quote:

---

Excomm:
rb1963b illustrates an interesting principal: If you are looking for unconditional love, if you are looking for your worth as a human being to be accepted, don't look to Christians.

selah:
DO look to Christ.



Excomm:
They excommunicate people.

selah:
You could come to my church.



Excomm:
Everybody longs to be accepted.

selah:
true.



Excomm:
MY POINT: Christians don't be surprized when people turn to evil,

selah:
we aren't surprised.




Excomm:
you've driven them to it,

selah:
I have? Do you know me?




Excomm:
you've locked all other doors to acceptance,

selah:
ALL the doors?




Excomm:
you've once again turned Christ away,

selah:
If so, I will repent and ask for forgiveness knowing He is faithful and just to forgive me of all my sin.




Excomm:
no room in YOUR INN, in YOUR CHURCH for 'those type of people'.

selah:
You could come to my church.




Excomm:
When no one else will love someone why should you be surprized when that person turns to Satan who PROMISES love but doesn't deliver.

selah:
I truly love you, that's why I'm taking time to challenge you here.




Excomm:
Satan is kinda like the church when you come to think about it,

selah:
satan is like SOME of the DEEDS of the PEOPLE IN churches. BUT, satan is the exact opposite of "The Church" (the Body of Christ)




Excomm:
Because if you are baptised you are on the inside, and she knew all to well that the role of the baptised has allways been to lock people out,

selah:
Is this why JESUS was baptised???




Excomm:
What are you going through?

selah:
What are YOU going through?

---

quote:

---

As a matter of fact, being "GAY" is a punnishment. Just read Romans!

---

quote:

---

I know many homosexuals, and homosexuality almost never comes up in conversation. I suspect that homosexuals "rage" in every conversation they have with you because of the way you attack them. It is normal to defend yourself when under attack. Homosexuals are frequently under attack by Christians. Your posts here are a perfect example of the way Christians attack homosexuals.

---

quote:

---

I read Romans and it said that God loves gay people with the same universal and impartial love God has for all sinners (Acts 10:34, cf. Deut. 10:17–19; 2 Chron. 19:7; Job 34:19; Isa. 55:4–5; Mark 12:14; John 3:16; Rom. 2:10–11; Eph. 6:9; 1 Pet. 1:17). The clearest expression of this love is Jesus’ death for our sins: “We know love by this, that he laid down his life for us” (1 John 3:16). “For while we were still weak…Christ died for the ungodly…while we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:6, 8).

Although some Christians believe that Jesus only died to save some people from some sins, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus died as “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2, cf. Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; 2 Pet. 3:9). God “justifies the ungodly” (Rom. 4:5) “through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction” (Rom. 3:22).

Heterosexists and homophobics may impose limits on God’s love, but the Gospel does not. It is good news for everyone.

---

quote:

---

The only people who are excluded are those who exclude themselves because they agree with Satan that they're not good enough, or because, like Simone Weil, they think they’re too good for the church.

---

Oh St. Simone, darling, my love, forgive Pia, she knows not what she is saying.

Ouch Pia, that stings. [With eyes turned upward: Simone, why am I being hurt?] Pia, if you could see how fondly a feel for Simone you would quiver and bow before this feeling, so sublime is it. And nobody would want to risk transgressing it for fear that doing so would would make them liable to the Sanhedren(sp?), so pure is it. If we lived in another age I would chalange you to a duel! But oh, alas I'm bound to this age (don't anyone laugh at me! people are afraid to be serious about anything nowadays because it always comes off as melodramatic. well I don't care. laugh if you like. you can spit too. i've got a great face for spitting. i've got a face which inspires spitting.)

Pia, you seem to have a narrow view of exclusion! Does what you say, that there are only these two reasons why people are exculded, square with the actual experance of those who have been excluded? You seem to limit all exclusion to a kind of self exculsion. Has this historically been the case? You're telling me that the experance of who knows how many people with the church has everything to do with themselves and nothing to do with those people who picket with "God hates gays" slogans? That the "God hates gays" types are being manipulated by gay people who WANT to be excluded? Might not the church bear any responsibilty in this matter? (Dare I suggest it?) are you trying to skirt your own responsiblity for turning people away?

Semeia

quote:

---

I am fascinated by your words about Simone Weil. I know nothing about her but I would definitely like to learn more about her life.

---

I've fallen in love with her. I mean I've---really---fallen---in---love---with---her. I look dotingly (is that the right word?) at pictures of her and sigh. I'm not sure how to handle this love, however. How do you love someone who died before you were born? And she never ate, and I catch myself praying for her even though I don't believe prayer does anything at all any more I still catch myself praying for her to eat when I read her. What good are prayers like this? So I'm left with useless and good for nothing prayers and love.

