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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 10/6/2004 2:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Satan does not have authority unless God grants it to him. God has authority over all the heavens and the earth. God allows freewill but will intervene (and has throughout history) if creation is destroying itself. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 10/6/2004 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | | LOCKquote:
Does this not still fall into the "kingdom divided against itself" category? God gives the authority to Satan to struggle against God's own purposes intended for mankind?
I don't think this falls in the "kingdom divided against itself" -- let me explain why. God's purpose for mankind was relationship. God desires a relationship with each person but does not force one. God created the natural world perfectly. God created us with the ability to choose. Satan is prowling this world looking for whom he may devour. Satan's struggle is with our freewill choices not with the created world.
When nature's tragedy happens (say a hurricane)some want to blame it on Satan while others want to blame it on God not caring, but the truth is that God did not cause the hurricane but rather created the system in which the hurricane is developed. God's created system is what prevents chaos from happening in nature.
Satan may be the ruler of this age but he does not have authority over people and this is what he is interested in obtaining. This is his struggle. The battle is not with the physical realm but with the spirit (with the mind) Satan does whatever possible to interfere with the mind. The bible tells us to "Take your thoughts captive to Christ" The battle is with the truth verses the lie.
Lock, did I answer your question? | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 10/6/2004 12:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Sorry, Lock, I misunderstood. Hopefully Greg Boyd or someone smarter can answer that question for you.
God bless. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/6/2004 5:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Lock,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by quest for truth
Satan does not have authority unless God grants it to him. God has authority over all the heavens and the earth. God allows freewill but will intervene (and has throughout history) if creation is destroying itself.
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Does this not still fall into the "kingdom divided against itself" category? God gives the authority to Satan to struggle against God's own purposes intended for mankind?
But if the authority Satan currently has is none other than the authority God gave Satan in a pre-Fallen state, the argument changes. For then, the authority was given for good but it was not used for good, and God has simply not revoked it yet - much like authority given to parents for good is not always used for good. But your view seems to be that God gave Satan authority for evil from the get-go. BIG DIFFERENCE!
In the Old Testament God is mainly dealing with Israel. The only time other nations are mentioned are due to their involement with Israel in some manner or another.
When the authority of other nations is in view, when was Satan given this authority? If man had never sinned and the languages never confused, the kigdoms would have never entered the picture. There were no nations before the tower of babel and the confusion of languages. It is after this event that Abraham comes into the picture and God deals mainly with Israel, which He intended to be a nation of priests bringing His precepts to the other nations (gentiles). Why would God have given authority to Satan over the nations before the "fall" if the "fall" was only a possibility at that time?
As for my view of Satan, 1 John 3:8 says that Satan was sinning from the beginning. The Greek does does not have the article in front of beginning, so this does not say "the beginning" as in Gen 1:1, but "a beginning" or his beginning. John 8:44 tells us he was a man-killer from the start and the "father" of lies. Many believe that Ez. 28 and Isa. 14 speak of "Satan's Fall" but I have read convincing arguements as to why these cannot refer to Satan.
www.concordant.org/expohtml/theproblemofevil/evil004.html
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 10/7/2004 1:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
quote:
When the authority of other nations is in view, when was Satan given this authority? If man had never sinned and the languages never confused, the kigdoms would have never entered the picture. There were no nations before the tower of babel and the confusion of languages. It is after this event that Abraham comes into the picture and God deals mainly with Israel, which He intended to be a nation of priests bringing His precepts to the other nations (gentiles). Why would God have given authority to Satan over the nations before the "fall" if the "fall" was only a possibility at that time?
If God gave Satan a kind of authority based on his hierarchical place in the scheme of things (like Michael being called the ARCHangel), that suthority may have been a general one which had a view toward the human race and one which required a certain degree of power.
quote:
As for my view of Satan, 1 John 3:8 says that Satan was sinning from the beginning. The Greek does does not have the article in front of beginning, so this does not say "the beginning" as in Gen 1:1, but "a beginning" or his beginning. John 8:44 tells us he was a man-killer from the start and the "father" of lies. Many believe that Ez. 28 and Isa. 14 speak of "Satan's Fall" but I have read convincing arguements as to why these cannot refer to Satan.
