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Mitten
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 8

Posted 11/18/2001 7:13 AM (GMT -6)

I had been following the Women, Homosexuality, and Slavery thread and I liked the good discussion. I also have been at Woodland Hills this last 3 weeks and see some of the same theme. I think I must break out of my hiding to say this one thing. I am not full of brains like some people here but instead I tell stories. That is why I like reading Semina.

All my life my mother has been a Christian and also a crack addict. She has always either gone to church or listened to sermons on the radio, so I have been raised hearing the gospel. this is the good part. The bad part is that my father and I have suffered much because of my mothers addiction. She has lied to us, stollen uncountable amounts of money from my father’s business and the list goes on and on. A month ago my father had to have bypass surgery and my mother took him in to surgery, while he was preparing for surgery she took of in his car and disappeared for 7 hours and also made $2,000 of my fathers money disappear. This is only the latest example. I do not feel superior to my mother because I have not been an addict. But I judge what she does to my father and I is wrong, even though I still love her and God is working to make me love her more.

I also have a girlfriend who used to be a roomate. We’re both Christians. While we were roomates we would go out to the bars every once in a while to dance and socialize. She would take it lots more seriously than I. personally, my line is that I do not bring the guy home with me and I do not get drunk. One night my roomate and I were at out dancing and we both had a guy hot on our trail. Somehow she ended up in a corner of the dance floor making out with her guy. My guy was more than willing to do the same. In the middle of all that a warning bell when off in my head and I decided I better get out of here before I cross my own line. I left immediately and took the bus home. I was confused by roomate’s behavior because we were supposed to be helping each other out so that we don’t do anything stupid. But within two weeks of the incident, she was sleeping with this guy and viciously accusing me of judging her. I had not yet told her how I felt because I was still thinking about how I should talk to her without judging her. I was very hurt but I ended up apologizing for judging in my heart and she now lives with another boyfriend.

But now I wonder if what I did was wrong in accepting blame. If we would have talked about her behavior, maybe she could have been saved from her bad decision, but we didn't because we were talking about my sin of judgement. If I’d have never judged my mother and roomates actions to be less than good, or God forbid SIN. Then the truth of the matter is I’d be doing the same things they are doing. I love them both very much and for this reason I want to give them tough love. Love that is not afraid to say you are making the wrong decisions for yourself. I would also like to love myself enough to not do the things that harm me, that are sin. but then I sin anyway because I am judging. Would it be better if I just sinned the sins of my mother or my girlfriend. I’d have a lot more fun and then I wouldn’t be doing the worst sin of all, which is judging. I am just trying to live right and having a hard time to do it. Now I cannot even say in my heart—what that person does is sin. And if my thoughts cannot make that distinction (in love) then my actions will soon match theirs.

This is why I have had a very hard time to listen to the sermons in the last 3 weeks. How do I make sense of the command to not judge in my life. If I did not judge my mother’s behavior to be bad, we would not continue to try to put her in treatment programs. If I cannot say in my heart what my roomate does is wrong, I cannot help save her from her own bad decisions. And I also cannot call other sinners to repentance.

Please understand I am not making trouble here. I am asking real questions.

Mitten

n/a
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218

Posted 11/18/2001 11:22 AM (GMT -6)

here are some scriptures (this seems to fit your dillema) I really can't see how you would be judging someone by telling them they are in sin.
Mathhew 5:23-24; 6:14-15; 18:15-20
Luke 17:3-4
Romans 14:1-15:7
1 Corinthians 5:11
2 Corinthians 6:3; 11:29
Galatians 6:1-2
Ephesians 4:25-27, 29-32
2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15
Titus 3:10-11
1 John 1:7
Hope this helps

God Bless
P.S Some of these verses might not pertain to your situation, but I left them up anyways (check out Luke 17:3-4).
P.P.S Judging and rebuking are two different things. I think the reason judging is wrong is that it is building up yourself and not others, in your case pointing out error to others is permissable because you are looking for the well being of the person and not yourself.

Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else's scrutiny.1Corinthians2:14j

Edited by - faithfullservent on 11/18/2001 4:32:49 PM

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 11/18/2001 11:45 AM (GMT -6)

Mitten,
I only have a few minutes before I serve up dinner, but I wanted to respond a bit cause I can feel your heart in this one. Does anyone remember the title of the thread that talks about judging? It's more profound than what I can put down, but here goes.

It's one thing to 'judge right from wrong' and another to 'stand in judgment' against someone. Like that old saying, hate the sin and not the sinner. I think that is what you are doing with your mother.

quote:

I do not feel superior to my mother because I have not been an addict. But I judge what she does to my father and I is wrong, even though I still love her and God is working to make me love her more.

You still love your mother, even in her sin. You love others that sin because you recognize you are a sinner. You are saying, "there but for the grace of God go I." We are not called to judge the world but we are called to speak the truth in love to one another, our brothers and sisters in Christ, and sometimes that is about confronting them with their sin, but it is always done out of a concern for them, not from a heart of condemnation.

The judging that Christ forbids is the kind where you think you are better than someone and you say "Raca" You Fool! or perhaps, Jane your ignorant slut.

quote:

I had not yet told her how I felt because I was still thinking about how I should talk to her without judging her.

I was very hurt but I ended up apologizing for judging in my heart...But now I wonder if what I did was wrong in accepting blame.

