Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > (No Subject)

Forum Quick Jump

70 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

barryatk
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101

Posted 6/18/2004 9:41 AM (GMT -6)

Hey! My first foray into this style forum. I am a 49 yr.old man married since 20. We are in intense conflicts against each other. At issue are doctrines, church attendance(where we go),my calling, counseling, and more. I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare.
I've read dozens of marriage books, talked hours to friends, family, and pastor, prayed long and hard and am on the verge of filing for divorce. She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.
Now I guess this may be unusual for this site, but I'd like feedback on what the point is when God would OK a divorce. There is not adultery or other romantic interests involved. Just a constant barrage of disagreement and criticism... and the 4 horsemen that Gottman talks about in his marriage books.
I've prayed, again, I say, hard and have tried for years to get this marriage back and it seems have gotten nowhere or worse.

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 6/18/2004 10:30 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk

Hey! My first foray into this style forum. I am a 49 yr.old man married since 20. We are in intense conflicts against each other. At issue are doctrines, church attendance(where we go),my calling, counseling, and more. I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare. I've read dozens of marriage books, talked hours to friends, family, and pastor, prayed long and hard and am on the verge of filing for divorce. She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.
Now I guess this may be unusual for this site, but I'd like feedback on what the point is when God would OK a divorce. There is not adultery or other romantic interests involved. Just a constant barrage of disagreement and criticism... and the 4 horsemen that Gottman talks about in his marriage books.
I've prayed, again, I say, hard and have tried for years to get this marriage back and it seems have gotten nowhere or worse.

Hello barryatk,
I think you might know the answer, but here are some versus anyway:
Matthew 19:9 (NIV)
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
1 Cor. 7:10-11 (NIV)
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. [11] But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

If God wants you to stay together, what do you think the enemy wants?

Blessings,

Mark

barryatk
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101

Posted 6/18/2004 11:01 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk

Hey! My first foray into this style forum. I am a 49 yr.old man married since 20. We are in intense conflicts against each other. At issue are doctrines, church attendance(where we go),my calling, counseling, and more. I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare. I've read dozens of marriage books, talked hours to friends, family, and pastor, prayed long and hard and am on the verge of filing for divorce. She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.
Now I guess this may be unusual for this site, but I'd like feedback on what the point is when God would OK a divorce. There is not adultery or other romantic interests involved. Just a constant barrage of disagreement and criticism... and the 4 horsemen that Gottman talks about in his marriage books.
I've prayed, again, I say, hard and have tried for years to get this marriage back and it seems have gotten nowhere or worse.

Hello barryatk,
I think you might know the answer, but here are some versus anyway:
Matthew 19:9 (NIV)
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
1 Cor. 7:10-11 (NIV)
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. [11] But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

If God wants you to stay together, what do you think the enemy wants?

Blessings,

Mark
Thanks Mark, very much. And yes I know those verses. I know surely God's will is for this and every marriage to be joy-filled and productive. I also know that each spouse has choices to make. No one argues that adultery is a ground for divorce even before our Holy God. I don't want divorce and I do believe the awful pain of living years in contempt and dysgrace are also not God's will. I have friends that say there is a limit to what God expects one to endure. They'd say they went beyond even that limit in trying to stay with their wives... enduring years of what I'd call abuse...sometimes physical and usually emotional. How many days would you be willing to come home to a spouse who ridicules and condemns you in the very things you hold dear...callings from God, ministry in your local church,even the way you father your children?

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 6/18/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk
Thanks Mark, very much. And yes I know those verses. I know surely God's will is for this and every marriage to be joy-filled and productive. I also know that each spouse has choices to make. No one argues that adultery is a ground for divorce even before our Holy God. I don't want divorce and I do believe the awful pain of living years in contempt and dysgrace are also not God's will. I have friends that say there is a limit to what God expects one to endure. They'd say they went beyond even that limit in trying to stay with their wives... enduring years of what I'd call abuse...sometimes physical and usually emotional. How many days would you be willing to come home to a spouse who ridicules and condemns you in the very things you hold dear...callings from God, ministry in your local church,even the way you father your children?

Welcome to the board barryatk, and you’re welcome.

Is your wife a non-believer that wants to leave you? It don't sound like she wants a divorce, she went to counseling.

barryatk
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101

Posted 6/18/2004 11:27 AM (GMT -6)

Welcome to the board barryatk, and you’re welcome.

Is your wife a non-believer that wants to leave you? It don't sound like she wants a divorce, she went to counseling.