But if Satan was created and "fell" in the creation week, like Adam, the verse in John makes sense, anyway. Don't have time to check your link on Ezekiel but will try to do so by this weekend.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/7/2004 3:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But if Satan was created and "fell" in the creation week, like Adam, the verse in John makes sense, anyway. Don't have time to check your link on Ezekiel but will try to do so by this weekend.
But, we are not told Satan was created in the same 6 day creation as Adam was. I have read works that suggest angels (and Satan) were created with the first creation (Gen. 1:1) and that when sin entered this creation, the result was the katabole of the kosmos and the earth became without form and void (Gen. 1:2).
Just like I believe God has a purpose for man sinning, I also believe God has a purpose for evil in the world, headed up by Satan. God has given Satan authority to meet His purposes for mankind and all of His creation.
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 10/7/2004 12:42 PM (GMT -6) | | I simply do not buy the idea that because Satan is the "god of this world," that he controls everything and that all the structures of this world are under his authority. When the Bible makes such a statement I believe it is general statement of Satan's power, not a specific one about every piece of property on planet earth. To believe such an idea would be elevate Satan beyond his power.
The structures and governments of the world are controled by men with choice. And, regardless of influence, we still have a choice about how we use them.
Lock, the closet open theist...strikes again. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/8/2004 3:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by feelinahole
I simply do not buy the idea that because Satan is the "god of this world," that he controls everything and that all the structures of this world are under his authority. When the Bible makes such a statement I believe it is general statement of Satan's power, not a specific one about every piece of property on planet earth. To believe such an idea would be elevate Satan beyond his power.
The structures and governments of the world are controled by men with choice. And, regardless of influence, we still have a choice about how we use them.
Lock, the closet open theist...strikes again.
Feelin'-
Where to you draw the line for Satan's authority? Satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus. If He didn't have authority over all the kingdoms of the world his offer would have been worthless. Jesus will take authority over the kingdoms of the world, but in God's time. The temptation was to take it this authority earlier through Satan. Obviously, Satan cannot be at all places on the earth at all times, but the bible shows evidence that there are "princes" in place over each nation, Michael being the "prince" over Israel. According to Doc's message, it seems he would agree that Satan has authority over the nations, and the eclesia is a "called-out" group appointed to God's kingdom (He most likely doesn't agree with the appointed part  , but called-out nonetheless).
One more question, do we have control over which country we are born into? Our "choices" when it comes to government is already determined somewhat depending on which country and at which time period we are born into.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/8/2004 5:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
Satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus. If He didn't have authority over all the kingdoms of the world his offer would have been worthless.
Satan is the father of lies, all that he offers is worthless. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/8/2004 8:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus. If He didn't have authority over all the kingdoms of the world his offer would have been worthless.
Satan is the father of lies, all that he offers is worthless.
I agree with your statement because Satan only had what was given him by God, just as in the case of Pilate. But, how would this have been a genuine temptation for Jesus if the actually authority of the kingdoms was not the reward for worshiping Satan?
I don't know lock, does satan ever tempt you with the truth of God? If your answer is yes, then maybe your right on with your "kingdom divided against itself" statement? All I can say, satan only tempts me with lies.
You can believe the words of Satan:
"All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me."
I perfer the words of Jesus:
Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! for it is written,
'Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.' "
"Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven."
The devil may have based his offer on his temporary control and free rein over the earth because of humanity’s sinfulness. Jesus’ temptation was to take the world as a political ruler right then, without carrying out his plan to save the world from sin. Satan was trying to distort Jesus’ perspective by making him focus on worldly power and not on God’s plans. The devil offered the whole world to Jesus if Jesus would only bow down and worship him.
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/8/2004 10:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I don't know lock, does satan ever tempt you with the truth of God? If your answer is yes, then maybe your right on with your "kingdom divided against itself" statement? All I can say, satan only tempts me with lies.
Satan tempted Jesus with God's truth...
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 10/8/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
I don't know lock, does satan ever tempt you with the truth of God? If your answer is yes, then maybe your right on with your "kingdom divided against itself" statement? All I can say, satan only tempts me with lies.
Satan tempted Jesus with God's truth...
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Where does it say go jump off a cliff? Satan tried to twist the truth, read it in full context:
Psalm 91:1-16 (NRSV)
You who live in the shelter of the Most High,
who abide in the shadow of the Almighty,
will say to the Lord, "My refuge and my fortress;
my God, in whom I trust."
For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler
and from the deadly pestilence;
he will cover you with his pinions,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.
