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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/3/2004 10:20 AM (GMT -6) |   | http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/144/31.0.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3973197.stm
Damn it all to hell.
FORMER "evangelical" (for VARIOUS reasons),
PS: God told me (through Pat Robertson and Ben Kinsly on 700 Club) to tell YOU, Modes, dear boy, to stay here and avoid the peril of "over there" Remember, God is pro-war, anti-gay, and ambivalent on the economy. Just go to Vega$ (but don't forget to tithe, 'kay?  )
"Religion is the opiate of the masses."
Karl Marx, Urban Dictionary, under "Religion."
German economist & Communist political philosopher (1818 - 1883) | | Back to Top | | |
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 11/3/2004 4:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Modes,
I feel your concern bro. Really I do. But there are many in this countries leadership who supported going to war, including John Kerry. Yeah, yeah, I know that that point has been driven into the ground, but it is true.
I do not think that we should have went to war against Iraq. But I could not support a man who personally doesn't think abortion is right, but would not do anything to stop the murder of these babies because it is an article of his faith, and faith and policy should in his mind be seperated.
Honestly I don't like George Bush's outlook or personality. I think there is a touch of arrogance in many of the things he says and does. But I can never support a party that consistently stands against moral values that I hold as vital.
If Bush is a war criminal, isn't every representative who voted for the war one as well?
But you are right, a consistent pro-life ethic will include protection of all people. I'm attaching an article by my professor at Union University, Dr. David Gushee. He speaks to the issue of having a consistent ethic of life. www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/032/The%20Consistent%20Ethic%20of%20Life%20By%20David%20Gushee_032_3_.htm
Peace,
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 11/3/2004 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I know that you have some frustrations, but was Kerry the moral choice?
Honestly I don't think there was a good choice to make....But i'm one of those Christians who sees abortion as a voting issue. And i would think that a consistent "affirmation of life" ethic requires me to do whatever I can to stop the genocide of the unborn in our country.
I do agree, I think that the US went to war against the just war criterion. It was a wrong decision. Yet i don't see it to the extreme of the US going around bombing at will.
Amen, Rossfadeinout!
ModesofThought, I spent a lot of time, thought, and prayer before casting my vote. The LAST thing I wanted to be classified as was a conservative evangelical that automatically voted for Bush. In fact I struggled out loud on this web site and appreciated the responses and thoughts I received from the many posters who helped me think. After everything being considered, after contemplating on the issues -- ALL the innocent lives being taken by war and poverty and insufficient health care... I believe the Holy Spirit touched my heart in such a way that I decided the decision for me came down to "sanctity of life verses quality of life". There are far more unborn babies being killed in a single day than innocent lives being slaughtered in war. They both are EVIL and NOT OF GOD -- they both ROB, KILL, DESTROY. But in order for me to vote I needed to choose which was the lesser evil since Jesus would not be bombing Iraq nor aborting a baby. Which was the lesser evil?
But, that was my personal conviction. I know people had many reasons they voted the way they did and I am glad we each get to make our own decision. Thank God we have the freedom to vote! | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/4/2004 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | WWJD, I don’t think Jesus would be on the extreme left or right of either political side. Jesus shed tears for some and a whip for others.
We should all stay on guard as politics can easily become a form of idolatry. Government is intended to control those that are out of control. Christians are simply called to influence others and control ones self. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 11/4/2004 11:18 AM (GMT -6) | | lockquote:
Should Christians be this caught up in the affairs of the world and civil government?
I find it a privilege that we are free to vote. It’s unavoidable to live in the world without getting caught in the affairs that effect us. I don't know how we can avoid being caught up in the world around us.
Jesus told us to give to Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. Jesus did not tell us to avoid Caesar nor the Roman Government. Jesus did not emphasize this part of life because this was not the mission of God made Man coming to earth. Jesus came to bring LIFE, TRUTH, and the WAY to a lost world. We definitely, as Christians, should be more concerned with living up to being disciples of Christ and showing the way through our love.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 11/4/2004 6:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Lock,
I am sorry that I gave you the impression that I think it is the Christian duty to vote. I don’t think it is a duty but rather a right. We do not have to vote. We are FREE to vote.
I find it impossible to say that we are going to be in the world but not of it. I guess if you lived on a deserted island you could achieve this. Other than that, however, it is impossible for the actions of others to not effect us in such a way that often we need to respond. The government of the country in which we live pass laws which impact our lives. I do not know how anyone, whether Christian or not, can avoid being caught up in this to some extent.
However, I do not think we should become so preoccupied with the affairs of the world and civil government that it consumes us. Instead of bashing the country or the leaders wouldn’t it be moving to see those who oppose the current leadership of the United States to put their energy into loving as Jesus taught through action? Wouldn’t it be moving to see those same people become so involved in tending to needs that they’d have no time to bash the government. We need to be living and walking in love and not just talking about love while criticizing any who we disagree with. In order to stand united we need to support our leadership. Gosh, I know how hurtful it can be when church members criticize the leadership of a church. We are called to pray for those in leadership.
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/4/2004 6:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ModesofThought
What Would Jesus Bomb?
If you voted for Bush, please list for me all the sites you think would accurately answer the question.
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 11/4/2004 9:25 PM (GMT -6) | | ross,
Love Gushee's stuff. I'm reading him and Glen Stassen's "Kingdom Ethics: Following Jesus in Contemporary Context" which has been endorsed by many evangelical scholars including, Stanley Grenz, Dallas Willard, Ronald Sider and Timothy George, just to name a few. I said that to say this (as a former pastor of mine use to say), JEE said this:
quote:
I affirm that as a Christian I am to love my enemies. You however seem stuck in the idea that the United States is the same thing as "Christian." The U.S. is not morally obligated to love its enemies.
But Stassen and Gushee say that the Sermon on the Mount, the main body of teaching by Christ was not merely meant for us PERSONALLY, but Jesus directs his criticism toward the governing authorities of the day against the backdrop of the inaugurating of his Kingdom. In other words, people and nations (governments) "participate in the reign of God" as they pratice not the dyadic (we don't merely passively follow the prohibitions but actively participate in the transforming initiatives[tryadic]) but the tryadic Sermon on the Mount.
By the way, Meph Man? I e-mailed ya dawg. On a couple of occasions. You better respond. 
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 11/5/2004 3:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Quest-
Sorry about that, I did not intend to make it look like your view was in line with Dobson's. It was just a chance a blow off some steam about his political endorcements. I agree with you that it is very difficult to not get caught up, but we are to look towards the heavenly. When I was driving in my car yesterday a Christian talk radio host was ripping on Edwards' concession speech because he didn't call for unity under the current administration. Then later in the program described Kerry as an evil man! This made me wonder what the would have happen if Kerry won! Would the christians do exactly what they now expect the democrats to do, support whomever won!? Would a christian leader step up and say, "we did not vote for Kerry, but now that he won, we need to become unified and support the current administration." It is only speculative and my opinion, but I hardly doubt a christian leader would do that! Are we to force our judeo-christian beliefs on unbelievers? Even though Bush is against abortion, he approved funding for planned parenthood which kills more babies a year then any other abortion clinics. What do we gain with Bush at the helm? Even though it is very difficult I think it is very important to not mix politics and religion. Many christians speak of Iraq as a just war. Is it as just as the crusades were?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 11/5/2004 9:46 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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