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lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/26/2004 8:09 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You are applying this concept to only our life now and that is not what I am saying. The experience God gives us during this life relates in contrast to the life we have in Christ during the eons to come.

You were applying it to Adam and Eve, on earth, regarding good and evil.

How could Adam appreciate sex with Eve unless he had sex with other women?

How could Adam and Eve appreciate life until they were dead?

How could Adam and Eve be aware how wonderful and useful their arms and legs were until they lost them?

And on and on and on...

Don't move the goal posts after I've scored on you.

You are still not getting it! and you have yet to even answer the question. Please explain how one can have a true concept of good without the backdrop of evil to compare with. Explain to me how you know something is good.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
You are still not getting it! and you have yet to even answer the question. Please explain how one can have a true concept of good without the backdrop of evil to compare with. Explain to me how you know something is good.

When I was little I knew mom and dad were good, even though I had never had bad parents.

When I have sex with my wife, I know it's awesome, even though I've never had sex with anyone else.

I know it would never be better with anyone else.

It would be HORRIBLE with anyone else.

I enjoy my arms and legs, even though I've never been limbless.

I enjoy life even though I've never been dead.

DUH, McFly!

How do you know the Cross is wonderful? Without the contrast of the alternative, where Jesus passes on the Cross and atonement is not made, HOW DO YOU KNOW THE CROSS WAS A WONDERFUL THING?

"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 10/26/2004 8:19 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I don't claim to be normal and, for that matter, I've never met a "normal" person.

I'd tell you a missionary, oddball story but John Earp didn't appreciate it too much and so it appears to be a loser.

Mod,

I believe that I read a note that you sent. It made me glad. I may disagree but it blessed me to see the effort.

Spen Lake

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Mod,

I believe that I read a note that you sent. It made me glad. I may disagree but it blessed me to see the effort.

Hey, can we talk tough with each other and humorously tease each other and still be friends? As far as I'm concerned we can.

It's just that EVERY year the Halloween issue came up with my wife and I got so tired of it....

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/26/2004 8:29 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
How do you know the Cross is wonderful? Without the contrast of the alternative, where Jesus passes on the Cross and atonement is not made, HOW DO YOU KNOW THE CROSS WAS A WONDERFUL THING?

I know the cross is the best ever in contrast to my own righteousness which will never meet God's standard of glory. The grace I recieve from God through the work of the cross is in stark contrast to the sin and unrighteousness I am capable of.

How do you truly know what you have is the best you could have? How do you know your arms and legs could not be better? How do you know your life could not be better? You haven't proven anything. The grass is always greener on the other side.

Plus you are still only seeing the small picture. I am talking about contrast with the life to come.

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 8:38 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
How do you truly know what you have is the best you could have? How do you know your arms and legs could not be better? How do you know your life could not be better? You haven't proven anything. The grass is always greener on the other side.

"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" is an American proverb about discontent. The wise answer has always been "no, the grass only appears greener". Be content with what you have.

Hebrews 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 10/26/2004 9:26 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin
"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" is an American proverb about discontent. The wise answer has always been "no, the grass only appears greener". Be content with what you have.

Hebrews 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.

It’s the American way, how much is enough? Just a little bit more.

We can never get enough out of this horizontal life, at least not until we figure out “what’s up”. King

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/26/2004 10:45 AM (GMT -6)

Don't dodge the issue by using the contentment view.
I feel uncomfortable speaking about your sex life so I will put myself into the example. If my wife is the only person I ever have sex with during my life, how do I know it is truly good? It may be good from my perspective, but it may not be good from another person's perspective or even my wife's for that matter Cool

.

I may think that I am a pretty good person, according to my perspective, but on my own I will never meet God's standard, according to His perspective, which is the only one that counts!

Spark is right. We will not know what truly is good until we figure out "what's up". While hampered by the flesh, our knowledge and experience with God will be limited, not until we are in our resurrected bodies will be have the full and complete knowledge to know "what's up".

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 11:17 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock

Don't dodge the issue by using the contentment view.
I feel uncomfortable speaking about your sex life so I will put myself into the example. If my wife is the only person I ever have sex with during my life, how do I know it is truly good? It may be good from my perspective, but it may not be good from another person's perspective or even my wife's for that matter .

Here's where you're getting lost:

If I work all day and drink NOTHING, the ~~beer~~ beverage I have at the end of the day tastes GREAT.

I don't need to drink ACID all day in order to enjoy the beverage at the end of the day.

You don't NEED the experience of EVIL to enjoy GOOD.