You will not fear the terror of the night,
or the arrow that flies by day,
[6] or the pestilence that stalks in darkness,
or the destruction that wastes at noonday.
[7] A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
[8.] You will only look with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.
[9] Because you have made the Lord your refuge,
the Most High your dwelling place,
[10] no evil shall befall you,
no scourge come near your tent.
[11] For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways.
[12] On their hands they will bear you up,
so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.
[13] You will tread on the lion and the adder,
the young lion and the serpent you will trample under foot.
[14] Those who love me, I will deliver;
I will protect those who know my name.
[15] When they call to me, I will answer them;
I will be with them in trouble,
I will rescue them and honor them.
[16] With long life I will satisfy them,
and show them my salvation.
The devil used Scripture to try to convince Jesus to sin! He tried to present it as attractive and convincing reasons so Jesus would do wrong. Only if you really understand what the whole Bible says will you be able to recognize errors of interpretation when people take verses out of context and twist them to say what they want them to say.
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 10/8/2004 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Satan offered the kingdoms of the world to Jesus. If He didn't have authority over all the kingdoms of the world his offer would have been worthless.
Satan is the father of lies, all that he offers is worthless.
I agree with your statement because Satan only had what was given him by God, just as in the case of Pilate. But, how would this have been a genuine temptation for Jesus if the actually authority of the kingdoms was not the reward for worshiping Satan?
I do believe satan's offer to Christ was real. Satan had obtained the right to rule the earth system. This was completely dissolved by the fact of Jesus offering himself on the cross. I find this fact largely unknown and untaught in the modern church. I met arguments when I bring this up. After the cross, in Matt 28:18 "and Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth." Collosians says more on the subject. We as the body of Christ do have weapons that are far superior to anything the devil has. It is a grievous thing to see the modern church not walking in more victory. Our lack of knowledge, our lack of fervency, our lack of Love for God is tragic. I do believe some are awakening. I do believe in other countries there is the reinging of the true church in heaven and on earth. It seems they have had more desperate need and better fortitude on grasping for the hem of Jesus. These Christians seem to know better the situation with satan and Jesus. What I cannot explain is how it seems satan still wins many battles in the U.S. I agree with the men of God saying that the church here will still awaken and arise. I pray we will.
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 10/8/2004 5:04 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
My question was more focused on the governments or kingdoms of this world. Satan has been given the authority over the kingdoms of the world and this is what he offered to Jesus. Doc stated (which comes directly from the bible) that God uses the government to "keep order" in the world. A tool that Satan uses to draw people away from God, God still uses to keep the world from falling into chaos. This does appear to be God and Satan "warring" against each other, but Satan being used by God to meet His divine purposes.
I have a hard time grasping the idea that satan has been given the authority over the kingdoms of the world. He has power, but not authority. I guess I see authority as leadership that is earned, and worthy of following. His power is evil, so it is difficult for me to imagine, that it is being "allowed" or worse, that it has been granted, or given to him to use. I do believe that God can bring good out of tragedy, out of the things that the enemy intends for evil as well - but I know that He doesn't always bring good out of those things. I do believe there is a battleground, and that we are part of that battle; that our prayer, and our choices, make a difference in this life, and in the next.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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lock
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 10/11/2004 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by lock
Just like I believe God has a purpose for man sinning, I also believe God has a purpose for evil in the world, headed up by Satan. God has given Satan authority to meet His purposes for mankind and all of His creation.
Back to the old question - from the Carlie thread - was God complicit in evil. What you're saying here sounds like that, but I do not believe that God can have any part in evil - even to use it for his purposes. Evil is totally antithetical to God and His purposes, but He can redeem, restore, heal, transform...even thwart the purposes of evil.
Jo-Anne
Hello Jo-Anne,
Then how do you deal with the scripture that speaks of God bringing about evil?
1 Sam. 16:14 "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. "
Amos 9:4 "And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good."
Micah 1:12 "For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem."
Micah 2:3 "Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time [is] evil."
Jer. 51:64 "And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far [are] the words of Jeremiah. "
Eze 5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for [their] destruction, [and] which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:
Eze 5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken [it].
Eze. 14:22 "Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, [both] sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, [even] concerning all that I have brought upon it."
These are only a handful of the many passages that speak of God bringing about evil. Again, how do you interpret these if God "cannot have any part in evil-even to use it for His purposes"?
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