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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/5/2004 6:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | The buzz is that the moral vote was the deciding factor in the presidential election. Is there a culture war dividing our nation, if so why?
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/5/2004 6:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Have children become a “nuisance” like the gambling and prostitution Kerry suggests terrorism once was. Have feminist taught us to accept abortion as a form of birth control as they pursue a selfish passion of equality with men in the workforce? I’m all for equal pay for equal work, but has there been an over correction of equal career pursuits due to selfish ambition? Have you noticed the onslaught of slanders towards one of the most honorable jobs in American, the housewife? The housewife has been frowned on as we see a new breed of discrimination towards woman. Please don’t burden America with the inconvenience of pregnancy and child rearing. Could you imagine Hillary Clinton becoming the first woman president and then miraculously becoming pregnant? Wow, would her competence be threatened to lead our country if she was burdened by breast feeding while performing our Nations business?
Is fear driving woman to compete with men, our men feeding this fear by not being accountable as good family providers, husbands and fathers? It's the lack of good men upholding their responsibilities as fathers that's compounding abortion along with the sexual perversion that’s sweeping through America. What I don’t understand is how we as Christians can turn our other cheek to the immortally of our neighbors, is this what Jesus meant when he said to turn the other cheek? Mind you, I don’t mean to say we our called to condemn our neighbors, no not by any means. But how can we just ignore the immoral culture we live in and then turn around and say we love our neighbor?
As I have stated before, I believe government is intended to control those that are out of control. Christians are simply called to influence others and control ones self. It is not law makers that will change lives, but lives that will change law makers. Lives need to be transformed through Christ and flow out to our culture through His church body. Our democracy reflects who we are, likewise, so does our church. I submit it's our church foremost, and our government second, that is failing America?
Peace,
Mark
Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".
Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.
http://www.abortionno.com/Resources/fastfacts.html
Post Edited (sparknheart) : 4/8/2005 8:30:32 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 11/5/2004 7:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Is this meant to be a partisan comparison?
If not, why were only Democrats referenced? (John Kerry; Hillary Clinton).
Does the topic intend to infer that those who did not vote for
George Bush -- have fewer "moral values"?
What if my "moral values" cannot support an unjust war?
 (sad face)
Peace & blessings,
<><
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 11/5/2004 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | |
.
I am a Christian.
I voted my conscience. And, I voted for "moral values."
IMPORTANT: This does not mean that I voted for a particular political party.
God is not a Republican; or, a Democrat.
And, neither political party has a "corner on the market" regarding "moral values."
In my humble opinion, unjust wars are not moral.
Therefore, I did not vote for George Bush.
As believers, we all share much common ground.
Perhaps the primary difference between Christian Democrats and
Christian Republicans is that at times, we may have differing priorities regarding "moral values." (For example, while both groups may be Pro-LIFE, their definitions of an "unjust" war may be worlds apart).
However, it is important to for us to remember that my priorities are not better (or, worse) than those of my brother or sister in Christ who does not share my political worldview.
Some of our political priorities -- may simply be different.
My point is that while a majority of Christians would sincerely
state that they voted for "moral values," a large number of those same people did not vote for the same political candidate.
It is my hope that believers (as a group) do not become so partisan -- and, divided -- that those who are not "moral enough" according to the Far-right definition, are judged to belong to an "amoral" culture.
Peace & blessings,
<><
.
sparknheart wrote:
quote:
The buzz is that the moral vote was the deciding factor in the presidential election. Is there a culture war dividing our nation, if so why?
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/5/2004 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
Is this meant to be a partisan comparison?
If not, why were only Democrats referenced? (John Kerry; Hillary Clinton).
Does the topic intend to infer that those who did not vote for
George Bush -- have fewer "moral values"?
What if my "moral values" cannot support an unjust war?
(sad face)
Peace & blessings,
<><
.
Sorry Mayflower,
The original question was not bias. I grew up in a democratic house and still consider myself to be very liberal and open-minded. I'm just trying to understand what’s happing to America, how such cultural division has evolved. I pray for peace in the world and unity in our Nation. I'm all ears and would be glad to hear from others, what's your take?
Shalom,
Mark | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 11/5/2004 7:46 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Thank you, Brother.
Peace...
<><
__________________________________________________________
In essentials, unity; In matters of opinion, liberty;
In all things, love.
__________________________________________________________
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/5/2004 9:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
.
I am a Christian.