You should read just a bit of her-just a bit and you'll fall for her too, I'm sure of it.

And to whet your appetite a few facts:
Simone Weil attended the Ecole Normale in Frace when she was 17. It was the very first year they alowed women to attend. And for the entrance thingy (you know how these funky French schools work, they have those entrance thingys that I don't know what they're called. Anyway you write essays and someone wins firsts and seconds and thirds and then the rest just get in and some don't). Well on the entrance thingy with all the men and women together Simone Weil scored first. AND Simone de Beauvoir scored second. Some guy who know one cares about anymore scored third. AND the very last person to make it that year was a little known guy named Jean-Paul Sartre.

"Simone Weil is the only great spirit of our time" -Albert Camus

"Simone Weil is a mystery that should keep us all humble..." -St. Flannery O'Connor

"[Weil's texts] belongs in that category of prolegomena to politics which politicans seldom read, and which most of them would be unlikely to understand or know how to apply....This is one of those books which ought to be studied by the young before their leisure is lost...the effects of which, we can only hope, will become apparent in the attitude of mind of another generation [...] We must simply expose ourselves to the personality of a woman of genious, of a kind of genius akin to that of a saint." -T.S. Eliot

"Simoen Weil assaulted the Garden of Gethsemane, and as is so often the case, was broken on the gate. At least she speaks, again and again, of her absolutely sure sense of the suddenly descending, all-suffusing presence of God. So we know that somewhere, somehow, in all her agony, she did find some center of peace, a peace which, unless we happen to believe in God, we may find hard to explain." -Kenneth Rexroth

"[Weil] has come to seem more and more a special exemplar of sanctity for our time-the Outsider as Saint in an age of alienation, our kind of saint." -Leslie Fiedler

She has this really cool small book called Gravity and Grace that is a good place to start. She also has a good reader which has a bit of everything so that might be a good place to start too. Oh, or she has a book of mystical poetry called The Red Virgin. Actually start anywhere, just START.

Oh woe is me, my soulmate and I are seperated by the infinte abyss of time. (What am I whining about? She would never have gone for a guy like me anyway)



Edited by - excommunicated on 01/02/2002 03:39:13 AM

quote:

---

Semeia:
Gluttony is mentioned in the Bible as a sin, and over sixty percent of the American population is overweight.

selah:
I don't know where you get your statistics (mostly because you don't post them) but do any of those 60% of people have trouble with their thyroid?

---

Semeia: I got that particular statistic out of a book called Homosexuality and Christian Faith, by Walter Wink. The actual statistic is not important to me, you can look around and call it whatever you want. But whether or not it is twenty percent, or forty percent, or sixty percent, it is still a significantly higher number than the number of homosexuals in the population. It is a problem, identified in the Bible as a sin, which many people have. The number of people who are overweight because of an underlying medical problem is very small. I thought about mentioning underlying medical problems as a small percent (it was mentioned in the book) but I thought it wasn't necessary for the point I was making. Sorry. I should have mentioned that.

Selah said:

quote:

---

Semeia:
Gluttony is by definition eating to excess. Gluttony is a sin. People who are overweight are by biblical definition "living in sin".

selah:
reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaccccccccchhhhhhhing don't you think?

---

Semeia: No, actually I don't think this is a reach, although I understand why it is upsetting to people. I should perhaps clarify something here: I don't judge overweight people, in the same way I don't judge homosexuals. Overweight people could theoretically eat less, but they have a lot of reasons for eating the way they do, including, in some cases, genetics, family influence, psychological issues, etc; and in the end they have more pressing issues in their lives, and losing weight is not the top priority. In the same way, homosexuals could theoretically stop having sex (in committed monogamous gay relationships), but they have a lot of reasons for living the way they do, including, in some cases, genetics, family influence, psychological issues, etc; and in the end they have more pressing issues in their lives, and living a life of chastity is not a top priority.

Personally, I think it is absurd and hypocritical to expect gay people to practice chastity--something that even Paul said that not all people are called to do. (Paul's idea was that if the world were the way he wanted, no one would marry. He sadly allowed that this was not possible.) The only people who could really recommend this way of life without hypocrisy would be priests or monks who themselves have chosen to abstain from sex for their lifetime. Of course, we know that priests and monks don't always fulfill their vows equally, based on the many publicized incidents of priests molesting the altar boys, or other children in their care, and the untold number of incidents that never make the light of day.