I think the most important thing is that you are able to express yourself to her. If you have not judged her in your heart you can say, "I don't think it's right what you did, but I still love you. I don't think you are any more sinful than I am."

If you have judged her and already apologized, you should be done, and then you can just try to reconcile.

If it feels like unfinished business it most likely is. Is there a part of you that feels let down or betrayed by her? It seems to me that that would be a whole different issue than whether she sinned againt God or not. If she hurt you for what ever reason, you need to explain that part to her and let her know that you want to forgive her for that.

I'm sorry I don't have more time,
hope this wasn't too scattered.

Springs

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/18/2001 12:59 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Springs: Does anyone remember the title of the thread that talks about judging?

I am wondering if the thread you are thinking about it the "Women, Homosexuality, and Slavery" thread?

quote:
Mitten: This is why I have had a very hard time to listen to the sermons in the last 3 weeks. How do I make sense of the command to not judge in my life.

Ah! We ought to start a club titled "walking the fine line in Christianity" It is sometimes SO difficult to discern where our input is appropriate and where it is uninvited and becomes judgmental.

I think it's okay to give our opinion to someone IF they ask for it. To answer someone's request definitely would not be judging BUT to freely give our feedback without being invited to do so would be. I think if we tread where we are not welcome we will most likely not be received and heard anyway.

Now, on the other hand, if someone's behavior is causing us to be victimized than it IS definitely our place to speak up. It seems that your mother's behavior is hurting and trespassing on more than just herself. In this case to speak up and try to intervene seems the appropriate response.

From one who TRIES to look at the specks of the world with logs in both of my eyes. UGH!
trosie

Mitten
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 8

Posted 11/19/2001 4:49 AM (GMT -6)

The Galatians 6 passage is the one I have been taking to heart as I think hard about my situation and the command to not judge. Thanks for the versus faithfull. Like Trosie said it is a fine line and as I have learned not everyone agrees with you when you make a judement about where that line is. One thing for Trosie though. You said the opinion or judgement has to be invited first and then I am able to tell my friend what she is doing is wrong. That's just the trouble I have. Everybody thinks that. But when I go to the Bible, I don't see anyone inviting judgement. The money changers at the temple did not ask Jesus opinion before he gave it and chased them out. Also Nathan came to King David and told him his sin, uninvited. Same thing with Elijah when he went to Ahab and said a judgement to him about stealing Naboh's vineyard.

Thank you for your distinctions Springs. What you said sounds exactly right. I think it is easy to get mixed up when we say we cannot make a judgement about what is right and wrong. Some people take that to mean like a blanket statement for everything. They forget about the difference you made between thinking you are better than someone and really caring for someone. That's what I forgot and then I had problems. With my friend, I still love her and always have, even when she was making bad decisions for herself. It just felt like she was asking me to approve of her behavior and I couldn't and then I was judgemental. This is why I like that Galatians says to be careful to not sin yourself.

Thank you everybody for your nice answers.

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/19/2001 8:25 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
The money changers at the temple did not ask Jesus opinion before he gave it and chased them out.

I just want to make a quick clarification. I believe in the cases you cited, as the one above, these people were causing harm to another or as in the case above to God's holy temple. Jesus' anger was directed at the fact that the money changers were trespassing on Holy Ground and violating God (so to speak)

I think we need to speak up when someone's behavior or sin DIRECTLY effects us.
trosie

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 11/19/2001 10:43 AM (GMT -6)

Mitten, thanks for coming out of hiding. Your own life dilemas raises the issue of the "fine line" that Springs and Trosie mentioned. In the case of both your mother and your friend, you have a relationship which warrants what Semeia calls a 'stop action.' You know them and they know you. Your lives are intertwined. They know your motivation is love, not self-righteousness. Hence, in both cases you have been implicitly if not explicitly invited in to their "house," and they into yours. Your desire to free your mom from her addiction and to stop your friend from ungoddly, harmful behavior is not judging, as Jesus uses the concept. It is love.

As I understand it, a judgement , in the sense in which Jesus and Paul and James forbid it, is a downward gaze that serves not to help and heal, but to feed an ego with a sense of superiority.

Great questions, and thanks for sharing your stories.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

chance
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157

Posted 11/19/2001 11:37 AM (GMT -6)

Mitten

Where did you get the idea that judging was in any way wrong? To not judge between right and wrong is evil, not the other way around. To not let a friend or loved one know that God and you do not approve of their wrong behavior is only harmful. Judge Rightly is not some guys name.

Your mom should be given an ultimatum: She can either have her family OR she can have her crack. She can't have both. Her taking advantage of your dad while he was incapacitated due to surgery should be the last straw. Give your mom the ultimatum now or expect much more suffering and pain from her in the future. If she is not committed to getting off of crack then she cannot be a good parent. She must decide whether she wants to be a good parent or a crack addict. Giving her this ultimatum is the most loving thing you can do.

I suggest not accociating with your former roommate friend who has decided to shack up with multiple guys. Let her know that you cannot associate with someone who claims to follow Christ and at the same time fornicates as though there were no God (1 Cor 5:9-11). Pray that she will come to her senses and repent of her fornication so that you can be friends again. All of her Christian friends should also not associate with her while she is committing sexual immorality.

