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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Position towards Homosexuals | Forum Quick Jump
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JEE
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 1/4/2005 4:36 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
If you believe that, at least within SOME people, homosexual intentionality and desire is a powerful, internal, INVOLUNTARY impulse...and this impulse is NOT sin in and of itself...
would this imply that, in your mind, enduring homosexual longing is more a PHYSIOLOGICAL or PSYCHOSOCIAL phenomena than a INDIVIDUAL MORAL CHOICE?
Yes, in some cases that would be a reasonable explanation as to the reason behind their impulses. For instance, two very good friends of mine were horribly molested as childen, and their story is that ever since that happened to them, they have "felt different," and have struggled with impulses to have homosexual sex with others, and have never once experienced heterosexual desires, though they would prefer not to have these desires, and in fact desperately wish to be heterosexual. In such a case, the genesis of their desires was not something they ever consciously willed to happen.
I do hope to help those God leads to me to eventually find total freedom from such involuntary impulses, and I have seen some success, though not as much as I would prefer personally. In my opinion, such bondage is no different in principle than trying to minister deliverance to a demon-possessed person, inasmuch as both situations originated outside of the sufferer due to a violation of their body and soul by another, and are to a large extent beyond his or her volitional control.
John
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/4/2005 4:41 PM (GMT -6) | |
Wow, John.
IMHO, such (inborn) 'orientation' is about as intentional as being born with brown eyes.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/4/2005 4:52 PM (GMT -6) | | .
Mephi wrote:
quote:
would this imply that, in your mind, enduring homosexual longing is more a PHYSIOLOGICAL or PSYCHOSOCIAL phenomena than a INDIVIDUAL MORAL CHOICE?
John:
Do you believe that you chose to be hetrosexual?
Was it conscious 'moral' choice, or were you simply born with a particular orientation?
More akin to being born with, say, brown eyes?
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/4/2005 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | . quote:
But no, I don't buy into the "born gay" idea at all.
I respectfully disagree.
<><
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/4/2005 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | .
Excerpt from website:
'By-Pass The Liberal Media Filter, Come Here For Your News'
Hm. Do you suppose this particular site could be biased?
Peace & blessings,
<><
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/4/2005 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | | .
quote:
Excerpt from website:
'By-Pass The Liberal Media Filter, Come Here For Your News'
Hm. Do you suppose this particular site could be biased?
Peace & blessings,
<><
John wrote:
quote:
No more biased that you and the other liberals on this board.
Heh.
John
John wrote:
quote:
But by all means, defeat Mr. Lively's arguments if you can. I'd really like to see it done.
Sorry, John.
I'm not biting.
I'm not interested in such games.
Goodnight.
<><
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/5/2005 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Good Afternoon, John:
.
JEE wrote:
quote:
May, I'm not playing a game at all; I'm as serious as a heart attack.
I suppose I should apologize for standing with God
against sin.
Just
YOU & GOD coming against "sin," huh?
I think there may be something wrong with that picture.
Where's Jesus?
.
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------
F.Y.I.:
Inspiring message attached.
Peace & blessings,
<><
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Woodland Hills Church,
sermon archive:
12/5/2004 – THE FATHER IS ALWAYS WORKING , By Greg Boyd
http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-12-05_Boyd_The-Father-Is-Always-Working_64kbps.mp3
SOURCE:
Woodland Hills Church - Sermons
http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_26.htm
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kingsaint
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 80
| Posted 1/5/2005 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Mephi for directing the conversation the way you did. I suppose I wouldn't want to say that "homosexual orientation" is o.k. if it is against the intentions of God, for the orientation itself could be a product of a fallen world ("systemic sin"). This could be true even if homosexuality is genetic, psychosociological or whatever. (I can imagine a lot of genetics contrary to God's intentions.) Perhaps the route of making an orientation/act distinction is only an attempt to show grace to those in the grips of this systemic sin. That is, it takes seriously the possibility that one's sexual orientation is not in one's moral control in the same sense as are other things. True, the goal ought to be "new creation" without any orientation to homosexuality, but that new creation might not be heterosexual either. (Jesus did not affirm marriage in the age to come, eunuchs for the kingdom, Jesus and Paul were celibate etc.) Come to think of it, how much "grace" does this disctinction really buy anyway? Are homosexuals who are interested in Christianity relieved to know that their orientation is fine as long as they don't act on it?