By the way, if gluttony (defined in the dictionary--Merriam-Webster in my case--as eating to excess, which I interpret as: eating more than is necessary or good for your body) is a sin, and a person is consistently overweight for years, and they don't have a medical problem, in what way can they be said to NOT be living in sin?

I don't say this in judgment. I myself "live in sin" because of the myriad of sins that I am never able to overcome, in some cases no matter how hard I have tried, in other cases because I haven't tried hard at all.

Selah said:

quote:

---

selah:
It could be argued that ANY sex outside of marriage IS worse, because people HAVE to eat, and people COULD completely abstain from sex! (I should know..ha)
Now, if people are overweight, it may be because of any number of variables. ie. not eating healthy, being too poor to pick and choose what you can afford to eat, slow matabolism, eating at the wrong time of day, not thinking about what you are eating etc..............

Semeia:
Is homosexual sex a worse sin than gluttony?

selah:
well, you have to choose to have sex outside of God's ideal. Homo, or hetero it is a choice and you can live without it. Conversely, you can not live without food.

---

Semeia: I don't follow your logic here. In what way would overweight people be required to live without food in order not to sin? All that would be required would be to eat less. Now I am well familiar with the difficulty of this, having been both an anorexic at one time in my life, and overweight at another time of my life. Food issues are complex and often very intractable, with many overlapping influences. A lot like psychosexual issues, come to think of it. That is why many people fail, in spite of their best efforts. That is why we should never judge, because all of these things are very complex, and not at all as simple as the commands: eat less; and stop having sex.

Selah said:

quote:

---

Semeia:
Where do we find those things "rated" in the Bible?

selah:
I asked a professor this. I don't know exactly how to explain it, but what he described was the "missing of the mark" as an arrow hitting a target. You can MISS the 'target' by a LOT and not even hit it at all, or you can miss it by a little and end up oh so close. Either way you miss the mark.

---

Semeia: The Greek word for sin is Hamartia, which is an archery term that literally means "missing the mark". The Hebrew word for sin is Chet, which means error.

In any case, where in the Bible are the sins rated to show how some "miss the mark" by a lot more than others? And where in the Bible does it show that it makes any difference by how far a margin you miss the mark? Greg Boyd preached a great sermon on this last spring--I think it was called Clearing the Bar.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus erases these types of distinctions, again and again, for example when he says that lust in your heart is the same as adultery, and saying "thou fool" to your brother puts you in danger of hell fire, etc.

Selah said:

quote:

---

Semeia:
Why are our leaders permitted to have some sins that are hidden (such as lust in the heart, envy, covetousness, pride, self-righteousness, etc.) and some sins that are external (gluttony, remarriage, anger, pride, etc.) and yet certain sins that the majority of people find repugnant are forbidden?

selah:
What do you think? Do you think we could have any pastors/leaders if we didn't draw the line somewhere? Are you saying that we should allow a prostitute to preach? A murderer?
Should we even have jail? Isn't it judging to put someone in jail when we are 'just as bad'?

---

Semeia: People get put in jail for breaking the law of the land they live in. They do not get put in jail for sinning, unless the law happens to coincide with a sin, such as murder. People who are overweight and people who engage in monogamous homosexual sex are not breaking the law. This is not a legal question.

Should we draw the line somewhere? Yes, I would never want to be preached to by someone who lacked integrity, or kindness, or insight, or leadership. I just happen to think that none of these qualities have anything to do with a person's sexual identity. Sexual identity is as irrelevant an indicator of a person's moral fiber as their weight is.

Is homosexual monogamous sex equivalent to prostitution and murder? I see no comparison, and neither does our government, since homosexual sex is legal, nor do most psychologists, as evidenced by the fact that homosexuality does not appear in the DSM-IV.

Selah said:

quote:

---

Semeia:
The inclusivity of the church does not match my experience. I happen to think, based on your previous postings, that you have nothing but love in your heart for homosexuals. Your love and kindness and acceptance come shining through.

selah:
Yup, I believe Pia's love and kindness and acceptance do shine through...to ALL, not just homosexuals. I also believe that she believes in reason and justice. (correct me if I'm wrong Pia If she had a friend who's pastor was sleeping with half the congregation, she would most likely tell that friend....."I don't think that's good"

---

Semeia: Finally, we agree on something: Pia's overall goodness!!! We love Pia! (Even when we disagree.)

You seem to be equating a monogamous practicing homosexual with someone promiscuously sleeping with half the congregation. I don't understand this comparison. I would have a problem with a gay pastor who was sleeping around. I have been careful to say "monogamous practicing homosexual" to differentiate between the two.