Also, I am a bit perplexed as to why you and your friends would even go to bars at all since the people who socialize there do so because they are looking to get a buzz from alcohol and for one night stands (made easier by the consumption of alcohol). Yes, I am judging your apparent lack of discernment. If someone wants to argue that Christians should socialize at bars filled with people looking for sex go ahead. I judge that such a place is not acceptable for Christians to socialize (1 Cor 6:18; 1 Thess 4:3).

I will pray for your mom and your friend and for you and your family.

chance

A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 11/19/2001 1:36 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Mitten,

Springs, Trosie and Greg have covered much of what I would have said. I appreciate your honesty in talking about these very personal situations. I'm so glad to hear that you still love your mother in spite of the pain she has caused you. I encourage you to seek out counseling or an organization like Al Anon (I think that's the sister organization of AA that is for relatives of alcoholics). I don't know if there is a specific organization for relatives of crack addicts, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is. If you cannot find anything like that let me know--I'm sure I could find an organization that could help you. Email me at the address in my profile if you need that. Even if your mother is not willing to seek treatment herself, that is no reason for you to wait to get help for the damage that has been done to you. Perhaps your father would be willing to come with you. But even if he is not, you can take positive steps on your own. Forgive me if I am telling you something you have already done.

Please be careful with the kind of advice that Chance is giving you. No one outside of your situation who is not privy to the details of your life can know for certain whether or not an ultimatum is the best course of action. That is why you would seek professional help, so you can get the advice of someone who has been trained to help drug addicts and their families, and who has the experience to know what usually works and what does not. Besides, if you give an ultimatum separate from your father, and he chooses to support your mother and not you, you may have only succeeded in separating yourself from your family. In the end it may turn out that an intervention is needed, but that requires the agreement and cooperation of family and friends who have been negatively impacted by your mother's addiction. Not everyone is willing to take such a step, but I hope and pray that your family will find its way toward a more positive life. Perhaps with your mother's Christian faith she will be more open to feedback about the effect that her drug habit is having on you.

But one thing I have found to be true: people are much more able to hear pain than anger. If you can show your mom the deep sadness you feel over what goes on in your family, she is much more likely to be able to hear it and respond than if you show anger and blame. That is simply human nature. But it is no guarantee. Even your sadness may be too painful for her to acknowledge and accept. Do you have people in your life who know of your situation and are supportive of you? It is so important to have people who know and understand and support you in your struggles.

With both your roommate and your mother it is most effective to stick with the impact that their behavior is having on you. I've just never experienced anyone making positive changes based on people calling their behavior "wrong" or "sinful"--if that worked the world would look a lot different, because there is no shortage of that kind of judgment. But tell your roommate that it's no fun hanging out with someone who's going to ditch you when they find a guy. Tough love is not about judgment. Tough love is about having the strength to give honest feedback to people you love about how their behavior is harming you. But it is not really your job to prevent them from harming themselves. Unfortunately, none of us have even an ounce of power to prevent someone we love from harming themselves. That is one of the most painful parts of being alive, that realization that we cannot prevent another person's self-destruction. But your honesty about how they are affecting you may eventually impact them enough to slow down their downward spiral. In any case it's all the power you have.

As far as Chance's judgments about you going to bars, that's all it is: judgment. Jesus turned the water into wine, and if it were only about getting drunk and having sex I think he would have picked a different miracle. It sounds to me that you are very clear about not picking up guys. It sounds to me that you have strong values and are trying to make the right decisions. It sounds to me like you have a good head on your shoulders even though you have had considerable hardship in your life, having a mother who suffers from a terrible addiction. I applaud your efforts to make the right decisions in your life even as the people around you are not. I admire your ability to love people who have let you down.

If you need to separate from these people in order to protect yourself--to keep yourself from being harmed--then by all means separate yourself. But if you would be disassociating from them only as a judgment--as Chance is recommending--because they are "immoral", then I think that would be destructive. You may be one of the most positive influences in their lives. You may be able to set a beautiful example of what it means to live in the fullness of Christ's love, to be able to love those around you who are less than perfect, as God loves each of us, who are also less than perfect.

But I do hope if you haven't sought help for yourself concerning your mother's addiction that you will. Addiction reaches its tentacles around every member of a family, and no matter how far you travel to get away it finds you where you are and will not let you go until it is dealt with. Having a parent who is addicted puts you at much higher risk of marrying someone who has addiction problems. As inconceivable as that might seem to you now, I urge you to consider the codependency issues that invariably affect the family of an addict. Addiction is contagious in the sense that it harms everyone in a family, not just the addict. I so apologize if this sounds preachy. I say all of this because I hear in your post so much loving concern for others, but I worry about the help that you yourself may need to get through this. Please tell me if I have said this wrong.

Let me know if this has been helpful, or if I could have said it better. Let me know if there is a specific way I could help connect you to a helping organization. I highly recommend the authors Harville Hendrix and John Bradshaw on the subject of healing wounds from childhood, especially in situations of addiction.

I hope this helps,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/19/2001 5:23 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Mitten:
I appreciate your questions because they are helping me to also process this whole area in more depth.

It is my hope and prayer that God will help you find the "FINE LINE" for yourself in this issue so that you will not have such a hard time listening to such sermons. I want to assure you that you were NOT alone in your uncomfortableness. I heard many people talk about this afterward and many felt convicted in some area...