Thanks sooo much. I've been seeking truth on this a long time. My wife is a believer. We've been together 30 years, since college days. I said she could be divorced or go into counseling with me. For years she has refused counseling and I had arrived at a place of desperation. I am a worship leader at a small church, very blessed in fellowship with the pastor, and again she dislikes my church and pastor as she blames them for the way she thinks I am. So, the counseling has been fairly engaging.. it just seems she doesn't get real with the counselor. We get home and kinda go back to the same basic stuff as always. Like one thing is she says I can have her or stay with this pastor...cause she believes he's bad for me. I say she's misjudged him. Thanks for your interest. I believe many people struggle with this kind of thing and also with the counsel given in the church.
Blessings!

quest for truth
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479

Posted 6/18/2004 1:45 PM (GMT -6)

Can I ask you a question? What were the reasons you married your wife? What qualities attracted you to her?

Have you two tried to do communication? I mean just the two of you, alone, without distractions. If you have, have you shared how her criticism has made you feel?

Marriage is VERY hard. I believe anyone who makes it to "death do you part" deserves entrance into heaven with no exceptions. Tongue

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 6/18/2004 4:16 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk

Hey! My first foray into this style forum. I am a 49 yr.old man married since 20. We are in intense conflicts against each other. At issue are doctrines, church attendance(where we go),my calling, counseling, and more. I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare.
I've read dozens of marriage books, talked hours to friends, family, and pastor, prayed long and hard and am on the verge of filing for divorce. She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.
Now I guess this may be unusual for this site, but I'd like feedback on what the point is when God would OK a divorce. There is not adultery or other romantic interests involved. Just a constant barrage of disagreement and criticism... and the 4 horsemen that Gottman talks about in his marriage books.
I've prayed, again, I say, hard and have tried for years to get this marriage back and it seems have gotten nowhere or worse.

Hi,

I respect and appreciate your courage in sharing here, and I think I hear your heart in this, in wanting some relief from the obvious pain that the two of you are in. I would like to pray for you, first and foremost, but also to offer some insights, if I may.

I can relate.

Because we are in pastoral care, I can honestly say that sometimes separation (and possibly divorce) are necessary. I would never tell you that you should get a divorce, even if I knew you both, and Knew all the details - but I do know, first hand, how painful a relationship can be for both people.

I do not believe that adultery is the only reason for divorce. If that were the case, most, if not all people would have cause for divorce (not speaking of physcial adultery alone).

Some couples don't do well counselling together. I know that from experience as well. Sometimes there is healing that needs to take place in one persons life, and that can dramatically affect a relationship. One thing I have learned though, is that any change affects a relationship. Have either of you, or both of you gone through changes that would affect the way you relate to each other?

Be careful who you listen to. You will get a lot of well meaning advice. It really does help to talk to a couple who have worked through struggles and have a healthy marriage. By healthy I don't mean free from conflict.

Have you tried praying together? It's amazing what praying together will do.

Have you tried just holding each other...nothing else. That might sound strange to you, but it communicates that you really matter to each other.

Are there other factors involved that might be hindering your relationship? Even ministry (as wonderful as that is), can harm a marriage. I know. We've been there too.

Please don't listen to the people (if there are those) who tell you that you shouldn't worship lead because you are struggling. We all struggle with something. He is our righteousness. The only reason to step aside for a time is if you believe that it would really help your relationship.

I don't want to sound like I am giving advice, without really praying for you. I will pray for you. I promise. I am passionate about prayer. I know it can change things.

I don't know if anyone here could advise you without knowing more. The scriptures are not black and white in this, and I do not believe that we have a Father who would have us suffer in a relationship for years, when it is really hurting both people. I do understand the sacredness of marriage and vows. Please don't misunderstand that.

Tha Father knows your heart in this, both of you, and that should be comforting. I hope it is.

I think I've said enough for now. I'll pray.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/19/2004 3:44 AM (GMT -6)

BarryAtK,

This is a very difficult subject. On the one hand the verse SparkNHeart quoted from Corinthians IS the command of the Lord. And we are to forgive one another as Christ forgave us. On the other hand, Jo-anne is right that you need a VERY good counselor. Because QuestForTruth is right; Marriage is frequently VERY hard. Hopefully, that will be some consolation - that your brethren also suffer these things in the world (from Peter's epistle).

I went to a class at work on social styles. That class has helped me understand the different ways people communicate and their different sensitivites more than any other training I've ever received. The four basic styles were Amiable, Analytical, Driver, and Expressive. If you can find a place where you and your wife can take a class like that you may be able to make some progress toward understanding each other better. You'll also get a better understanding of any contribution you may be bringing to the problem inadvertently, because the class shows the strengths AND WEAKNESSES of ALL styles. I will pray for both of you.

wjs

barryatk
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101

Posted 6/19/2004 4:59 AM (GMT -6)

Hey! Again. Sincere thanks to all you who read these thoughts and the responders, jefscott, moon river, and quest for truth.

