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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > I Need Some Answers About This Please. | Forum Quick Jump
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Laplace
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138
| Posted 11/12/2004 9:16 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tigress,
I'm not so sure that they are as different as you say they are. Some people because of genetic defects are born with mental illnesses just as some are born unattractive.
However, in both circumstances, we have the power to influence what we're born with. For appearance, we can exercise regularly, eat right, maintain good hygiene, and dress nicely. We can also do the opposite and become even more unattractive.
Emotionally, people can take medication to help with their emotions. They can also LEARN social skills to counterbalance what they may feel like they want to do. Or, they can decide that they are the most important person in the world and ignore the well-being of others.
It's really the person's choice. And unfortunately, we can't force it upon them. The best we can do is point out to them that their behaviors affect others negatively. If they choose to heed them, great. If not, then it must be clear that certain behaviors are not allowed. And if there is a change in behavior, the "tolerance" of these people may turn into pleasure.
"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 11/12/2004 9:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
Tigress,
I'm not so sure that they are as different as you say they are. Some people because of genetic defects are born with mental illnesses just as some are born unattractive.
However, in both circumstances, we have the power to influence what we're born with. For appearance, we can exercise regularly, eat right, maintain good hygiene, and dress nicely. We can also do the opposite and become even more unattractive.
Emotionally, people can take medication to help with their emotions. They can also LEARN social skills to counterbalance what they may feel like they want to do. Or, they can decide that they are the most important person in the world and ignore the well-being of others.
It's really the person's choice. And unfortunately, we can't force it upon them. The best we can do is point out to them that their behaviors affect others negatively. If they choose to heed them, great. If not, then it must be clear that certain behaviors are not allowed. And if there is a change in behavior, the "tolerance" of these people may turn into pleasure.
I was referring to people who do these things but are still judged by others based on appearance. A person can do all these things and still not be considered attractive by anyone. And we've all met these people. I'm considered one of them, myself. People should never just dismiss a person based upon their appearance, ever. They should always spend time with them to see if mutual attraction develops. But, in the case of emotionally unhealthy people, I tend to think that because they are so stressful to put up with, they should be consigned to the professionals who are the only ones best equipped to handle them. You wouldn't want a cashier to perform brain surgery on someone. So why would you want laypeople doing a pastor's or a therapist's job, too?
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 11/12/2004 11:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Tigress, if a small group of Christians isn't the place for a needy person to turn for help, what is the group for?
a mutual admiration society?
Yo, Einstein dude. Small groups have various purposes. Not every small group is equipped to handle heavy needs. IF the men in Tigress' small group are not prepared or mature enough to reach out to the "needy" men, then I believe that Tigress would be doing the loving thing to stir the "needy" men somewhere else.
The place of "needy" people is support groups that deal with specific issues or individual counseling.
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barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 11/12/2004 11:40 AM (GMT -6) | | I wanna be a counselor. I don't wanna be a church pastor cause they have to counsel whomever asks...usually. I meet some of the meanest and craziest people in church. I've had them in home groups many times. It is a diffucult thing and no easy answers. Being intolerant toward romantic overtures is so necessary. If it's a man as in these cases, a man has to step in and be corrective. And it parallels a bit to child raising...gotta love the kid, correct them , break their will to do wrong, and not break their spirit. A tall order. usually there is also always at least one or more who will dominate the talk-time. Sometimes the leader has to be forceful enough to jsut take the floor back and tell Mr. Talkative that we need to hear from some others in the group.
I love what Francis Frangipane heard God say as Francis could see so many problem people in his church...God said rather than what FF thought He'd say(Go correct them!) God said Go Die for Them. OOOhh!
I have seen some of these really disturbed types nearly change their spots when they were truly sacrificed for.
Good authors, imho, on groups are Karen Hurston, John Eldredge, and Ted Haggard. these folks have overseen tons of small groups. They have experience galore!
Blessin's
Barry | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 11/12/2004 11:58 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 11/14/2004 1:32 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
Well, I'm gonna be off the internet for the weekend so I won't be able to continue this discussion until Monday at the earliest. (I hope there aren't like 50 posts here when I return.  That would be so overwhelming to try to catch up on. Yeesh! ) Have a good weekend, Everyone!
Narry a post, and it's Sunday already! 