Here are some of my reflections on this topic so far:

quote:
Semeia said: I say all of this because I hear in your post so much loving concern for others, but I worry about the help that you yourself may need to get through this

God taught us to love ourselves AS MUCH as we love others, and I am wondering if this might not be part of the reason Jesus instructed us to first look at the log in our own eyes? Maybe the reason we need to take care of ourselves FIRST (look at the log in our own eyes) is so that we can be filled so much with the mind of God that we can enter the Fruit of the Spirit when addressing others? I agree with Semeia that if you haven't yet done so, seeking support is crucial for YOU regarding your mom's addiction.

quote:
Doc said:They know your motivation is love, not self-righteousness. Hence, in both cases you have been implicitly if not explicitly invited in to their "house," and they into yours

I want to inject the word "IF" into the above sentence. IF is the key word in the sentence. IF THEY KNOW your motivation is TOTALLY out of love, and NOT self-righteousness... Because even when we are in intimate relationships the intention of our bringing something to another is NOT always out of our love for them.

The bottom line that I see after reflecting on this is that since we are to "love our neighbor as ourselves," the loving thing to do is to be honest and speak truth into their situations WHEN they have invited us to do so (if their sin is ONLY harming them) -OR- ABSOLUTELY address it when their sin is causing pain or harm to us.

I think we need to discern who their sin is effecting. If we are assured of our intention for addressing the issue then I believe it is imperative that we seek the mind of Christ when discussing our concerns and convictions. God's love for us, in us, and through us to others can be our compass in discerning how and when to give our input.

Thanks for sharing this because it has helped me to reflect upon this more as well

trosie

Edited by - trosie on 11/19/2001 10:48:44 PM

Mitten
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 8

Posted 11/20/2001 3:51 AM (GMT -6)

Oh, boy! I am overwhelmed. You all are too much for me.

First off, my mom has been given this ultimatum many times. I would stick to it except that she comes to my dad's house at 2'clock AM in the middle of the winter without a coat or some other such story. Then they are so co-dependant. I cannot make my father turn her away. My mom thinks she is like Hosea's wife and my father is Hosea. And yes I have been going to al anon for the past 4 years because my mother is an alcoholic too. She has been through 6 different treatment programs up to date and counseling. Nothing speaks louder than crack. Not even a daughter's pain. Thank you chance for prayers. For your information my girlfriend's name is Amanda. I do not say all this for your pitty, I just wanted to give a real situation to see what is judgement and what is not, since the topic is so big here and at church too.

I don't live my life as if it were all about me. Like the song we sang in Sunday school when I was little, "Jesus first, yourself last and others in between." It sounds to me like some people are saying what choices I make and when I hold people accountable is centered around me. I'm sorry to say that it doesn't feel right that way. Sin hurts somebody eventualy.

Thank you Semeina for your trust that I have good judgement. And I have lots of help with my mom. I would not share so much if I didn't. I like what Greg says. It's like when the Pharasee prays to God in the temple and says. Thank you God that I am not like this publican.

Is Chance judging me for going to bars? Is he now superior Christian compared to me? Is Semeina judging Chance for judging me? Okay I better stop. This is going around in circles for me. Please don't be mad at me for saying that, this is just the confusion I get in everywhere.

Thank you everybody.
Love

Mitten

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 11/20/2001 4:33 AM (GMT -6)

Hi Mitten,

I'm glad to hear that you're hooked up with al-anon. I'm sorry that your mom has tried so many treatment programs without success. I read once that crack was more addictive than heroin, and with heroin there is at least the option of managing the addiction with methadone.

By the way, focusing on what you can change, the sin in yourself, is not at all living life as if it is all about you. It is simply putting the focus where Jesus asks us to put the focus. Aligning our own lives with Christ is the only hope we have of helping others, anyway.

I certainly meant no judgment of Chance. I said nothing about him personally at all. I simply pointed out that his judgments of you and your mom and your friend were not helpful. His judgments are quite the opposite of what Jesus preaches in the Sermon on the Mount. I reject Chance's view, but I have said nothing at all about Chance.

I don't think your questions make anyone mad--certainly not me. This issue of judgment can feel very confusing. I hope you keep wrestling with it, though. It was one of the core issues for Jesus--He spoke of it again and again.

I'm sorry for my part in overwhelming you! I hope this doesn't make it worse...

Take care,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/20/2001 9:19 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Mitten: It sounds to me like some people are saying what choices I make and when I hold people accountable is centered around me. I'm sorry to say that it doesn't feel right that way. Sin hurts somebody eventualy

I DON'T think that life should be centered on us AT ALL. NO, I think our lives as Christians need to be focused upward to God.
My point is that when trying to discern if we are being judgmental a good rule of thumb is to first have our hearts and minds in alignment to God's mind and heart before making a decision to confront.

If the sin is not effecting us, and the person is not open to receiving our words, THEN we WILL come off judgmental thus will not be effective. I believe unwelcomed judgment is what turns many non-believers off to Christianity. This is also what causes many wounds within the body between one believers.