I've immensely enjoyed your responses. More than anything I thank you for offers to pray and for the praying that follows. I'm impressed that no one has jumped on me about this stuff. I am certainly a blessed man, regardless of how the marriage turns out. I was attracted to this woman and believe she was an answered prayer prayed out by a young teen that didn't yet know enough to be in God's kingdom. She was charming, attractive, interesting to talk with, warm and kind. She was a born again but slacking off Christian and I was a PK(preachers kid) not any kind of BA Christian and we needed each other. I became saved as she married me and became pregnant within 2 years of our first meeting. I knew I needed huge help if I would ever be a good father. I felt more responsibility for children as they are so totally dependent.

For years I could usually "fix" most things or at least we could go through them "together". For the last 3-4 years I've not been able. Financial collapse, children in rebellion, physical injuries of life-threatening degree... and I'm no longer the Goliath Killer.

I could usually get things back again with letter writing, sharing how deeply committed I am, and declaring the Word o fGod for us. recently, really since I have been more open with friends and family, my letters are not effective, sometimes not read and just don't weigh in with her.

We've been in separate churches for 2 years and this is annoying. We say we believe in the submission of the wife, but when it comes to such essentials as where we go to church we disagreeably disagree.

We have had seasons of praying together. I have stopped usually cause the conflict even enters the prayer time. I have a better day at my work withou starting in conflict.

I have read and tried to understand where you all are coming from and I'm greatly impressed and moved to tears as I feel you care and love with His Love. Thank YOu All!

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 6/19/2004 6:05 AM (GMT -6)

Hello barryatk,
I’m the wrong guy to ask if you want a green light for divorce. I personally don’t think God is all about what you or I want. When we yield to His will, we might not necessarily receive what we want, but we will receive what we need. My belief is rooted in what I can do to serve Him and others, and that might more often then not mean personal sacrifices. I have no easy answers, but if you seriously want love restored to your marriage, then I will share my first hand experience in doing such. I’m no expert and my time is limited, but I will lend a helping hand if you ask. The love of God restored my marriage and I believe He wants to restore yours. I will pray for you and your family.

God Bless You,

Mark

Similitude
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 6/19/2004 6:08 AM (GMT -6)

Barryatk,

quote:
We've been in separate churches for 2 years and this is annoying. We say we believe in the submission of the wife, but when it comes to such essentials as where we go to church we disagreeably disagree.

I don't really know where the husband's authority would begin and end on this issue. On the one hand, the husband is to be submitted to; on the other hand, we are to obey God over man when the two conflict. Since we are commanded to "forsake not the assembly.." and since the purpose of the assembly is edification, I could see how a wife would feel compelled to go to a church where she gets edified - in a sense she could believe that is her duty to God. Now I'm not being dogmatic and I don't know what her motives are, but depending on her social style, to the extent that you could give her the benefit of the doubt, it may be helpful - it may go some way towards opening her up to better communication.

All I can say for sure is, that my relationship with my wife has improved because of what I learned from the social style class. It has also helped me raise my kids. It wasn't easy and it took some time to work through some barriers, but I believe we're all better off for it. If you think this kind of knowlege could benefit you, let me know and I'll talk to you by phone about it on my nickel. Regardless, you are in my prayers.

wjs

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 6/19/2004 6:48 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk

Hey! My first foray into this style forum. I am a 49 yr.old man married since 20. We are in intense conflicts against each other. At issue are doctrines, church attendance(where we go),my calling, counseling, and more. I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare.
I've read dozens of marriage books, talked hours to friends, family, and pastor, prayed long and hard and am on the verge of filing for divorce. She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.
Now I guess this may be unusual for this site, but I'd like feedback on what the point is when God would OK a divorce. There is not adultery or other romantic interests involved. Just a constant barrage of disagreement and criticism... and the 4 horsemen that Gottman talks about in his marriage books.
I've prayed, again, I say, hard and have tried for years to get this marriage back and it seems have gotten nowhere or worse.

I haven't heard of Gottman, and what are the "4 horsemen?"

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 6/19/2004 7:58 AM (GMT -6)

There are no black and white answers. My counselor never gave his own opinion on what we should do (thats very unprofessional). However, here are some very general things from my own experience.

As I understand it, if BOTH of you go to counseling and have familial and friends who are supportive PLUS other practical things, your chances of staying together are greater then if these things weren't happening i.e. if one of you goes to counseling that is not as good as if both of you go but it is better then if you both didn't go.