I voted my conscience. And, I voted for "moral values."
IMPORTANT: This does not mean that I voted for a particular political party.
God is not a Republican; or, a Democrat.
And, neither political party has a "corner on the market" regarding "moral values."
In my humble opinion, unjust wars are not moral.
Therefore, I did not vote for George Bush.
As believers, we all share much common ground.
Perhaps the primary difference between Christian Democrats and
Christian Republicans is that at times, we may have differing priorities regarding "moral values." (For example, while both groups may be Pro-LIFE, their definitions of an "unjust" war may be worlds apart).
However, it is important to for us to remember that my priorities are not better (or, worse) than those of my brother or sister in Christ who does not share my political worldview.
Some of our political priorities -- may simply be different.
My point is that while a majority of Christians would sincerely
state that they voted for "moral values," a large number of those same people did not vote for the same political candidate.
It is my hope that believers (as a group) do not become so partisan -- and, divided -- that those who are not "moral enough" according to the Far-right definition, are judged to belong to an "amoral" culture.
Hello Mayflower,
The cultural division of our country was quite evident in the election 4 years ago when we were not at war with Iraq. I don’t think the war fully explains your position. I don’t think we are consciously killing any children in Iraq, can we say the same about our own children? The view I stated above was not meant to be so much about the political left or right, but about the polarization of our churches and how we derived at such differing moral views. Please look at the alarming statistics of Christian women having abortions. Only 23.7 of abortions have no religious affiliation. Similar, just about as many Protestants get divorced as pagans. I’m not pointing fingers or think I have solutions, I’m just asking the question why? Is it because of the new age world religion seeping into our church? Is it the man centered vs. God centered theology? Is it tolerance of no moral law in the name of love?
Ok, you could say I’m in the love camp, but I’m doing some soul searching of God’s moral law.
Trying to find a healthy balance of love and law,
Mark
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 11/5/2004 11:16 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings, Mark:
I must attend a very important meeting (Parent/Teacher conferences!), so I will respond when I have a little more time....
I just wanted to quickly say that this is an interesting topic;
and, I look forward to brainstorming with you. I hope others join in with their views...
Thanks for being open and transparent regarding your concerns.
I truly appreciate that.
F.Y.I., we do share common ground on some of the concerns you expressed.
I do agree that the present "AMERICAN" culture is in dire need of a "moral values" overhaul; however,
I sincerely do not believe that the genesis of the problem is a Christian Democrat ~versus~ Christian Republican issue.
All for now...
Peace & blessings,
<><
sparknheart wrote:
quote:
Ok, you could say I’m in the love camp, but I’m doing some soul searching of God’s moral law.
Trying to find a healthy balance of love and law
.
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 11/5/2004 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Briefest thought experiement.
Roe v. Wade is overturned. Brainstorm about possible (likely and unlikely) ramifications. What could things look like? Prohibition of the 20s and 30s? What?
Let's see some thoughts.
PS: PLEASE don't take this as me advocating either pro-life OR pro-choice. PLEASE don't take this as me "judging" either side. PLEASE, for God's sake. Thought experiment.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/5/2004 7:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Briefest thought experiement.
Roe v. Wade is overturned. Brainstorm about possible (likely and unlikely) ramifications. What could things look like? Prohibition of the 20s and 30s? What?
Let's see some thoughts.
Here are a few things that come to mind:
Some likely cons:
* To outlaw abortion would create additional criminals, potentially paving the road to other crimes.
* In some cases crime pays, we need look no further then the billion-dollar illegal drug trade.
* Illegal profits promote corruption that takes funds to fight and enforce.
Some likely pros:
* Laws deter impermissible behavior meant to protect us from doing harm to others and ourselves.
* Laws set standards that can help convict our conscience of what’s right and wrong.
· Laws give us reason to believe there will be consequences for our actions.
Unlikely
* It is unlikely that laws in themselves will change neither the hearts of people nor their lack of morality.
* It is unlikely that unwanted, unexpected children will be welcomed into functional families when mothers are likely unmarried, and unprepared.
* It’s unlikely that men will step up and accept their responsibility. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/5/2004 7:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Great Book!!
Hellfire Nation
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300105177/qid=1099696330/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-5081285-8265721?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Thanks Spen, it sounds like a good book to read. 