I find that when I keep my focus upward, and not inward or outward, I have the most peace and contentment. Through focusing on Christ, and being filled with the Holy Spirit, I am able to love both myself and others with more of God's love. When I keep my mind on things above (focused above) I am more apt to be speaking out because of genuine love and concern. I believe this will be perceived by the recipient.

trosie

Edited by - trosie on 11/20/2001 2:20:46 PM

chance
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157

Posted 11/21/2001 4:11 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia said

quote:
I certainly meant no judgment of Chance. I said nothing about him personally at all. I simply pointed out that his judgments of you and your mom and your friend were not helpful. His judgments are quite the opposite of what Jesus preaches in the Sermon on the Mount. I reject Chance's view, but I have said nothing at all about Chance.

I'm not sure what Christ's teaching about how to live during the tribulation that His disciples were about to go through has anything to do with what Mitten is talking about. I don't know anyone who teaches that we should follow all of the guidelines given in the Sermon on the Mount during the present economy. I definitely wouldn't recommend it. And no, the Sermon on the Mount is not the gospel and neither is Matt 25

I am not sure how it can be said that you reject my view but not me. How do you separate someone's view from them if their view comes from them? The inability to make such a separation is one of the reasons why I reject the cliche "Hate the sin, love the sinner". If that false cliche were true then God would just take the sin of every person and cast it into Hell and let everyone into Heaven. God has not given the impression that He will do this, so I don't think that such a thing is possible.

It is the sinner that I hate because the sin came from the sinner's heart (Matt 15:3-4,18-19). It is possible to love and hate a person at the same time. I do not want someone to love anything evil within me and that is one reason why I welcome judgment.

I have been judged by Semeia as giving bad advice to Mitten, but Semeia is reluctant to admit that she has judged me because she has this idea that judging is wrong. But judging is not wrong and if the advice I have given is rightfully judged as being bad advice then that judgment should be expressed.

I may not have enough info to say what should be done with Mitten's mom, but I still say that Christians should not socialize in bars and I believe my judgment is based upon Scripture.

quote:
1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people [that's what bars are filled with].

1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits."

Do you think my judgment is wrong?

chance

A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 11/22/2001 2:27 PM (GMT -6)

Something inside of me says "stay away!"

Well....my favorite Cosby show scene is of Cosby holding his hands back, gesturing a wide birth from anything having to do with Women.

Chance Beware! Let it be.

Chance: Do you think my judgment is wrong?

to a pedestrian walker-by it seems like:

"Many hands lighten the load."
"A chord of three strands is not easily broken."
"Brothers sharpen brother, as the sparks fly upward."

(This last two are from proverbs. I think the last one; and quoted by Charles Schultz in Peanuts.)

Take a load off Chance.

(PoW is holding his hands back in a Cosby-esque fashion)

No analysis of such a freely developing discussion is going to be as neat as using a ruler, or as easy to edit as a Word document. Besides, women are going to know some things that you and I don't. And it even took two women (the equivalent of fourty men) to cover the bases! Semeia was being considerate of both Mitten, AND you, AND trying to accomplish something, AND being circumspect. That is a lot at one time! Let is pass.

BTW -- This Dispensational business is so unfamiliar to me. I wonder haw many people understood what you had said about: "during the present economy"" and "the Sermon on the Mount is not the gospel and neither is Matt 25"" and "how to live during the tribulation"". Can you give it a kind of preamble, to warn passersby that it is D-speak? There are many, many, of those of us on this board are not Dispensationalist. And those of us who are NOT happen to have feeling about he Sermon on the Mount that you may not share. (I bought a book for my brother-in-law the missionary to Africa, India, Germany, Ukraine and Siberia written by J. Pelikan containing sermons on the Sermon on the Mount by Luther, Augustin and Chrysostom. Great book.) Those of us non-D will be considerate. but this voice announces that we get to hold to our own tradition and understanding too!

(Now, if this all is not dispensationalisms, then I am just as lost, or more so.)

PoW

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 11/22/2001 8:25:43 PM

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 11/22/2001 8:54 PM (GMT -6)

From one perspective the difference between the “good” kind of judgement and the “bad” kind of judgement is very simple and clear:

“Bad” Judgement = Accusation, Condemnation. Another word for this is Attack.

Satan (ha-satan) literally means “the accuser”. When we do the “bad” judgement we are Satan (ha-satan – the accuser). I think this is very clear and knowable to us when we choose to be aware of it. We all know what it feels like to accuse and condemn someone. We all know what it feels like when we are attacking someone – although we all quickly deny that that was our intent when challenged. And we all do this constantly. The problem of us judging good and evil is the very essence of our “fallenness”. It is the very essence of our sinfulness. It is so pervasive that we are almost completely unaware of it and when challenged we feel we must defend this. We are slaves to sin.

“Good” Judgement = direct loving helpful action.

Jesus came not to judge the world but to save it. Jesus came not to accuse / condemn the world but to save it by taking direct loving helpful action. Which he in turn asks us to do also – take up my cross, lay down your life for your brother. I think it is very clear and knowable to us when we choose to do this. We all know what it feels like to be concerned about someone and to be wracking our brain trying to figure out what action we can take that would be helpful.

This is the perspective of “Intent”. From the perspective of what our Intent is we all know (or at least can choose to know) when we are Attacking and when we are seeking to be Helpful.

It all starts getting very confusing however when we look at the other two perspectives in the Intent->Behavior->Impact model.