Don't expect instance answers (the problem of a microwave society). You didn't get to where you were at overnight so you won't come to a place of healing overnight either.

Do all you can do. In other words, have you tried EVERYTHING before calling it quits? I got that one from Electra a loooooong time ago and it has stayed with me almost consciously everyday till this day (she probably doesn't remember saying that to me...but I do!) Big Smile

I think what Greg has said on these boards in the past has been insightful (I actually still ponder the legitmacy of it because it goes against the grain of what Stanley Grenz says). Greg says this: A dead marriage can be like being attached to a dead horse. Sooner or later it is going to infect you and you will get sick and die. You'll need to cut yourself from it. Again, no black and white answers. No time limits. And though there may be truth to that, I sometimes wonder if the pyschologization or the "therapeutic culture" is what is the driving force behind Greg's statment. In other words, Greg is using therapeutic language, i.e. "This is not HEALTHY for me!" or "This is an UNHEALTHY relationship!"or "God wants me HAPPY,"or "You shouldn't expect to be in that unhappy relationship all your life!" I wonder if that goes too far sometimes. Grenz says that the Christian should NEVER initate divorce and that the time in which you find yourself SPECIFICALLY in at present is the way in which God teaches us patience. Again, when do you declare it dead? There are no black and white answers. God can breath life into dead (the deadiest of) objects. He is full of surprises.

Jo-Anne's advice was awesome. Know that we walk with you (some of us in empathy, some in sympathy) hopefully all in prayer.

Brandon

"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form

Wade
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 1

Posted 6/19/2004 8:04 AM (GMT -6)

Barryatk, my wife Jo-Anne (moon river j)has allerted me to your dilemna. We have come through a very distressing period of time in the last two years. Our major problem has been communication. We have had some very strained theological debates also. She asks about what major changes might have taken place in either of your lives because that was the catylist for intense pain in our lives.
It appears to me that your wife has made a step forward to go to councelling. It appears that she does want to stay together. the people in the youth treatment center that I work in had come to the realization that we had a huge communication problem. We listened to a lecture by a man called Rosenthal (I believe was his name). To make a long story short, I looked into his marriage councelling information and found what I believe is one of the most important steps in councelling in marriage. When people have difficulty communicating he suggests that each of the partners carefully think about three of the most important things they NEED from the other.
I recognize that if I were a betting man, a couple of the things your wife might say are:
-I need to be free to attend the church of my choosing where my needs are met. this of course would suggest that you need to make some serious thoughts and considerations. Which is God requiring of me most right now in my life - unity in my family or ministry. think hard about this one, since choosing ministry in the short haul, may lead to termination of your marriage. If that happens, will you have ministry or at least the ministry that you hold so dearly now.
-I need to be accepted and valued for the theological positions that I hold to. You may not agree with some of them, and in fact quite vehemently opposed to them, but really, in ministry don't we deal with that in almost every person in our church? As a personal note, when my wife began walking up the path of OPEN THEISM, I suggested to her that she may be WHACKED!!! We have both over the course of over a year come to an acceptable No Fly Zone. Some things we just choose not to talk about and watch as each other forge through their own inner theological debate. I believe strongly in the priesthood of the believer. She also is a priest before God.
You may feel that you are loosing the submission aspect, but in reality you are choosing to love her, and hoping that somewhere along the way that she may choose to walk with you and open up the lines of communication.
These thoughts may cause some problems for those that are close to you and supporting your present position, but as I have learned in working with teenagers who are deeply troubled, if it isn't working, find a new way of attending to the problem. Ask those same people, is my present position more important than my marriage.
I say these things to you because, at one point in my ministry is felt forced to make a similar dicision. I left a place of ministry that I felt called to, and a town for that matter because I concluded that to remain in that ministry would jeprodize my family. I chose my family and God has resored both family and ministry.
I guess to sum up. Communicate boldly to your wife (and chidren if need be), that you will do, whatever it takes to make your marriage and family work. You will provide whatever is within your power to communicate that they are the most important people in this world to you.
God will bless that!
God will propel you into a more productive ministry than you have experienced so far.
On the flip side, when you have done all that and your marriage and home become a constant battle ground, that continues to deliver pain to all, that a man must talk to God and decide to stop the pain. At that point there really isn't a marriage anyway.
No God does not like divorce, but he is not happy with ongoing pain. And he will forgive anyone who divorces, and he can bring them into another relationship that can demonstrate peace, joy and happiness.
We will pray with you on your journey.

