 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > (No Subject) | Forum Quick Jump
|
|  chance Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 157 | Posted 6/27/2001 11:29 AM (GMT -6) |   | To what extent do you believe the church should promote justice in our society? Should we attempt to promote justice through the government system?
I don't know if you have answered these questions in the CHRISTIANITY & CULTURE Q & A because the links to pages 2-5 are not working. They all come up saying "File not found".
This does seem to be an important issue for the church because we read often of God's desire to see justice (Deut 27:19; Prov 21:3; Mal 2:17; Matt 5:6) and of the saints desire to see the Lord judge and avenge their blood on the earth (Rev 6:10). So how important should bringing about justice be to us?
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 06/27/2001 4:32:26 PM
Edited by - chance on 07/04/2001 10:22:29 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  chance Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 157 | Posted 7/4/2001 5:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks for fixing those links so we could read them! The top links work (the ones at the end of the questions), but the links at the bottom of the page still don't work.
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 07/04/2001 10:43:42 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Triskal Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 198 | Posted 7/7/2001 4:03 PM (GMT -6) |   | What exactly do you mean by promoting justice? If you're referring to justice as in "eye for an eye" then I would say no, because God has made it clear that we are not to take revenge, but instead to love those who persecute us.
In His Grip, Matt
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 7/9/2001 2:06 PM (GMT -6) |   | Chance,
Good question. conservative Christians have often been accused of being so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good. i tend to agree. It seems like there is a cultural version of conservative Christianity which likes what it thinks is the "pro-family" (or pro-what-ever-I-happen-to be...ethnically, classwise, politically, etc.) emphasis of Christianity, but I think that this is simply a micro- (and thereby MIS-) application of God's justice for US but not so much for THEM. The discussion centers around the meaning of "neighbor". Of course, we know it is ALL who we interact with, but we like some neighbors more than others don't we?
So my answer is, the church should be radically concerned about justice, but probably not depending upon the usual institutions (government, that is) to see it through. Imagine the witness to the world the church would be if it genuinely brought about justice in its communities and the communities it comes into contact with, in a way that surpasses the world in every respect! Care for the widows, orphans, the dispossessed, etc...you are right, the Bible has LOTS to say about our responsibility to deliver justice.
Hope others pipe up here as well.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  accident Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 14 | Posted 7/9/2001 2:15 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
So my answer is, the church should be radically concerned about justice, but probably not depending upon the usual institutions (government, that is) to see it through.
Seems to me that government is one of the few institutions God has given us to ensure His justice is carried out. Why else would He call the government His "minister" and "revenger" (Romans 13:4)?
Edited by - accident on 07/09/2001 7:16:16 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 7/9/2001 4:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | Accident says: "Seems to me that government is one of the few institutions God has given us to ensure His justice is carried out. Why else would He call the government His "minister" and "revenger" (Romans 13:4)?"
Doc: 1) Do you think that Hilter was given his authority by God to "ensure His justice is carried out"? Or Stahlin, or Poh Pah (or however you spell the name of the sick Cambodian despot)...? If this is the correct reading of Rom. 13, there can, by definition, be no anti-Christ government. We must also give serious consideration to Scripture's depiction of all governement as under the control of Satan (e.g. Lk 4:6; I Jn 5:19; Rev. 11:15).
2) As Bonhoffer realized, to say that governement is God's ordained means of carrying out his justice is not the same as saying that all governments in fact carry out God's justice. When they carry out justice, they are doing God's will. When they don't, they are not.
3) Whatever we make of God's use of governments, the issue of what God wants from the church is a different matter. The Church is called to follow Jesus Christ alone, and Jesus repeatedly refused to have any relationship with the government. Despite the fact that the single most pressing issue for the Jews of the day was what they should think of the governement, and despite their repeated attempts to pull Jesus into political issues -- indeed, make him a political messiah -- he resolutely refused. "My kingdom is not of this world."
We are citizens of heaven before we are citizens of any earthly nation. Like Abraham, we are aliens in a foreign land. We are warriors stationed behind enemy lines with a mandate to help tobble the enemy empire. As good soldiers, we must not "get involved in civilian affairs, but always seek to please our commanding officer."
So, with Modes, I believe we must work for justice on all levels -- individual, societal, institutional, etc... But we should do it by the means God has given us: his Word, his Truth, his Spirit, his Love. As Cal Thomas so eloquently and powerfully wrote in Blinded by Might (a GREAT book!), when Christians try to co-opt the government to further their own agenda, they end up being co-opted by the government to their own ends.
Doc (the anabaptist) 
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  accident Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 14 | Posted 7/9/2001 4:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | Doc Boyd,
Thanks for the response!