Intent->Behavior->Impact Model: Person A has an intent toward person B. From that intent person A acts out some behavior toward person B. Person B experiences an impact from person A’s behavior. The impact that person B experiences may or may not be the impact that person A intended. Often times it is not and often times we are completely unaware of this.

How many times have we all experienced a kind word or deed being perceived negatively; being perceived as an attack.

From the perspective of Impact “Good” and “Bad” Judgement can be very confusing. The action that we think may be most powerful in helping someone may be perceived by them to be a brutal and outright attack. To the extent that it is perceived this way – is it helpful? If not – is it then this “Bad” kind of Judgement? How about a chart:

Impact: Attack

Impact: Helpful

Intent: Attack

Bad for us

Bad for them

Bad for us

Good for them

Intent: Helpful

Good for us

Bad for them

Good for us

Good for them

If our intent is to attack and condemn that is bad for us; it leads to our death. Jesus said that it would be OK to do what the Pharisees said – just don’t be like them: condemning and attacking others. If our intent is to be helpful that is good for us; it leads to life. Saul had a good intent in killing Christians. Jesus converted him in about 2 seconds flat once he showed him that the impact he was having was the opposite of his intent: to be God’s servant.

A helpful intent may have a positive or negative impact on the other person. Oddly enough an attacking intent also may have a positive or negative impact on the other person – although one would certainly expect that a negative intent is more likely to have a negative impact.

Clearly the sweet spot is quadrant 4 here: Helpful Intent, Helpful Impact. Since we know that Jesus came NOT to condemn the world but to save it and since we also know that Jesus never sinned and was part of the triune God then I would argue that he always operated in quadrant 4. His intention was always to be helpful and his impact was always as helpful as could possibly be given the nature of free will so clearly laid out in “Satan and the Problem of Evil” by Doc.

So what did that look like?

1. He healed the sick, he spent time with prostitutes, tax collectors and so on. He did not condemn the woman caught in adultery. He went around forgiving people’s sins.
2. He brutally attacked and condemned the Pharisees for their judgement. He called them vipers and hypocrites. (Viper – Serpent – Satan – ha-satan – the accuser – the condemner – the attacker)

This is a really stark contrast. He seemed to go after the “good” people - the ones best at following the rules - the ones going to synagogue all the time - the religious leaders. The Pharisees did not recognize Jesus. They could only see him through the eyes of judgement – is he good or bad? He must be bad because he is hanging out with prostitutes and tax collectors. He must be bad because he healed on the Sabbath. He must be casting out demons by the power of beelzebub. Right after they say this Jesus talks about the unforgivable sin – blasphemy of the holy spirit – what can this mean except that once we see pure Love and judge it as evil how can we ever see Love again? Love comes to town and they can only see Him as evil because they are so far gone in their judgement. This is the worst thing that can happen to us.

thanks,
Iconoclast

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 11/22/2001 9:56 PM (GMT -6)

Mitten:

But now I wonder if what I did was wrong in accepting blame. If we would have talked about her behavior, maybe she could have been saved from her bad decision, but we didn't because we were talking about my sin of judgement. If I’d have never judged my mother and roomates actions to be less than good, or God forbid SIN. Then the truth of the matter is I’d be doing the same things they are doing. I love them both very much and for this reason I want to give them tough love. Love that is not afraid to say you are making the wrong decisions for yourself. I would also like to love myself enough to not do the things that harm me, that are sin. but then I sin anyway because I am judging. Would it be better if I just sinned the sins of my mother or my girlfriend. I’d have a lot more fun and then I wouldn’t be doing the worst sin of all, which is judging. I am just trying to live right and having a hard time to do it. Now I cannot even say in my heart—what that person does is sin. And if my thoughts cannot make that distinction (in love) then my actions will soon match theirs.

Iconoclast:

The word sin comes from the greek word hamartia. It is an archery term which literally means that the arrow did not hit the target - it missed the mark.

If you were watching someone shooting an arrow at a target and could see that they were doing something again and again that caused them to miss the target and they were unaware of it what would you do? Would you tell them? How would you tell them? Would you say: "ya know it is really wrong of you to be squinching up your forehead everytime you release the shaft - you really ought not to do that." Or would it be a nonchalant - oh by the way I noticed that everytime you release the shaft you squinch up your forehead?

Is it judging to know that squinching up the forehead when releasing the shaft causes the arrow to miss the mark? Is it judging to notice someone doing this and attribute this "sin" to them? Once you knew this "sin" would you do it on purpose in order to miss the target?

If you told the person and they heard your feedback in the spirit it was intended but then didn't implement any changes how would you feel?

If they reacted defensively and rejected your "advice" and said you were being judgemental and it was none of your business how would you feel?

I think the worst sin is making the mistake of attacking ourselves and others for making mistakes or rather - sinning. I think this "bad" judgement is not the attributing of sin to someone nor is it providing that feedback - but rather it is when we add a powerful negative emotion and then go on the attack.

thanks,
Iconoclast

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 11/23/2001 4:48 AM (GMT -6)

Iconoclast said:

quote:
I think the worst sin is making the mistake of attacking ourselves and others for making mistakes or rather - sinning. I think this "bad" judgement is not the attributing of sin to someone nor is it providing that feedback - but rather it is when we add a powerful negative emotion and then go on the attack.