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 6/19/2004 2:10 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Wade

Barryatk, my wife Jo-Anne (moon river j)has allerted me to your dilemna. We have come through a very distressing period of time in the last two years. Our major problem has been communication. We have had some very strained theological debates also. She asks about what major changes might have taken place in either of your lives because that was the catylist for intense pain in our lives.
It appears to me that your wife has made a step forward to go to councelling. It appears that she does want to stay together. the people in the youth treatment center that I work in had come to the realization that we had a huge communication problem. We listened to a lecture by a man called Rosenthal (I believe was his name). To make a long story short, I looked into his marriage councelling information and found what I believe is one of the most important steps in councelling in marriage. When people have difficulty communicating he suggests that each of the partners carefully think about three of the most important things they NEED from the other.
I recognize that if I were a betting man, a couple of the things your wife might say are:
-I need to be free to attend the church of my choosing where my needs are met. this of course would suggest that you need to make some serious thoughts and considerations. Which is God requiring of me most right now in my life - unity in my family or ministry. think hard about this one, since choosing ministry in the short haul, may lead to termination of your marriage. If that happens, will you have ministry or at least the ministry that you hold so dearly now.
-I need to be accepted and valued for the theological positions that I hold to. You may not agree with some of them, and in fact quite vehemently opposed to them, but really, in ministry don't we deal with that in almost every person in our church? As a personal note, when my wife began walking up the path of OPEN THEISM, I suggested to her that she may be WHACKED!!! We have both over the course of over a year come to an acceptable No Fly Zone. Some things we just choose not to talk about and watch as each other forge through their own inner theological debate. I believe strongly in the priesthood of the believer. She also is a priest before God.
You may feel that you are loosing the submission aspect, but in reality you are choosing to love her, and hoping that somewhere along the way that she may choose to walk with you and open up the lines of communication.
These thoughts may cause some problems for those that are close to you and supporting your present position, but as I have learned in working with teenagers who are deeply troubled, if it isn't working, find a new way of attending to the problem. Ask those same people, is my present position more important than my marriage.
I say these things to you because, at one point in my ministry is felt forced to make a similar dicision. I left a place of ministry that I felt called to, and a town for that matter because I concluded that to remain in that ministry would jeprodize my family. I chose my family and God has resored both family and ministry.
I guess to sum up. Communicate boldly to your wife (and chidren if need be), that you will do, whatever it takes to make your marriage and family work. You will provide whatever is within your power to communicate that they are the most important people in this world to you.
God will bless that!
God will propel you into a more productive ministry than you have experienced so far.
On the flip side, when you have done all that and your marriage and home become a constant battle ground, that continues to deliver pain to all, that a man must talk to God and decide to stop the pain. At that point there really isn't a marriage anyway.
No God does not like divorce, but he is not happy with ongoing pain. And he will forgive anyone who divorces, and he can bring them into another relationship that can demonstrate peace, joy and happiness.
We will pray with you on your journey.

Hi,
This may look pretty vulnerable, posting like this, but perhaps it will help you feel somehow like you truly are not alone.

I know how intense the struggle can get, and how painful.

Still praying for you.

God Bless,
Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/19/2004 4:18 PM (GMT -6)

Marriage

My heart goes out to you. And to your wife. I won't try to tell you what to do. In no way do I underestimate your hurts. But after some thought it seems worth saying that some things don't change with situations. Recognizing them does not make things simpler. But thinking about marriage without clear understanding of its nature and potential just leaves us "tossed on waves" or blown around by surface winds. We need to have bearings based on reality. And we need to know what is possible. Hopefully with no pretense, let me make a few remarks...

Created by God is how scripture regards marriage. But we don't all marry. What can be said that pertains to all of us? Well, humanity is "created male and female." And that is the true nature of our humanity -- married or not. The Christian school I teach in has many single women who work tirelessly with special education kids of all ages and difficulties. They commit themselves to serving others in sacrificial ways that marriage would limit. But especially with them I can see that humanity is the combination of male and female contribution, perspective. And the wonderful essence that results when female contributes to male and male contributes to female defines all of our humanity. It constructs the well from which we all draw. God created it that way.

It is sometimes tempting to try to have it the "male way" or its counterpart; but as Paul writes about the Body of Christ "the strength with which every joint supplies" lies in how the bricks work together to form the house. Strong bricks with weak mortar don't cut it. Sacrificing "individuality" to become more truly a "person" is in order. I've seen this at work successfully in organizations like schools and churches, and in sports teams. This can be most clearly seen the Bible where Christ says, "Unless a man take up his cross and follow me..." When Paul mentions the Church (Christ's Body) and Marriage he does not make a comparison, but blurts out that they are one in the same "mystery." They are part of the same sacrifice of self to become part of something that God is building.