Unless you want to argue that bachelorhood prior to marriage is evil...

Nurse

"Now do you appreciate your head?"
Knife

"Yeah, until now, I didn't."

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 11:25 AM (GMT -6)

When God said, "Behold my Son in whom I am well pleased", how could God appreciate His Son's obedience without His Son's disobedience as contrast?

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 10/26/2004 11:35 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock
Spark is right. We will not know what truly is good until we figure out "what's up". While hampered by the flesh, our knowledge and experience with God will be limited, not until we are in our resurrected bodies will be have the full and complete knowledge to know "what's up".

If you are not content in this world, what leads you to believe you will not be bored in the eternal realm to come?

Is “epistemic distance” subject to the comparison of what you don’t know, or is it conditioned on increments of bliss you acquire throughout the eternal progression? Eyebrow

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 11:39 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
If you are not content in this world, what leads you to believe you will not be bored in the eternal realm to come?

It reminds me of Vietnam era speak: "in order to save the village, we had to destroy it".

"In order to appreciate God's goodness, we have to experience God's evilness."

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 10/26/2004 11:57 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin
It reminds me of Vietnam era speak: "in order to save the village, we had to destroy it".

"In order to appreciate God's goodness, we have to experience God's evilness."

War, blame it on Eve for being bored and discontent with paradise. Wink

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart

quote:
Originally posted by Moderators Second Cousin
It reminds me of Vietnam era speak: "in order to save the village, we had to destroy it".

"In order to appreciate God's goodness, we have to experience God's evilness."

War, blame it on Eve for being bored and discontent with paradise.

Bartender! A round of bottled acid, on me!

Cool

Won't that make the beer taste GOOD?

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 12:04 PM (GMT -6)

Maybe worship should lead off with, say, bagpipe hymns.

Won't that make the subsequent music so much more appreciated?

Tongue

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 12:06 PM (GMT -6)

Try these glasses on and see how they are.

Shock

Wait, poke out my eyes first! I need a baseline, a metric...

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 12:08 PM (GMT -6)

How do you tune a bagpipe?
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They'll never know.

How do you improve the pitch on a banjo?
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Throw it UP and INTO the trash bin.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 12:11 PM (GMT -6)

What do you call a bass player without a wife?
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Homeless.

What does a Jazz player do if he wins the lottery?
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Keep playing gigs until the money runs out.

Moderators Second Cousin
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2004
Total Posts : 85

Posted 10/26/2004 12:13 PM (GMT -6)

How do you slow down a lead guitarist?
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Put sheet music in front of him.

How do you know a drummer is knocking at your door?
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The knocking speeds up.

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 10/27/2004 1:43 AM (GMT -6)

For the Doc...

How do you know when the drummers platform is level?

The drool runs evenly out of both sides of his mouth.

peace, don

"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
Terry Scott Taylor

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/27/2004 3:18 AM (GMT -6)

Second and Spark-

Why is evil in the world?

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 10/27/2004 3:57 AM (GMT -6)

Lock,

Evil is in the world because God created beings with Free Will and these beings chose to rebel against God.

Ross

"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid

rossfadeinout
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428

Posted 10/27/2004 4:00 AM (GMT -6)

Lock,

Are you saying that God cannot know what is good unless he experiences evil?

Is evil co-eternal with God?

Ross

"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid

lock
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701

Posted 10/27/2004 7:42 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Evil is in the world because God created beings with Free Will and these beings chose to rebel against God.

Did God know beforehand that His creatures would make this mistake? Even if you hold to the fact that God created man with a free will, and that this free will openned the door to man sinning, because he chose to rebel, is not God still responsible for man sinning? God created man with the "possiblity" of rebelling. God could have created man as robots and perfect with not possibility to sin and evil would have never entered the world, but he didn't.

quote:
Are you saying that God cannot know what is good unless he experiences evil?

I am speaking only of man.

quote:
Is evil co-eternal with God?

No, I believe that evil has a purpose and is temporary in God's creation. When it has met its purpose, evil, sin, death will all be done away with.
The belief in eternal torment makes evil eternal. If people will be around eternally, along with Satan and his angels, suffering for their lifetime of sins, then evil and the product of sin will be around for eternity. How could God be All in All with this situation? In the end how can it not be that Satan is more victorious then God? A majority of mankind will spend eternity experiencing the most evil imagined! Satan will have succeeded in drawing more people away from God then God could draw to Himself!

His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 10/27/2004 9:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by lock

Second and Spark-

Why is evil in the world?

Talk about incongruities, such irony we find in the guilty ones placing God on trial.

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