What I hear you say is that it is your opinion that ANY type of homosexual sex is REALLY BAD, and should disqualify a person from church leadership. I do not see the biblical foundation of highlighting this sin over others, for many reasons. Here is what Deuteronomy 21:18 says about a rebellious and gluttonous son:

"If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid."

It seems safe to say that we take a very different approach today to our stubborn and rebellious children, even if they eat too much and are drug or alcohol addicted. We don't use the Bible to determine how we should treat overweight and drug addicted people, and we shouldn't be using the bible to determine how we treat homosexuals. (Except in the sense that we are asked to love our neighbor as ourself.) As it says in Romans, God gave us the power to determine these things. I think it is time to turn to the sciences of psychology and genetics, and take a fresh look at people who through no choice of their own are homosexual. Most of the sexual ethics of the Bible have been rejected, as well as other things supported in the Bible, such as slavery, polygamy, marriage with thirteen-year-old girls, etc. And yet we persist in pointing to the Bible on this issue, in very inconsistent ways. Even though at the time the Bible was written nothing at all was known about homosexuality as we understand it today. It was looked at as a choice that heterosexuals made out of lust. We know today that that is a false view.

Selah said:

quote:

---

Semeia:
I believe that we share the same goal: that some day all people will be equally embraced by the church.

selah:
Just because people take a stand on sin doesn't mean they don't share in this goal.
(note: I abhor the WAY in which some people take a stand...ie, this thread!)

---

Semeia:

You seem to suggest that I don’t take a stand on sin. I take a very strong stand on sin. And I base my stand on the words and actions of Jesus:

Stand #1: We are all totally guilty of sin. Lust in the heart is the same as adultery. A single careless thought means we are as guilty as the murderer.

Stand #2: Sin is something that we should focus on in ourself – NOT in the other person. We have a Log in our eye – the other has only a Speck. Jesus tells us that this is the way it is. Why? Because the fundamental problem with us fallen humans is that we stole the judgment of good and evil from God. We now judge falsely apart from God – our “judger” is fundamentally broken – and so we are ALL hypocrites – Jesus makes this clear as can be.

Stand #3: Christians judging practicing monogamous homosexuals as somehow living in sin different from the rest of us is the height of hypocrisy and goes right at the heart of what it means to be a Pharisee.

Selah said:

quote:

---

self: "yes, I just do not believe that Semeia or others would have the EXACT SAME respect for a pastor or friend who sleeps around, murders, or steals, that they do for a friend or pastor who has a coveting thought" and....."I just want them to SAY it say it SAY IT!"

---

Semeia: I have no problem at all saying that I wouldn't have the same feeling about a pastor or friend who sleeps around, murders, or steals. I just don't put practicing monogamous homosexuals in that category. I put them in the same category as overweight people, angry people, covetous people, envious people, and the rest of humanity who sin in ways that are consistent with being human in a fallen world. The first list, people who sleep around, murder, and steal, are all people who hurt others in a very direct way, that in the case of murder and stealing should be immediately stopped.

Thanks,
Semeia


"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

quote:

---

Selah, Wow, you really like to mismatch. But tell me, what is your positive point of view in all of this? What do YOU believe?

I believe that God loves everyone equally. I also believe that we have had this conversation (or something similar) on another thread.


No,I don't like to mismatch, I just don't have a lot of time. I probably shouldn't be on here at all. I'm usually in a hurry, don't take enough time to think things through & I'm no writer. sorry.


_____________________________________________



Semeia:
Let's assume that homosexuality is determined at a very early age, and therefore that it is not something that a teenager is influenced by. Let's assume a person is a practicing monogamous homosexual Christian. Some questions:

selah:
let's assume.


1) Is it possible to be a practicing monogamous homosexual saved Christian?
selah:
ABSOLUTELY

2) If so, should this person be excluded from a sanctioned role within the church?
selah:
Hard to say, since I've never been over anyone in the church. I guess I would leave that to the pastor and overseers.
I CAN say, if they asked for a vote, I would
vote the same way if it were a heterosexual person living with a monagomous committed partner.

3) If so, why?
selah:
Because God is no respector of persons.


4) What action would you take toward this person in order to be helpful?
selah:
Love them from my guts! And answer any questions they ask me IN TRUTH and LOVE.
(assuming we're in relationship)

5) Why do you think the action you would take would be helpful to that person?
selah:
Semeia, my real answer to you is "because I have seen it over and over and over, it works!"
and the answer for the website would be:
"Because love covers a multitude of sins (including mine), and paves the way for anything else."

---