Semeia: The only thing I would add here is that the word "sin" in our culture is perceived as a judgment and an attack. I do not believe that in our culture we can attribute the word "sin" to someone's behavior and NOT have it be perceived as an attack. So if we are aiming for a loving impact I think we need to find loving language less charged with judgment. The only exception to this in Jesus behavior was his reaction to the Pharisees, and the moneychangers. It seems that when someone masquerades as having "good" intent, but their actions are having obvious evil impact, then something more is called for. The moneychangers were using the cover of God's temple to swindle people--a wolf in sheep's clothing. The Pharisees were on the surface the "good" churchgoing, rule-following, people, but in fact they were actively harming people with their focus on judgment, which led to their inability to even recognize the goodness of Jesus. The problem with the Pharisees is that their whole focus was on judgment of good and evil, rather than on how we go about loving each other. They were the ultimate wolf in sheep's clothing. Jesus' tactics with them were different from his tactics with ordinary sinners like prostitutes and tax-collectors, the most reviled people of the day. Jesus did shocking acts of defiance against the Pharisees. He purposely broke the Sabbath commandment to make a point. Jesus tells us who the really dangerous people are: the ones who focus on judgment and tell us how we should judge ourselves and others.

Who should we believe: Jesus who tells us we are loved and worthy to be saved, of infinite worth to the father?

Or the Pharisees, who judge Jesus for hanging out with immoral types like prostitutes and tax collectors, and who ask us to judge ourselves and others like they judge, and therefore become like them?

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/23/2001 6:20 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Iconoclast:I think the worst sin is making the mistake of attacking ourselves and others for making mistakes or rather - sinning. I think this "bad" judgement is not the attributing of sin to someone nor is it providing that feedback - but rather it is when we add a powerful negative emotion and then go on the attack.

AMEN! Going on the attack with a NEGATIVE EMOTION I believe is how the walls get built up and the communication breaks down. As soon as the wall goes up our words will NOT be heard.

quote:
Semeia: Who should we believe: Jesus who tells us we are loved and worthy to be saved, of infinite worth to the father?

Or the Pharisees, who judge Jesus for hanging out with immoral types like prostitutes and tax collectors, and who ask us to judge ourselves and others like they judge, and therefore become like them?

I just realized something!!! Those who "thought" they had it all together and who "thought" they were the righteous ones didn't even recognize the Son of Man while he walked amongst them! THINK OF THAT!

I guess the Pharisees didn't have it "all together" as they had externally "tried" to portray!

trosie

Edited by - trosie on 11/23/2001 11:21:46 AM

Edited by - trosie on 11/23/2001 11:22:27 AM

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 11/23/2001 10:52 AM (GMT -6)

Adiaphora, if you're listening to this thread: I was wondering how to transfer a table to a post without getting that big space in front of it. Iconoclast put out a nice table on the bottom of the last page by copying it over in html format, but it left a big space. The same thing happened to me on the threeness thread. It seems to be the way the board converts it, not anything in the html. Do you know how to avoid that? Otherwise it's such a nice table! Iconoclast and I LOVE tables.

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 11/23/2001 3:39 PM (GMT -6)

Chance: How do you separate someone's view from them if their view comes from them?

Doc: Chance, its this assumption that leads people to attack open theists on a personal level, with passion and vehemence, rather than discuss their views in a calm, rational, at least semi-objective manner. Don;t YOU expect people to distinguish YOU from YOUR views? Conversely, doesn't it bother you when people get defensive when you question their views? Its because they assume that in attacking their views, you're attacking THEM.

Chance: The inability to make such a separation is one of the reasons why I reject the cliche "Hate the sin, love the sinner". If that false cliche were true then God would just take the sin of every person and cast it into Hell and let everyone into Heaven.

Doc: That is exactly what God would love to do, and will do to all who will simply let him. The one thing that God won't do is turn you into a robot to allow him to do this.

Chance: It is the sinner that I hate because the sin came from the sinner's heart (Matt 15:3-4,18-19).

Doc: This is so very sad. You have to hate yourself and everyone else.

Chance: It is possible to love and hate a person at the same time. I do not want someone to love anything evil within me and that is one reason why I welcome judgment.

Doc: But Chance, don't you want people -- and God -- to love YOU despite your sin? If you are identified as much with your sin as you are with your non-sin, then you can never experience, or give, UNCONDITIONAL love. And THAT is the only love worth having. I really hope you seriously reconsider this stance of yours Chance.

Chance, I'm tellig you: There IS A LOVE that is pure, perfect, and unconditional. And you can receive it -- despite your sin. And when you recieve it thoroughly -- to the point where it defines you to the core of your being -- you can give it. And then you are free.

Your friend,

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

chance
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157

Posted 11/23/2001 7:01 PM (GMT -6)

Doc said

quote:
Doc: Chance, its this assumption that leads people to attack open theists on a personal level, with passion and vehemence, rather than discuss their views in a calm, rational, at least semi-objective manner. Don;t YOU expect people to distinguish YOU from YOUR views? Conversely, doesn't it bother you when people get defensive when you question their views? Its because they assume that in attacking their views, you're attacking THEM.

I don't think that is THE reason others attack those who hold the open view on a personal level. I believe the main reason is an exalted view of their own importance (I must defend "the truth") and after that their fear that they may have been promoting a view that was false for decades. They will not let some young theologians and professors modify "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." Because they want to defend the classical view so earnestly they will stoop to whatever level necessary to get an advantage over us, including personal attacks.