Book Description:
This extraordinary retelling of American political history shows that—despite the clear separation of church and state—religion lies at the heart of American politics. “This is American history the way I like it, prodigiously researched and vivaciously told. Mr. Morone has a knack for peeling off veneers, for locating the surprising fact, for adopting the unexpected and illuminating slant. He is a rarity, a scholar who is never boring.”— | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/6/2004 3:58 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/15/2004 5:53 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by the Wicker Man
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
The prohibition movement appealed to many women because it allowed them a means to act at a time when they could not vote. Bribery, fraud, and drunkenness at the polls were all reasons 19th century politicians gave for denying women the vote.
"Drunkenness at the polls"? -- BRILLIANT!
Now we just vote in the AA guys.  | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 11/15/2004 5:59 PM (GMT -6) | | The Puritans introduced the moral vote:
In 1620 one of the separatist congregations sailed for New England on the Mayflower. In New England the colonists established independent congregations, each congregation having the right to choose its own leaders and discipline its members. While church and state supported each other, neither one was allowed to interfere in the affairs of the other.
In America, Puritan moralism and its sense of an elect people in covenant with God deeply affected the national character. The Puritan belief that communities were formed by covenants produced America’s first democratic institution, the town meeting. At the town meeting every church member had the right to speak, and decisions were made by majority rule. The Puritan emphasis on simplicity of worship, its asceticism (austerity and self-denial), and its Sabbatarianism remained influential into the 20th century. The Puritan devotion to popular education, high standards of morality, and many, if not all, democratic principles had an important effect on American life. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 2/7/2005 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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themuzicman
Always ready for lunch and the weekend
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 48
| Posted 4/7/2005 8:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Mayflower said...
Is this meant to be a partisan comparison?
If not, why were only Democrats referenced? (John Kerry; Hillary Clinton).
Let's see.... Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, Tom McDermott, Web Hubbell, Hilary Clinton, Robert "KKK" Byrd, "Drinkin'" Teddy "Chappaquiddic" Kennedy... need I go on?
The difference between the GOP and democrats is that when a republican gets into trouble, the GOP kicks him out (see Newt, Packwood, etc.) When a DEMOCRAT gets into trouble, they're treated as a hero being attacked by mean people, and kept in positions of power.
Now, you tell me why democrats have a problem with "moral" issues?
Mayflower said...
Does the topic intend to infer that those who did not vote for
George Bush -- have fewer "moral values"?
No, it just means that they're not as important to you.
Mayflower said...
What if my "moral values" cannot support an unjust war?
Well, that just means that you're inventing morals to try to justify your lack of application elsewhere.
Muz
"God is dead" - Nietzsche
"Nietzscheis dead" - God | | Back to Top | | |
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themuzicman
Always ready for lunch and the weekend
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 48
| Posted 4/8/2005 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Sahid said...
Yeah, remember that time when Republicans sold chemical weapons to Saddam and then were held accountable?.... oh yeah. They passed the buck on that one. But what about the time our Republican president traded arms for prisoners and didn't become a republican hero? Wait, no. How many murderous dictators have republican presidents knowingly installed? And how many of those presidents have been drummed out of the party?
Perhaps you've forgotten about Nixon.
Foreign policy is a much stickier issue, where right and wrong become really similar shades of grey, and often times presidents from both parties have used the ends to justify the means. Unfortunately, you can never tell at the time whether it's working or not, and presidents are usually long gone before these things work themselves out.
Sahid said...
Is Strom Thurmond an example of morality? The GOP only recoiled from his racism forty years later when it became a political problem.
Strom was a DIXIECRAT, a breakoff from the DEMOCRATS back then. Only upon his reformation from his racist ways did he become a republican.
Just an FYI, the republicans are to be creditted with the civil rights act of 1964 and the voting rights act of 1965. It was the southern democrats who opposed both, and almost caused them to fail. So, if you're looking for the racist party, stick with the democrats. (Higher percentage of the GOP voted for each.)
Sahid said...
The GOP gets rid of those who they see to be political liabilities. If Newt suddenly became popular among hispanic women, he'd be back in a heartbeat. Were Ted Kennedy to endorse Jeb in '08 the GOP would be throwing money his way.
And anyway, is an unforgiving attitude something to be proud of?
This isn't about unforgiveness. It's about character. Leaders who behave poorly in the GOP are removed. Leaders who behave poorly (and even violate the law) in the Democrat party are hailed as heros.
Muz
"God is dead" - Nietzsche
"Nietzscheis dead" - God | | Back to Top | | |
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