In other words, given that homosexuality is a sin, how does the Church reach out to homosexuals without coming across as unloving?
"Nobody who omits doing good works nowadays does so in order not to be tempted to become self-righteous; he omits it because it is easier."
--Philip Merlan, "Toward the Understanding of Kierkegaard" | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/5/2005 11:28 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings, John:
If you have ears to hear,
simply listen:
.
12/5/2004 – THE FATHER IS ALWAYS WORKING , By Greg Boyd
http://gregboyd.officehiway.com/2004/2004-12-05_Boyd_The-Father-Is-Always-Working_64kbps.mp3
SOURCE:
Woodland Hills Church - Sermons
http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_26.htm
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 1/9/2005 1:49 AM (GMT -6) | |
Just a couple of thoughts about the homosexuality issue…
It seems to be a symptom – not a gene, chemical imbalance, or whatnot – it is a symptom of something else that happened earlier to that person. From what I’ve read and heard about homosexuality, researchers have had some interesting findings. Homosexual men seem to have experienced one or more of the following things in their earlier years (childhood?): 1. they were abused/molested as a child/adolescent, 2. their fathers were very distant from them (non-supportive, non-communicative, etc.), 3. mothers were either the head of the household or over-controlling (i.e., weak father, was there but was not the head of the household).
There are “ex-gays” out there (See www.narth.org, www.pfox.org, www.sbministries.org etc.) and more and more research showing that the “I was born with it” belief previously perpetuated by the APA (Am. Psych. Assn.) is false.
It seems to be a symptom, not a trait. Ignoring it may not make it go away, but realizing that there may be some underlying psychological cause (and understanding God's love and grace) may help them (those who are homosexuals) win the battle if they desire to do so.
"Reality is harsh to the feet of shadows." - C.S.Lewis, The Great DivorcePost Edited (Violin for God) : 1/9/2005 12:52:20 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 1/9/2005 2:06 AM (GMT -6) | | |
from:
http://narth.com/docs/narthresponse.html
(excerpt from paper)
Concludes psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover:
"There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is genetic--and none of the research itself claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public."
Contrary to the "born that way" myth, scientific evidence links homosexuality to social and parental influences--including certain family patterns, same-sex peer problems, childhood molestation, and peer labelling--combined in varying degrees with biological predisposition in some people.
Because homosexuality is not simply genetic, it is subject to modification through counseling or psychotherapy.
"Reality is harsh to the feet of shadows." - C.S.Lewis, The Great DivorcePost Edited (Violin for God) : 1/9/2005 9:55:33 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 1/9/2005 10:42 PM (GMT -6) | | One last thing about the "I was born this way" theory...
Suppose Jeffrey Dahlmer or Charles Manson were to say this for example...
"I was born with it and had no choice."
Would you buy it?
We still must agree that God desires us to follow Him and His way (His moral law). To do otherwise while making up excuses is actually not following Him. To at least make a persistent attempt... that's following Him.
And about judging others.... we are supposed to IN LOVE inform our brothers and sisters of our concerns about their sin, and support them to recovery. If they choose to not repent, then let them take that up with God. (Still love the sinner but hate the sin.)
The "judge not lest you be judged" thing is talking about this: if you see someone doing some kind of sin and you're doing the same sin without repenting, don't go up to them to correct them until you have dealt with your own sin.
Read all of Matthew 7:1-5; don't take it out of context (most people quote just 7:1 without seeing how Jesus qualifies it.)
"Reality is harsh to the feet of shadows." - C.S.Lewis, The Great DivorcePost Edited (Violin for God) : 1/9/2005 9:56:00 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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