Marriage can both be said to be a "sacrament" and observed to not be on -- depending on the instance under consideration. I like to say that it is a "potential sacrament." It can 'become' one, but it also has to 'stay' one. No magic. Hard work. But the value is intrinsic -- a gold mine.

Marriage is both something within the church and outside of the church. It is something between men and between citizen and government, and community. And it is also something between humanity and the community of God. Historically there have been lots of different combinations, from marriages as strictly a civil contract, to marriage officiated only by the state church. But big ideas of what marriage is fails to help us. Ultimately a marriage is between THREE persons: the man, the woman, and God. Good or bad, these three are involved. Union with God is the same as becoming the most fully oneself. And that is the same as being "grafted onto the Vine." Living as a male alone, with no community of any sort with the "other half" results in inner sickness. Again, we need each other. Since we can't love God without loving our neighbor, loving the community of humans we are in is also loving God.

Being in a marriage is hard. Life is hard. Even for Adam and Eve--even without sin--life had its growth-producing challenges. Tone for muscles, character for the individual, and community for the group all require discipline, practice and help,

You say you feel faced with a seemingly huge obstacle. Perhaps you are. But think for a moment that it is not a "monolith." Those big stones in England, "Stonehenge" are monoliths. They are all one piece ('mono') and they are not part of what it around them any more than what is around them is a part of them. But marriage, just like the church and the community of humanity is not monolithic. For good or for bad we are inseparably a part of each other. Sink or swim.

For one thing, you cannot escape your maleness. Neither can you escape your need for femininity either one-on-one (even grandmotherly counts--pass the pie!) nor in community. Also, you cannot escape your need for community. Marriage is a unique community, something that some Christian mystics sometimes regard as a kind of church, when it functions right. Prayers, Paul says, can be heard or not heard according to the marital relationship.

What you have been in marriage would not stop outside of it. Hurt tends to bend us inwards. In society the broken-from-marriage must struggle to balance interest in themselves with compassion for others. A couple in my own family divorced; and while the former wife remarried successfully, while the husband's next marriage failed, and his third remains intact. (He and his present wife now attend the same suburban church as his first wife--a good church for those who hurt.) I've heard that those who succeed in their second marriage often believe that what they had to learn in that second marriage to make it work probably would have saved their first marriage too. Marriage has its mix of opposites and similarities. It’s learning to make it work, and learning that the rewards come from "sacrifices" that would be necessary whether in marriage or single anyways that shows us a crack-through-the-door into heaven. "Unless a grain of wheat fall and die it cannot bear fruit."

Whether you still love each other some in the "same way" that you did originally doesn't matter. Underneath that is the humanity that you cannot trade in. Humanity doesn't swap; it just shrinks or grows. For the two of you perhaps the pain has made it shrink. But if you realize that your union is a POTENTIAL sacrament (a door handle onto what can be opened up) of what it means for humanity to grow and be blessed, and to be united with God in love that cannot be destroyed -- selfless love -- then you can begin to spot the presence of God as that THIRD PERSON in your marriage. No way that any one human can live life under their own power. In the end we die. "Our help comes from the Lord." My own wedding vows contained "...with God's help..." God will keep you afloat while he graces your wife through your sacrifices. And he won't let you die inwardly in the process.

Billy Graham said that reading the Bible (try Psalms) and prayer are two things that he never missed in any day since he was saved. Add discipleship and you have the three things the dessert monks regarded as essential for growing in Christ. Bible, prayer and discipline.

Start with this simple monastic prayer: "Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner."

And after a while add this prayer to the Holy Spirit: "O Heavenly King, the comforter, the spirit of Truth, Who art present everywhere and fillest all things; Treasury of Blessings and Giver of Life; come and abide in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O Gracious One

There is no place that we can flee to and not find God. Even in our marriages! God's Spirit is "everywhere present, filling all things." And it’s a good thing too. We have lots of stains to be cleaned, and brokenness to be healed. We need our souls saved!!!

So, practically speaking for a moment . . . if you flee, you will only bring yourself with you. And you need all those in the community around you to heal. Doing so together is best. Divorce is never part of God's plan. Mercy says it can be done. But those who do require lots of discipline to go along with their healing. To flee just to please one's self is to denounce a union that includes God as one of the three persons. And while God will never abandon you (which means that he will continue attempting to discipline you through 'hard knocks' in order to save your soul) you can abandon God.

Make this a matter for the Church, some counseling that is BOTH God-fearing AND professional. (No self-appointed quacks, amateur pastors; nor liberals trying to untie the knot in a least painful way.)