You said,
quote: Doc: 1) Do you think that Hilter was given his authority by God to "ensure His justice is carried out"? Or Stahlin, or Poh Pah (or however you spell the name of the sick Cambodian despot)...?
It's Pol Pot.
And, in response to your question: In a word, yes. In their respective positions, Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot had the duty to carry out God's vengeance. Just because they neglect that duty or misuse their authority doesn't mean they're not accountable to God.
Someone I deem wise once wrote,
quote: It seems to me. . . that if God is going to give free wills to His creatures, He has to allow for the possibility of them misusing that freedom, even if that means hurting others.
One would think that, as this applies to whatever limited freedoms and authorities we have as citizens, it also applies to the greater freedoms and authorities our leaders have.
quote:
2) As Bonhoffer realized, to say that governement is God's ordained means of carrying out his justice is not the same as saying that all governments in fact carry out God's justice. When they carry out justice, they are doing God's will. When they don't, they are not.
Precisely my point above. Again, just because world leaders aren't necessarily carrying out God's will, doesn't mean that they're not obligated to do so.
quote: 3) Whatever we make of God's use of governments, the issue of what God wants from the church is a different matter. The Church is called to follow Jesus Christ alone, and Jesus repeatedly refused to have any relationship with the government. Despite the fact that the single most pressing issue for the Jews of the day was what they should think of the governement, and despite their repeated attempts to pull Jesus into political issues -- indeed, make him a political messiah -- he resolutely refused. "My kingdom is not of this world."
Hmmm. Part of the reason, I think, for Jesus' non-involvement with the prevailing government of His time is because that government was Roman, and He was sent exclusively to Israel(Matthew 15:24).
And while the Kingdom He preached is not of this world-- it has its investiture in Heaven-- it seems pretty clear (IMHO) that this Kingdom would have been-- and one day will be-- established on earth.
But that is neither here nor there.
I once believed in co-opting the government. My views on this have relaxed some, but I believe that, in a participatory system such as the one we're blessed to be part of, it is our responsibility to do our part to see righteous men elected to office (see Proverbs 29:2).
Although I do agree that our main priority should be fighting the war!
Thanks again!
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Triskal Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 198 | Posted 7/10/2001 8:02 PM (GMT -6) |   | Doc, I agree with you in the sense that Christians should be first concerned with spiritual matters before we are concerned with government. However, we DO need to be active in our government. In case you haven't noticed, our entire country has been overtaken by an athiest mindset behind our very backs. The media is within it's grips, along with the majority of politicians and schools (even Christian ones). You can't go a day without getting some kind of secular humanist message shoved into your brain by some form of advertisement, article, movie or book. Organizations like the ACLU are constantly taking away our freedoms. If we are mainly concerned with the church and do not have enough concern with government, we may find that soon enough we may not even have a church to be concerned with. In his recent book "Mind Siege", Dr. Tim Lahaye describes a very haunting image of what our country could become in no less then 50 years if it keeps sliding downhill the way it has been in the last 10 years. Christians DO need to be involved in government, and to a very large degree. The notion that we can just sit back and let others do all the work while we stay busy with our potlucks and prayer meetings is a rather frightening idea.
In His Grip, Matt
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Glamdring Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 35 | Posted 7/11/2001 1:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Potlucks and prayer meetings!!??? oy no comment. g
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Tom Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 10353 | Posted 7/12/2001 2:44 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hi all-
A friend recently elsewhere posted some comments regarding the problem of evil. He notes Jesus’ parable of the wheat and the weeds. Here’s the text from Matt. 13:quote: 24 Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?' 28 He said to them, `An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, `Then do you want us to go and gather them?' 29 But he said, `No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"
Here’s the gist of his thought:
1) The farmer offered no explanation of why or how the enemy planted weeds in the field, just THAT it was the case.
2) The servants, being good farm hands (my friend is from such farmland), were right in suggesting that the weeds be dug up. They knew what weeds do to a crop when allowed to grow.
3) The farmer, who should have known better, said not to do anything about the weeds (i.e., sin and evil). They should wait until the harvest (i.e., final judgement). Meanwhile they were to “let” the wheat and weeds grow side by side. History is full of examples of the church going out on “weed-pulling crusades.” He suggests that the notion that we should “take authority over evil and actively oppose and destroy the work of the enemy by standing against the ‘weeds’” is misguided.