I would add Larry Crabb's books to Barry's recommendations. Shattered Dreams talks about community in the first chapter, as discovering each individual. It also talks about our responsibility to love each individual so they will experience transformation. We fall short...way short, at times. Tigress, I know you're trying here. I know exactly the "men" that you're talking about. I've been "bear-hugged" and kissed by men who were not my husband. I know that sounds terrible, but there are some men who really don't have healthy boundaries, and I don't always see it coming (the first time). There is no other loving way to deal with this, but to be honest - lovingly, but firmly. If someone doesn't do that with these men, they'll hear about it second hand, and be hurt a lot more. We would rather (bless our hearts) talk about people, than talk to them, and that is wrong.
I agree with LaPlace...have a leader (a man) speak to them. It sounds like there are definite things that need to be addressed, but then...was the kiss a one time thing? Was it a kiss on the cheek? Is he European? I'm not saying that you need to tolerate unwelcome behavior, or that you should...what I'm saying is that it really helps to understand context, so that things are dealt with appropriately. For instance...one Sunday I had a wonderful man (godly, mission minded, about 10 years older than me...not that much older) lean over and kiss me on the cheek, as I shook his hand. It took me by surprise. It has never happened again. I didn't have to talk to him (or his wife). He lived in Eurasia, and it is a way of greeting (greet each other with a kiss). It was not sexual. The man has a wonderful, humble heart, and healthy boundaries. Now...if he kissed me everytime he came back from a trip...well, I'd need to reconsider! 
Here's a different example...in a different church/different city...a man we were visiting decided to give me a long bear hug. I thought he wanted to just hug me (normally) but that wasn't it, and my husband watched, and thought nothing of it! I would not let that happen again. This man wasn't hugging me as a friend, it was a momentary thrill for him (I believe). It's amazing how you can tell the difference. I've had brothers (in Christ) hug me, and I knew that they respected me ... totally. It was purely affection. I can tell the difference. Maybe it's that "sixth sense" that women have!
Tigress...what's hard is not dealing with it. You may even find, that if you, or someone else talks to these men, that it will help them become more a part of the group. They may even be friends down the road. None of us are perfect. That would be a boring world.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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the Wicker Man
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2004
Total Posts : 73
| Posted 11/14/2004 1:54 PM (GMT -6) | | interesting, jo-anne, i can call you jo-anne, can't i?
some women are "huggy" too. when some such huggy woman comes up to me, i offer her my hand for a handshake, i'll hug my mom and my wife and my daugthers only, thank you very much
tigress, just offer your hand to the "huggers", it'll be a friendly gesture that sends a subtle message as well
as for people manipulating conversation, just yawn a few times, look bored and say something totally off topic like "didn't hannibal's elephants get COLD in the alps?"
uromancer to the stars | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/14/2004 3:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
as for people manipulating conversation, just yawn a few times, look bored and say something totally off topic like "didn't hannibal's elephants get COLD in the alps?"
I heard Hannibal whispered warm stories into the elephant's ears, telling them of the great Italian food that awaited them. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 11/15/2004 5:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
I would add Larry Crabb's books to Barry's recommendations. Shattered Dreams talks about community in the first chapter, as discovering each individual. It also talks about our responsibility to love each individual so they will experience transformation. We fall short...way short, at times. Tigress, I know you're trying here. I know exactly the "men" that you're talking about. I've been "bear-hugged" and kissed by men who were not my husband. I know that sounds terrible, but there are some men who really don't have healthy boundaries, and I don't always see it coming (the first time). There is no other loving way to deal with this, but to be honest - lovingly, but firmly. If someone doesn't do that with these men, they'll hear about it second hand, and be hurt a lot more. We would rather (bless our hearts) talk about people, than talk to them, and that is wrong.
I agree with LaPlace...have a leader (a man) speak to them. It sounds like there are definite things that need to be addressed, but then...was the kiss a one time thing? Was it a kiss on the cheek? Is he European? I'm not saying that you need to tolerate unwelcome behavior, or that you should...what I'm saying is that it really helps to understand context, so that things are dealt with appropriately. For instance...one Sunday I had a wonderful man (godly, mission minded, about 10 years older than me...not that much older) lean over and kiss me on the cheek, as I shook his hand. It took me by surprise. It has never happened again. I didn't have to talk to him (or his wife). He lived in Eurasia, and it is a way of greeting (greet each other with a kiss). It was not sexual. The man has a wonderful, humble heart, and healthy boundaries. Now...if he kissed me everytime he came back from a trip...well, I'd need to reconsider!
Here's a different example...in a different church/different city...a man we were visiting decided to give me a long bear hug. I thought he wanted to just hug me (normally) but that wasn't it, and my husband watched, and thought nothing of it! I would not let that happen again. This man wasn't hugging me as a friend, it was a momentary thrill for him (I believe). It's amazing how you can tell the difference. I've had brothers (in Christ) hug me, and I knew that they respected me ... totally. It was purely affection. I can tell the difference. Maybe it's that "sixth sense" that women have!