Also, decades from now the view that you espouse may be refered to by your name. Perhaps it will be known as the Boydian view. Calvin's view is known as Calvinism, Molina's view is known as Molinism. Over time the view or views that a person holds become more and more associated with the person. The reason is because the person chooses to hold and continues to hold those views just as a person chooses to either sin or to do good. Those who murder are refered to as murderers, those who commit adultery as adulterers, etc.

To answer your question, NO, I don't expect people to distinguish me from my views. I am pro-life. I am against murdering babies. Please do not separate this view from me ever.

quote:
Chance: The inability to make such a separation is one of the reasons why I reject the cliche "Hate the sin, love the sinner". If that false cliche were true then God would just take the sin of every person and cast it into Hell and let everyone into Heaven.

Doc: That is exactly what God would love to do, and will do to all who will simply let him. The one thing that God won't do is turn you into a robot to allow him to do this.

Great! So we agree that God will not just unconditionally separate everyone's sin from them. We must consent to God doing this, which He does by making us holy through the Holy Spirit.

quote:
Chance: It is the sinner that I hate because the sin came from the sinner's heart (Matt 15:3-4,18-19).

Doc: This is so very sad. You have to hate yourself and everyone else.

C'mon Doc! Don't we all hate ourselves to some extent because of our sinfulness? Should we be ambivalent towards our sinfullness or worse yet love it? Not at all! That's why we do things like TNT to help rid ourselves of the sin in our lives, right? Yes, I hate the sin that is within me. Do you?

quote:
Chance: It is possible to love and hate a person at the same time. I do not want someone to love anything evil within me and that is one reason why I welcome judgment.

Doc: But Chance, don't you want people -- and God -- to love YOU despite your sin? If you are identified as much with your sin as you are with your non-sin, then you can never experience, or give, UNCONDITIONAL love. And THAT is the only love worth having. I really hope you seriously reconsider this stance of yours Chance.

Yes, I want people to love me in spite of my sin. God can help us to do this. I doubt that there is any such thing as unconditional love. I don't see the cross as affirming that God's love for us is unconditional. I believe it is conditional ultimately upon our repentance and trust in Him. There is "common grace" which may be considered as unconditional love I suppose, but that will end one day when God does away with evil and throws the ungodly into the lake of fire.

quote:
Chance, I'm tellig you: There IS A LOVE that is pure, perfect, and unconditional. And you can receive it -- despite your sin. And when you recieve it thoroughly -- to the point where it defines you to the core of your being -- you can give it. And then you are free.

I too believe that there is such a love, but I wouldn't call it unconditional. When I love those girls going into Planned Barrenhood to murder their babies I see it in action, but I believe that the potential for them to reciprocate God's love is part of the reason why I love them. If they couldn't love God I wouldn't waste my time.

chance

A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 11/24/2001 5:40 AM (GMT -6)

chance:

C'mon Doc! Don't we all hate ourselves to some extent because of our sinfulness? Should we be ambivalent towards our sinfullness or worse yet love it? Not at all! That's why we do things like TNT to help rid ourselves of the sin in our lives, right? Yes, I hate the sin that is within me. Do you?

Iconoclast:

I am a little confused. In TNT speak doesn't the sentence "Yes, I hate the sin that is within me." contain the presupposition that the sin in me is different from me and therefore I can choose to take a different attitude toward myself than toward my sin?

thanks,
Iconoclast

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 11/24/2001 5:56 PM (GMT -6)

Iconoclast: I am a little confused. In TNT speak doesn't the sentence "Yes, I hate the sin that is within me." contain the presupposition that the sin in me is different from me and therefore I can choose to take a different attitude toward myself than toward my sin?

Doc: Exactly. As you see YOUSELF in CHRIST, you understand that you're worth and nature is defined by Christ, and thus that sin is unworthy of you and against your essential nature. You can now see the sin as something that you don't need, is not good for you, is not delivering on what it promised, and thus you are empowered to release it. Just "hating it" as a part of loathing yourself will --guaranteed -- just drive you further into it.

Chance,if God loves people "on the condition of x," then two things seem to follow.
a) What God loves is not people, but the condition they fulfill to get them to love him. If the right behavior is associated with the person, they're in. If not, they're out. Which means what God is really interested in is behavior, not people.

b) If God loves on us to the extent that we are free from sin, but hates us to the extent that we are not free from sin, then we are lost causes. For being compatible with God requires sinlessness.

Now, of course people can reject God's unconditional love. But that doesn't make it unconditional. It just means the person wouldn't receive it.

And that is the best definition of hell I can imagine.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 11/24/2001 7:35 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Doc: b) If God loves on us to the extent that we are free from sin, but hates us to the extent that we are not free from sin, then we are lost causes. For being compatible with God requires sinlessness.

Now, of course people can reject God's unconditional love. But that doesn't make it unconditional. It just means the person wouldn't receive it.

The verse I thought of while reading this is the one where Jesus is dying on the cross and says, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

That statement to me sounds pretty UNCONDITIONAL. The "them" that Jesus is asking forgiveness for are the same "them" that have just put him up on the cross (sinned).

Hmmm?
trosie

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