4) My friend also has a problem with “nonintervention,” or just doing nothing about evil. So…
5) He feels the only option is “to proclaim forgiveness.” In the parable, the farmer said, “‘Let’ them grow together.” He argues that “let” comes from the same root for “to forgive” as found in Jesus’ approach, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.” He says, “In other words, all we can really do as a witness of the good is to proclaim faithfully the Gospel of forgiveness” (2Cor. 5.18f). He closes, “I guess I'm saying that God hasn't called us individually, or the church en mass, to be warriors in the culture wars. He has instead made us Christ's ambassadors offering God's forgiveness and friendship to a people who don't deserve either.”
----------
I thought it was thought-provoking. I mean, what IS the point of the parable besides pointing to the fact that the “ultimate” separation of evil from God’s world will come in the eschatological end? What about now? Is he correct in understanding “Don’t pull the weeds up now. Let them grow together” to suggest that “confronting evil” head-on in this world is not the Church’s job?
Tom 
"The will to prepare to win is greater than the will to win." Bobby Knight | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Glamdring Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 35 | Posted 7/12/2001 5:45 PM (GMT -6) |   | If you pull weeds up out of the field they die. Perhaps God is saying that as the farmer he will not kill people as soon as they choose against him. However I think we could still pray against evil, and confront it. I don't think you kill weeds by bringing that fact that they are weeds to their attention.
just a thought g
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Triskal Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 198 | Posted 7/12/2001 5:54 PM (GMT -6) |   | Glamdring, lol I wasn't saying that potlucks and prayer meetings were bad in any way. I was just using them as an example of something we could use as an excuse to keep away from being involved in helping our country.
In His Grip, Matt
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Glamdring Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 35 | Posted 7/12/2001 6:17 PM (GMT -6) |   | Matt, Glad you are laughing. I loved the aliteration by the way.
It's just that potlucks are about eating and visiting (not there's anything wrong with that) but prayer meetings are for loosing the power of God! blessed be his name, (Ria) and we can more profoundly affect the political machinations of this nation from our knees than we can from the voting booth. Can I get an amen!
g
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Triskal Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 198 | Posted 7/12/2001 6:27 PM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 7/12/2001 7:04 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
prayer meetings are for loosing the power of God! blessed be his name, (Ria) and we can more profoundly affect the political machinations of this nation from our knees than we can from the voting booth. Can I get an amen!
g
Awwww ya Glammer Girl! AMEN.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Glamdring Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 35 | Posted 7/13/2001 6:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | Thanks guys!!
HEY CHANCE! any comments on this thread you started???
Edited by - glamdring on 07/13/2001 11:59:19 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Modes of Thought Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 817 | Posted 7/15/2001 5:26 AM (GMT -6) |   | Tom, that is thought provoking. Two thoughts: 1. Jesus didn't leave it at that, he went out and fought evil agressively, casting out demons, turning over tables, etc. and cmmanded the disciples to do likewise, down to instructing why some demons are hard to cast out... 2. I DO think that the strategy your friend suggests is a good one, and Lutheran too! We do not look for enemies in the PEOPLE around us, but rather in the spiritual world, our battle is not against flesh and blood, or even those who are controlled spiritually.
| | Back to Top | | |
 |  Mephi2K Registered Member
 Date Joined Jun 2001 Total Posts : 713 | Posted 7/15/2001 5:31 AM (GMT -6) |   | Dude, I am not even trying to be funny, but what is a "spirit"? I'm assuming the "spiritual realm" is made up of these "spirits", but what are they? Is it an essential thing? Immaterial, yet real? Enduring? What? Are angels and demons pure "spirit"? Do spirits house consciousness? I need some intelligibility here.
Sorry if all this is off-topic. But your question answer reminded me. By the way, anyone and everyone, go check out the movie FINAL FANTASY: THE SPIRITS WITHIN. http://www.finalfantasy.com The graphics are amazingly real. The storyline is great. And I'd really like to know about what people think about the spiritual overtones of the flick.

Edited by - Mephi2K on 07/15/2001 10:41:00 AM | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 7/15/2001 12:10 PM (GMT -6) |   | Mephi wants to know what are "spirits." We might say "they are non-physical beings." The trouble is, a) this is a definition by negation, and b) we don't even know what it negates, for we don't know what physical beings are!!!!
Mephi, was is "matter"? You say, perhaps, "manifested energy." Well and good, but what is that?
We simply have no clear conception of what 'substance" or "matter" is over and beyond what it does. So, on this score it seems "material beings" and "non-material beings" are on the same level.
As you probably know from reading Trinity and Process, I've very sympathetic to the Piercian / Process claim that the ultimate real thing can only be "feeling." But if we want to talk about that, lets start a different thread.
Later bro.
Doc
| | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 3:31 PM (GMT -6) There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads. In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3 dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|