Tigress...what's hard is not dealing with it. You may even find, that if you, or someone else talks to these men, that it will help them become more a part of the group. They may even be friends down the road. None of us are perfect. That would be a boring world.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Hey Moon River J,
No, the guy was not from Europe at all. He was just desperate, I think. You know, this all goes back to my complaint about not-so-good-looking people getting a raw deal in life. I mean if that guy had been good-looking he probably would have found a wife and had been relatively normal, and not bugged other women. But, because he wasn't handsome, he was stuck being single and having to deal with major sexual impulses. It's just not fair that those of us who aren't good-looking have to put up with being single when we don't want to and then are expected to just try to ignore those feelings. I mean, I can't really blame these guys for being so frustrated and desperate. Anyone who is married has absolutely no right to say anything about this because they have someone who they can express these feelings with, no matter how long they were single beforehand! I mean one of these guys says that if God would just give him a wife, it would solve the problem, and I have to say that for the most part I agree. I mean, then he could be more focused on other things because he's finally able to express his desires with someone - an avenue by which to release those desires.
Granted, I'm well aware of the fact that many people who aren't good-looking haven't found a spouse because they have low self-esteem and therefore emotional unhealthiness. So, it's not just about being physically unattractive. My whole argument has been that if a physically unattractive person is emotionally healthy he or she can still find a spouse if people would just take the time to get to know them better and let the physical attraction develop. But, a lot of people are emotionally unhealthy because they are physically unattractive so it's like a viscious circle. If they hadn't been treated so poorly by society because of their unattractive looks, they might have had better self-esteem and therefore had been more attractive to people. I really feel sorry for these guys because they were given a double burden and I know what they're going through. How can they ever obtain good self-esteem so they can attract someone and get married like the rest of society?
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 11/15/2004 6:08 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/15/2004 6:12 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/15/2004 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 11/15/2004 7:07 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Albert Einstein
There ya go. Maybe you need to look below the surface as you advocate others do....
BTW, my wife looked deep, deep, deep below the surface and Lord knows what she found but she married me despite all that.
Actually I do. I've been attracted to many different types of guys, not all who were physically attractive to most people either. I dated a guy that most women wouldn't give the time of day to, but he dumped me!!!!! I guess that (sadly) says a lot about me doesn't it? But, as I said, these three guys I initially wrote about were all emotionally screwed up, so they ruined their own potential right from the get-go. If they hadn't been so messed up, they'd have probably seemed more attractive to me and others.
By the way Einstein, that dancing Hello Kitty really irritates the h--l out of me!  
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Albert Einstein
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 83
| Posted 11/15/2004 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/15/2004 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laplace
Maybe the guys just need a gimmic to become popular. Maybe not.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=857&ncid=757&e=10&u=/nm/20041112/od_uk_nm/oukoe_life_calendar
LOL  | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/15/2004 7:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Albert Einstein
Tigress, see how readily Laplace and sparknheart volunteered for the study?
Ok, my hand is halfway in the air.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/15/2004 7:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
That is just plain sinful in my opinion - whether they had great bodies or not. What kind of example are these people setting for children?
I agree! It's a shame, laplace get dressed. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 11/16/2004 1:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
quote:
Originally posted by Albert Einstein
Why don't the unattractive women and the unattractive men get married?
Some attractive women have even helped the cause by taking unattractive men off the market.... it worked for the moderator.
Unfortunately, both are just as unattracted to each other as the good-looking people are to them. Why didn't God just make everyone really good-looking? It's all so unfair. I've seen so many good-looking people get married and so many unattractive people stuck being single. There's an obvious flaw in this arrangement. And yes, I'm a hypocrite. As much as I complain about how people should give unattractive people a chance, I'm really no better. I want a gorgeous guy just like every other girl does.....I'm so sorry for being such a pathetic hypocrite.
To coin a phrase, "Handsome is as handsome does." Tigress, what do you find appealing in a man? What would a gorgeous man "look like" to you? (I'm not talking about physical appearance here).
Jo-Anne
Tell ya what...I'll go first...my idea of a "gorgeous man" is first and foremost a man who is passionate about the Father, then secondly passionate about me. What he looks like is of a lot less importance than if he is gentle and kind, has a sense of humor, and loves others as Christ loves...those are the more important considerations, and if you find a man like that...you'll be attracted to him.
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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