose your kids, how can you be aware how wonderful they are?

Don't you see how inaccurate your assertion is?

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/26/2004 3:30 AM (GMT -6)

Moderator: Don't you see how dumb your assertion is?

Spen: Perhaps the assertion could be called illogical instead of "dumb"? (I haven't followed the post and have no comment on whether it is or not) Perhaps something else could be said that didn't infer that Lock is being dishoest or something. I would like to believe that Lock would be honest enough to admit that an assertion he is making is illogical, if he were able to see it. I would also like to believe this about you and your assertions. I would like to believe that you would be honest and not attempt to intentionally deceive someone with an idea you knew to be false.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 3:32 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake

Moderator: Don't you see how dumb your assertion is?

Spen: Perhaps the assertion could be called illogical instead of "dumb"? (I haven't followed the post and have no comment on whether it is or not) Perhaps something else could be said that didn't infer that Lock is being dishoest or something. I would like to believe that Lock would be honest enough to admit that an assertion he is making is illogical, if he were able to see it. I would also like to believe this about you and your assertions. I would like to believe that you would be honest and not attempt to intentionally deceive someone with an idea you knew to be false.

I was trying to find a nice way to say "dumb". But dumb is dumb.

To say the negative of something HAS to be experienced in order to appreciate the positive of something is..... well, dumb.

And no, lock has never been honest enough to admit an assertion he has made is illogical. Neither have you.

When it was demonstrated that David killed Goliath 1365 years AFTER the flood, you never owned up to the dumb idea that the flood and the end of the Nephilim were "somehow" linked.

When it was demonstrated that Jesus and God NEVER considered Jonah a false prophet and the reason for God's changing of the prophecy against Nineveh was echoed in Ezekial, you never owned up to your dumb idea that Jonah was a false prophet.

When lock pulls out a reading of a Hebrew word that's different than the dozens of other biblical translations compiled by hundreds of other (real) Hebrew experts, does he own up to his dumbness?

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/26/2004 3:36 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

I was trying to find a nice way to say "dumb". But dumb is dumb.

To say the negative of something HAS to be experienced in order to appreciate the positive of something is..... well, dumb.

Spen: The key point was not the "dumb" but an inferred accusation of dishonesty when you seem to assert that he must see that his assertion is " " and yet will not acknowledge it as so.

Spen Lake

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/26/2004 3:44 AM (GMT -6)

Mod:When it was demonstrated that David killed Goliath 1365 years AFTER the flood, you never owned up to the dumb idea that the flood and the end of the Nephilim were "somehow" linked.

When it was demonstrated that Jesus and God NEVER considered Jonah a false prophet and the reason for God's changing of the prophecy against Nineveh was echoed in Ezekial, you never owned up to your dumb idea that Jonah was a false prophet.

Spen: You seem to be accusing me of dishonesty where there is possibly just the fact that I am confused by your arguments and that I honestly do not see the implications that you consider "obvious" and "logical." If I am simply feeble minded and you accuse me of a lapse of personal integrity, you do Christianity a dis-service and become a false accuser. I may be sinful on many counts, but I am not willingly attempting to promote something that I consider a false idea simply for the sake of "winning" or my satifying my ego. I would actually love to reopen these matters for your feedback, which I value, as hostile feedack is often more useful.

Spen Lake

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/26/2004 3:50 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

spenlake, why, when you're busy writing "open letters" to pastors of other churchs, trying to "correct" their "defective" ideas, do you throw a hissy fit when someone else tries to correct your defective ideas?

Spen: You are mistaken that I don't value the "correction," because I do. I am flattered that there are those who would even take the time to interact with me. What I find disappointing is not this attempt at correction, it is the accusations regarding the integrity of those you are trying to correct. You imply that I am intentionally refusing to acknowledge as false what I know to be false. This is not true to the best of my knowledge. I consider the accusation to be unfounded. This is not something that is limited to your exchanges with me, this is also manifested in your exchanges with Lock and others.

Spen Lake

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 10/26/2004 3:51 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Or better yet do the bear hug that Sparknheart is suggesting. Come on guys -- you can do it.

Please no bare hugs here, this is a family show.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 4:00 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Spen: You are mistaken that I don't value the "correction," because I do. I am flattered that there are those who would even take the time to interact with me. What I find disappointing is not this attempt at correction, it is the accusations regarding the integrity of those you are trying to correct. You imply that I am intentionally refusing to acknowledge as false what I know to be false. This is not true to the best of my knowledge. I consider the accusation to be unfounded. This is not something that is limited to your exchanges with me, this is also manifested in your exchanges with Lock and others.

For the record, I don't regard you as dishonest....

just a titch crazy.

I don't mind people having some wacky theories (I do myself) but to try and spread them takes it from the pet theory phase to the crazy crank with the thousand yard stare phase writing 'open letters' to other people, trying to correct their waywardness.

When I met my wife, she had to extracted from the grips of such a crazy, so I've been there, done that. He also, wrote such a letter.

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/26/2004 4:04 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin
[brFor the record, I don't regard you as dishonest....

just a titch crazy.

I don't mind people having some wacky theories (I do myself) but to try and spread them takes it from the pet theory phase to the crazy crank with the thousand yard stare phase writing 'open letters' to other people, trying to correct their waywardness.

When I met my wife, she had to extracted from the grips of such a crazy, so I've there, done that.

Thank you

I don't claim to be normal and, for that matter, I've never met a "normal" person.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 4:24 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I don't claim to be normal and, for that matter, I've never met a "normal" person.

I'd tell you a missionary, oddball story but John Earp didn't appreciate it too much and so it appears to be a loser.

Dead

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/26/2004 7:49 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by lock

Jeff- (or anyone else who would like to comment, of course)

I hope you are still following the discussion because we had a good one going. I left off asking about Adam and Eve, and my question was did they really know how good they had it? The first few chapters of Genesis is silent about any appreciation or praise given to God by Adam or Eve. What did they have to compare to? Did this contribute somewhat to them being lead astray by Satan? I have thought myself, "how could they have given up what they had so easy?" Did they have a true realization of what they really had?

Unless you die, how can you truly know how good life was?

Unless you lose your arms and legs, how can you truly appreciate how useful they were?

Unless you lose your kids, how can you be aware how wonderful they are?

Don't you see how inaccurate your assertion is?

You are applying this concept to only our life now and that is not what I am saying. The experience God gives us during this life relates in contrast to the life we have in Christ during the eons to come. Paul speaks of this when he states (Romans 8:18)...

quote:
18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 8:01 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You are applying this concept to only our life now and that is not what I am saying. The experience God gives us during this life relates in contrast to the life we have in Christ during the eons to come.

You were applying it to Adam and Eve, on earth, regarding good and evil.

How could Adam appreciate sex with Eve unless he had sex with other women?

How could Adam and Eve appreciate life until they were dead?

How could Adam and Eve be aware how wonderful and useful their arms and legs were until they lost them?

And on and on and on...

Don't move the goal posts after I've scored on you. Eyebrow

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