Forgive me if I have said too much.

I'll pray for the two of you, and your church.

- PotOnWheel

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/19/2004 5:32 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk

Like one thing is she says I can have her or stay with this pastor...cause she believes he's bad for me.

Your wife is more important than your pastor.

Us men like power, influence, control. Women like to embrace, nurture, etc. If she has red lights and bells going off, then TAKE HER SERIOUSLY.

Unless she is trying to pull you away from God (and not some organization, or doctrinal possition -- remember that "true religion is first pure...peaceable...") then keep to the "church" of your marriage, and the church of your family. Finding another congregation can be easy enough. But your wife is one with whom you are joined "in Christ."

My blessed wife, who has endured me for 18 years had put into the inside of my wedding band: "A chord of three strands." Me, her and God.

Ask three other pastors of varying denominations for advice.

(I should be transparent: I'm obviously afraid that this pastor that you love so much is controling and sectarian, turning his congregation against others to cement allegence.)

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/19/2004 5:36 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk

We say we believe in the submission of the wife...

Submit one to the other (both of you) in the fear of Christ.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 6/19/2004 5:41 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Wade

You may feel that you are loosing the submission aspect, but in reality you are choosing to love her, and hoping that somewhere along the way that she may choose to walk with you and open up the lines of communication.
These thoughts may cause some problems for those that are close to you and supporting your present position, but as I have learned in working with teenagers who are deeply troubled, if it isn't working, find a new way of attending to the problem. Ask those same people, is my present position more important than my marriage.

Well said, Wade.

(Sorry, everyone, to post so many. My internet has been down for days now.)

quest for truth
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479

Posted 6/20/2004 3:30 AM (GMT -6)

barryatk, I will be praying because it sounds like there is a spiritual dimension here. From what I have read it may be that the underlying issue began before you ever married your wife. Perhaps diving deeper into the root of the problem will begin to open up the doors to discovery. Individual counseling may be very beneficial.

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 6/20/2004 9:27 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth

barryatk, I will be praying because it sounds like there is a spiritual dimension here. From what I have read it may be that the underlying issue began before you ever married your wife. Perhaps diving deeper into the root of the problem will begin to open up the doors to discovery. Individual counseling may be very beneficial.

Barry,

I'm still praying for you. I hope at the very least, you do not feel quite so alone in this. The responses on this thread have amazed me. They have encouraged me. No one is quick to judge here, but it seems that everyone really does want to help you find the "key" or just to encourage you to hang in there and find what it is that you believe is right for both of you. He is the God of the possible. He is also the God of new beginnings. He never gives up on us. In times like these, it helps to remember that He is ALL our righteousness. As alone or in pain as we feel, we're never alone.

How are things going. You are very courageous. Perhaps you'll inspire others to be as honest, as real and as vulnerable as you have been. I pray that He will be able to help you think clearly, and make choices wisely. I pray that you will be able to find times of rest and refreshment in Him. I pray that you will be encouraged. I sing on our worship team, and even in times of pain, I found that to be a great encouragement. His peace is there, even in the most tumultuous times of our lives. I pray that He will give you strength and comfort and restore joy to your walk. I pray that you will grow in an even sweeter relationship with Him. I will pray for your wife also. I know that she must be in pain as well. There are no easy answers.

I hope that you truly do feel that people care. Even people (like me) who have never met you. That in itself is amazing.

God bless,
Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 6/21/2004 4:26 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel

Marriage
Created by God is how scripture regards marriage. But we don't all marry. What can be said that pertains to all of us? Well, humanity is "created male and female." And that is the true nature of our humanity -- married or not. The Christian school I teach in has many single women who work tirelessly with special education kids of all ages and difficulties. They commit themselves to serving others in sacrificial ways that marriage would limit. But especially with them I can see that humanity is the combination of male and female contribution, perspective. And the wonderful essence that results when female contributes to male and male contributes to female defines all of our humanity. It constructs the well from which we all draw. God created it that way.

Notice that the language throughout POW's post is thoroughly theological and not fill with the therapeutic cultural vernacular. Big Smile

quote:
I've heard that those who succeed in their second marriage often believe that what they had to learn in that second marriage to make it work probably would have saved their first marriage too.

As Dobson says, "The grass may look greener on the other side of the fence but you still have to mow it."

I feel I can share this. When I went to counseling a few years ago with a wretched aching heart (which is still in the process of healing) my counselor told me to hold a pillow to my face and to incrementally take it away. At first all I could see was the pillow. But at each move, I could see more and more things outside of the edges of the pillow. Soon the pillow became small enough that I could see the counseling room. My counselor then told me that in time I would see the "bigger picture." He was right.

This is no time for ANOTHER relationship. Another relationship clouds the "bigger picture." It doesn't give one time to do inventory. To process. Why? Because it is a looking outward instead of inward to see one's role in the marriage. I was reading Madeleine L'engle's book "Sold into Egypt." On her talk about Jacob she says that it is amazing that Jacob could wrestle with an angel but never wrestled with himself (and we all know about Jacob!). Real and painstakingly honest people are hard to find.

Who knows, by doing so, maybe you will see some things you never seen before.

Brandon

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 6/21/2004 4:37 AM (GMT -6)

The stupid internet was down on Friday night before I left work so I wasn't able to post this until this morning (6/21/04).

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk

Welcome to the board barryatk, and you’re welcome.

Is your wife a non-believer that wants to leave you? It don't sound like she wants a divorce, she went to counseling.

Thanks sooo much. I've been seeking truth on this a long time. My wife is a believer. We've been together 30 years, since college days. I said she could be divorced or go into counseling with me. For years she has refused counseling and I had arrived at a place of desperation. I am a worship leader at a small church, very blessed in fellowship with the pastor, and again she dislikes my church and pastor as she blames them for the way she thinks I am. So, the counseling has been fairly engaging.. it just seems she doesn't get real with the counselor. We get home and kinda go back to the same basic stuff as always. Like one thing is she says I can have her or stay with this pastor...cause she believes he's bad for me. I say she's misjudged him. Thanks for your interest. I believe many people struggle with this kind of thing and also with the counsel given in the church.
Blessings!

It sounds like either one of three things. a.) She's got some serious emotional issues that she never worked out and for some reason it's just now surfacing. b.) She's picking up on something that you're not. God sometimes does use a man's wife to be intuitive, as women often naturally are, in order to warn him of stuff - i.e. Pilate's wife. c.) Is she beginning menopause? Don't laugh - sometimes that's a big factor in how a woman behaves at that time in her life. I've heard first-hand accounts from friends of how mean and wacko their moms got during menopause and they became much better after it was all finally over.

In your counseling sessions, have you been getting down into the nitty-gritty of why she believes there's something wrong with your pastor? If that's the main thing that's ruining your marriage and she won't bend, the right thing to do is to put your marriage first and go to another church and be in another fellowship if that's what she thinks is needed. God would not want His children divorcing "in His Name", as it were - in this case so that you can keep up this ministry you have. God would rather have you not doing a ministry at all and save your marriage, than letting your marriage be destroyed by a ministry. Once a person gets married, their spouse is to be put first, except if they want you to commit a sin against God or be treated like God. But, it's no sin to leave a ministry in order to preserve a marriage. That's the sacrifice you make when you take a spouse. That's why Paul told people to remain single if they could, because with a spouse sometimes you simply can't be in a certain ministry or even in a ministry at all. How would it feel to say, "I divorced my wife so that I could serve God?" Doesn't that sound contradictory? Doesn't that sound horribly twisted? I certainly wouldn't trust a person who divorced their spouse just so that he/she could continue in some ministry.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 6/21/2004 5:09 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by barryatk

I think the root of these things is spiritual- warfare.

She only agreed to counseling as I gave her that choice or divorce.

Hello barryatk,

I have found, one of the worse things you can do to a marriage is to play the “divorce” card trying to force your partner’s hand. The internal warfare of our minds is most often found in private pity parties hosted by the enemy himself. As long as you buy into believing that divorce is an option, then the enemy will leverage it against your marriage. If out of the corner of your eye you envision bliss with a new partner, then you will weaken the clarity needed to see the true beauty of your bride. It is NOT God that turns your eyes elsewhere disguised as a means to end your “suffering”. The enemy comes to kill and destroy all that is lovely. The enemy is not your wife, for she is your love, your beautiful bride. Turn away from your self and see the heart of your wife that reflects the image of God and His love. He is always teaching us how to love, and the sacrament of marriage is a daily field test. Wake up and remember the dream you once had for her heart and focus your eyes on rekindling the flame of her shattered heart. You are called to bring her good spirits and to protect her. See the little girl in her eyes, remembering, we are all children of God.

I pray that the healing love of God’s touch will trace the cracks of your hearts.

Blessings,

Mark

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 6/21/2004 5:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by BBBCanada
Notice that the language throughout POW's post is thoroughly theological and not filled with the therapeutic cultural vernacular.

AMEN

POW posted some very, very good stuff.

God bless you BBBCanada,
I think sharing your experience has shed insight on a very difficult subject.

70 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:09 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual