 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 1/21/2002 4:56 PM (GMT -6) |   | What follows is an attempt at an integrated interpretation of the biblical Exodus for our not-so-integrated American context. — inspired by MLK, Jr.
Segregated perspectives, segregated interpretations…
White American evangelicals comfortably cast themselves in the role of the new Israel, God’s chosen people. We attribute our prosperity to God’s blessing as a result of our commitment to upholding the Christian values upon which this country was founded. Recently, influential white evangelicals have cited the events of Sept. 11 as evidence that God is judging our nation for growing secularization and lower moral standards. Such popular religious sentiments betray a profound lack of awareness and engagement of black Christians’ perspective, who are more likely to cast white people in the role of Egypt rather than Israel, to attribute white prosperity to racial privilege rather than God’s providence, and who have no nostalgia for the values upon which this country was founded—values that allowed Africans to be bought and sold as property rather than regarded as human beings.
“Knowing not” (unmoved mover) vs. “mourning with those who mourn and rejoicing with those who rejoice (most moved mover)
We celebrate the Civil Rights Movement’s many victories (e.g. abolishing Jim Crow laws), but the ongoing lack of integration between white and black Americans needs to be taken more seriously by Christians. The first thing we learn about Pharaoh in the book of Exodus is that he "did not know Joseph" (Exod. 1:8)—perhaps the gap between the ancient Egyptians and Hebrews is an apt biblical analogy for our racially-divided American context. Historically, African American Christians have identified strongly with God’s liberation f h Hebrew people and the destruction of their Egyptian oppressors in the Exodus. But what resources might this text offer for an integrated American application?
Terence Fretheim notes that, "In comparing such texts as 3:7–10 with 5:5–18 it becomes apparent that Pharaoh is the unmoved mover, not God. It is Pharaoh whose heart is hard; God enters deeply into Israel’s suffering and it moved by it" (The Pentateuch, 109). In the Exodus, Pharaoh’s hardness of heart led to further oppression of the Israelites but also to his own destruction as their oppressor. There was a time when Egyptians rejoiced with Israelites who rejoiced (Gen. 45:16–20) and mourned with Israelites who mourned (Gen. 50:1–3); there was once a Pharaoh who knew Joseph. There has not been an analogous period of openness and mutuality between white and black Christians in American history, but can it be a possibility for our future? Rather than hardening our hearts toward the history of profound suffering in our midst, white Christians should repent of the ways we have participated in its perpetuation so we can participate with God in its transformation. Willing the well-being of others is simultaneously willing our own well-being.
Subversive allegiances: Pharaoh’s daughter and Moses’ mother
Another resource within the text for an integrated source of hope is the subversive allegiance between Pharaoh’s daughter and Moses’ mother. Although Pharaoh ordered that all male Hebrew children were to be killed because the Hebrews were perceived as a threat to Egyptian sovereignty, Moses’ mother risked her own life to raise her son. Pharaoh’s daughter not only permitted Moses’ mother to continue raising him, but also paid her to do it. Pharaoh’s daughter’s response to Israelite suffering parallels God’s heart rather than Pharaoh’s (comp. 2:23–25; 3:2–8). Just as God worked through the allegiance of these women to give birth to possibilities for liberation, our own history of greater engagement (though not unproblematic) between black and white women in America due to interlocking oppressions of racism and sexism has potential for an allegiance that participates in the transformation of our history of suffering rather than its perpetuation.
God’s response to suffering and injustice: Moses and MLK, Jr.
God responded to Hebrew suffering by raising up a liberator who would lead them out of Egypt to a land of promise. Black Americans celebrate Martin Luther King Jr. as a liberator analogous to Moses, yet white American responses to King have included hostility, ambivalence, and ignorance. These responses reveal hardness of heart toward black American suffering in our midst. An integrated American hope in God’s goodness should involved the recognition of Martin Luther King Jr. as an important leader for all Americans, and the formation of European and African allegiances that give birth to greater possibilities for transformation.
Provisional separation as creative activity for the sake of the whole
Serious exploration of the resources the biblical Exodus offers for identifying structures of suffering and possibilities of liberation in America is important because of how the story has functioned as a source of hope for black Christians and because of how it may serve to convict white Christian hardness of heart toward suffering caused by our own abuses of power. But it is also important to recognize the limitations of this biblical analogy. In the Exodus—even in the subversive allegiance between Pharaoh’s daughter and Moses’ mother, the master-slave relationship remains, and liberation is achieved through separation, not integration. Separation is sometimes necessary for survival. However, with God separation is always a creative act, that has the whole world in mind. As Fretheim notes, "While the liberation of Israel is the focus of God’s activity, it is not the ultimate purpose. The deliverance of Israel is ultimately for the sake of all creation (see 9:16)."
Tearing down walls and building bridges: The Cross
The church surely would not exist today if God had not created a way to overcome divisions between Jew and Gentile, male and female, slave and free: "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace; in his flesh he has made both groups into one and has broken down the diving wall, that is, the hostility between us" (Eph. 2:11 ff.). God’s creative activity is the basis for continuity between the Passover meal and the Last Supper—and for "tearing down walls and building bridges" between people who have historically been at odds.
The ground at the foot of the cross is level. God’s power and wisdom are revealed under this sign of weakness and foolishness. The cross humbles the powerful and encourages the humbled. Rather than merely inaugurating deliverance fom suffering, the cross calls us to engage suffering with hope that does not disappoint, for it is grounded in God’s love (Rom. 5:5), not in human claims to power that alienate and abuse rather than integrate. As Douglas John Hall notess: “Faith, therefore, does not account for the redeeming patterns and directions that it sees in history by pointing either to human intentions or human deeds. Faith confesses rather that God is able and willing, using the raw stuff of our deeds and misdeeds in much the same manner as God used the primeval chaos to create a world, to alter the cours of things, to privde a way into the future.” God can make a way between black and white Americans where historically there has been no way.
Tearing down walls and building bridges: Worship
Worship holds the concrete/liberation and cosmic/creation poles together, as exemplified in Moses and Miriam’s song in Exod. 15. In worship, we celebrate the Creator’s concrete activity in our midst. The cosmic scope of this activity assures us that our cooperation with God—our obedience to the call—is not in vain, even if we never fully realize these cosmic aims concretely (Heb. 11). As Fretheim notes, "Perhaps above all, the exodus is seen to be a sign of hope that poverty and oppression are not the last word, for God is at work on behalf of a different future."
Tearing down walls and building bridges: Spirit
My church choir sings a song called "Stir up the gift." It comes from 2 Tim. 1:6–7: "Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you.…For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." Our history reminds us that there is real risk of failure in singing about this gift (and the responsibility it entails) together, but because of God’s ongoing creative activity, we are confident that the risk is not in vain.
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“Racism is a sickness unto death.” § Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Edited by - pia†desideria on 01/21/2002 10:04:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
 |
pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 1/21/2002 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Please post your own MLK Jr.-inspired reflections, insights, and convictions in this thread. Peace, pia
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“Racism is a sickness unto death.” § Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. | | Back to Top | | |
|
churchmouse522
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163
| Posted 1/21/2002 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Well said Pia.
Anyone who is interested in this topic should read Dr. King's letter from the Birmingham jail. It contains an important critique of the stance of the white church leaders of that time, and sadly, much of it still rings true today.
Here's a little taste of the letter:
quote:
Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
Blessings,
Mouse
"We're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy." Seal | | Back to Top | | |
|
writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 1/21/2002 7:55 PM (GMT -6) | | A good take on MLK Jr., is by Phillip Yancey, in his book Soul Survivor. Harold
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Cibertus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 1/22/2002 3:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Acts 6
Now during those days, when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution of food. 2 And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3 Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task, 4 while we, for our part, will devote ourselves to prayer and to serving the word.” 5 What they said pleased the whole community, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, together with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. 6 They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.
7 The word of God continued to spread; the number of the disciples increased greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.
Okay so the Greeks were complaining against the Hebrews. And when the complaint was addressed the community gave the Greeks (those who were complaining) the authority to make necessary changes--notice: all the names given here are Greek.
I have always found that to be an incredible way of dealing with issues/complaints. It is found out rather quickly which complaints are legit and which aren't. As for its application to race issues--voluntarily relinquishing power is hard but necesary?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/22/2002 1:48 PM (GMT -6) | | OK, now for some politically INCORRECT TRUTH.
MLK is actually MICHEAL LUTHER KING.
He changed his name to appear like the first reformer.
His FBI files are still under raps.
He mingled with American Communists.
Now, before you go jump over the deep end in prejudgement, after all MLK was against that wasn't he? I greatly respect Alan Keys, Ken Hamblin, Walter Williams, Justice Thomas.
Why is a man that cheated on his wife so celebrated? I just wonder? Couldn't be because of rewriting history of a protected class, now could it? Sorta like John F. Kennedy and his ability to place his PT boat right in the way of a Jap. Ship? Yeah, great navy Officer, him! NOT!
| | Back to Top | | |
|
pia†desideria
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301
| Posted 1/23/2002 5:25 AM (GMT -6) | | rb1963b: OK, now for some politically INCORRECT TRUTH.
pia: I think Mouse’s MLK quote shows that he was also against political correctness: "Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." It is a cheap way to convince people you are a nice person; it masks the issues and makes them even more difficult to identify and deal with.
rb1963b: MLK is actually MICHEAL LUTHER KING. He changed his name to appear like the first reformer.
pia: MLK’s actions clearly identify him as a reformer in the same category as Martin Luther.
rb1963b: His FBI files are still under raps.
pia: They are probably keeping them under raps to avoid furthur embarassment to McCarthy and the FBI.
rb1963b: He mingled with American Communists.
pia: Good.
rb1963b: Why is a man that cheated on his wife so celebrated? I just wonder?
pia: MLK is not celebrated for cheating on his wife. He is celebrated for his role in the peaceful but powerful Civil Rights Movement in America. King David was an adulterer, too. Moses was a murderer. Yet they were mighty men of God and so was MLK.
pia
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“Not God’s distance but God’s bridging of the distance—this is God’s transcendence…” § Douglas John Hall | | Back to Top | | |
|
rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/23/2002 4:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Hmmm, MLK a mighty man of God? How could this be? Let's see what has come about since his "reformation".
Drug use UP!
Out of wedlock births UP!
Education DOWN!
Black on Black crime UP! (murder, rape, etc.)
Thomas Sowell writes extensively on the above topics. Of course what he has to say doesn't mean anything since he is black, right?
Since MLK's "REFORM" the outlook for "black" America is dismal, however, those that get out of the "reformation" and into the normalcy of self dependence instead of government dependence, and the idea of being "owed" something, do quite well for themselves!
Of course, they would even do better for themselves if they accept Christ as their personal savior!
| | Back to Top | | |
|
fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/23/2002 4:53 PM (GMT -6) | | The reason and the undergirding, both for Martin Luther King's message and his method, is none other than the life and teaching of Christ.
The 'bible belt', full of good ol' white folks who'd "accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior", nonetheless stood in need of Light to see the God-given worth and dignity of all peoples (you'd think that Gospel truth would have already have occurred to such common, common Gentiles).
People of all nations and races stand to benefit from a life lived, and then given, for such purpose. Was MLK a sinner? Adulterer? Amazing Grace!, that would then
appoint and use such a one to confront
a self-righteous, 'satisfied' christian
culture which was either blind to, or else approved of, vicious and deadly oppression
towards a people, based on the color of their skin. Or do you think God prefers
murderous, self-righteous racists to other
varieties of sinners?
The (evil) spiritual reality which stalked
and murdered Martin Luther King has a residual life today within exclusive and partisan folk who go out of their way to disqualify him, rather than give assent to the liberating Truth of Christ which MLK etched in history with his own blood.
Non-martyr spectators do well to at least acknowledge that their empassioned opinions
cost them no where near as much.
"Greater love has no one than this, that
a man lay down his life for his friends."
| | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/23/2002 5:35 PM (GMT -6) | | rb1963b, if perfection is what you demand of a "reformer," then there are no reformers. Calvin? Among the many fallible things the did, he played a central role in the execution of Michael Servetus. Luther? Hitler celebrated him as one of the two greatest men of history and used his two volume work "On the Jews and Thier Lies" to justify the early episodes of his "final solution." Yet we (esp. Protestants) don't write these two off altogether, but celebrate the icentral deas they stood for. God used even vile sinners like these two!
Now, MLK isn't nearly as bad as Calvin (murder) and Luther (rabid anti-semite). But he's certainly not perfect. Is this grounds for dismissing the central message his life stood for? His dream? What do YOU think of "the dream"?
If you share it, celebrate it, and thank God for the man who dared to articulate it, died for it, and was, like you, forgiven for his many shortcomings.
Doc
Ps. If "the dream" is part of what you disagree with, then we have a far more serious problem than MLK's adultery to deal with.
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
|
fr.patmos
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 1/23/2002 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc's response, above,
is both beautifully put and clear.
peace to us all
| | Back to Top | | |
|
churchmouse522
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 163
| Posted 1/23/2002 6:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Hmmm, MLK a mighty man of God? How could this be? Let's see what has come about since his "reformation".
Drug use UP!
Out of wedlock births UP!
Education DOWN!
Black on Black crime UP! (murder, rape, etc.)
Boy, now that you point it out, the world seems to have gone to hell in a handbasket since Jesus died on the cross. I guess he must not have been a "mighty man of God."
Or maybe I just wasn't getting your point.
Mouse
"We're never gonna survive unless we get a little crazy." Seal | | Back to Top | | |
|
rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/24/2002 2:33 PM (GMT -6) | | Sorry if I don't agree with the idea of a social gospel. For if a mans heart is not converted to Christ, it doesn't matter what his hands work, now does it?
The "Dream" will never be realized until Christ returns.
If you think differently, then please enlighten me as to how your "gospel" will work.
OH, and BY THE WAY, according to MY BIBLE if an elder commits adultery, he is to give up his "position".
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 1/24/2002 4:23 PM (GMT -6) | | rb:
For if a mans heart is not converted to Christ, it doesn't matter what his hands work, now does it?
Iconoclast:
What is your evidence for this? Certainly it is true that a person who does good works but has not love profiteth nothing. But clearly this statement presupposes that it is possible to do good works without love - without being converted to Christ - and it is clearly the person doing the good works who doesn't profit. This statement has no meaning if the works weren't actually good.
rb:
Hmmm, MLK a mighty man of God? How could this be? Let's see what has come about since his "reformation".
Drug use UP!
Out of wedlock births UP!
Education DOWN!
Black on Black crime UP! (murder, rape, etc.)
Thomas Sowell writes extensively on the above topics. Of course what he has to say doesn't mean anything since he is black, right?
Since MLK's "REFORM" the outlook for "black" America is dismal, however, those that get out of the "reformation" and into the normalcy of self dependence instead of government dependence, and the idea of being "owed" something, do quite well for themselves!
Iconoclast:
But rb, MLK never argued for welfare policies that were dependence traps. I agree that Sowell and Murray document these social policy mistakes very well. But MLK did not cause them - that certainly wasn't HIS reformation. MLK was crystal clear; he called for a colorblind society where a man is judged based on the content of his character not the color of his skin. MLK argued for dignity and respect for all. Have you ever listened to his speech? Do you not want a colorblind society where people are judged on the content of their character?
And unfortunately you are quite correct his dream has not been realized and probably never will be here on earth. But, rb, why do you hate him for having this dream?
thanks,
Iconoclast
"being weird is rarely a total waste of time" - Greg Boyd
Edited by - Iconoclast on 01/24/2002 9:24:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/27/2002 4:41 AM (GMT -6) | | I never said that I hated him, what I hate is the lie of his dream. The implied meaning of "all God's Children" is the "brotherhood of man" no matter what they believe, or what "god" they believe in. He was suppose to be a minister of "God", yet he didn't get the simple concept that only those that accept Christ as savior are the "Children of God" in this dispensation of Grace.
Do you have a problem with God's statement, "the people are one"? Do you have a problem with God seperating the Jews? Do you have a problem with him only accepting those that believe in Christ? Do you have a problem with God segregating others FROM the Jews in the future Kindom on Earth?
I know, "There is no difference", "There is neither jew nor gentile, male nor female", but the context that you will try to put those in is wrong. Clearly you can look around and see that there are definitly male and female. The same Paul who wrote those also stated that an elder in the Church must be a male, that women are to keep silence while teaching in the church is going on when there is a mixed audience. The only thing that we are the same in is that we are sinners in need of a savior. AND God accepts anyone who believes the Gospel as presented in Romans 10:9-13 and 1 Cor. 15:1-4.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/2/2002 2:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Great topic. From my own experience "AS A CANADIAN" I want to share some of my thoughts on this tmw. But for now, it is nighty-night time as I have to work midnights.  , 
Brandon
| | Back to Top | | |
|
BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/4/2002 3:02 PM (GMT -6) | | I tried writing this before but I had a power outage and it went to pot.
Sooo, here it is again, probably in a more condensed form of what I wrote previously.
First, to rb.
Read "Kingdoms in Conflict" by Chuck Colson. Read about William Wilberforce who was instrumental in abolishing slavering in England, yet never lived to see it abolished in his life time. I think we have to remember what our purposes are. Sometimes they are evangelistic, and sometimes they are not. Sometimes they are just for being good 'ol salt and light in the market place. Remember, Jesus did more than preach or evangelize. The Bible says in Acts 10:38: "And no doubt you know that God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. Then Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the Devil, for God was with him." I think Greg was right on in God at War when he talked about how Christians should be involve in all areas of life as a part of warfare.
A question that comes up is one of cobelligerency with other faiths. Evangelicals are realizing more and more today that if we are to win the "culture wars" (I put that in emphasis because sometimes we are not so clear on precisely what that entails, i.e. pro-family values, in that arena, there are alarmist and non-alarmist sides and that the call to return back to traditional values is not really Christian at all, but a Christianize or santized version of worldly values) that we need to work side by side with others of different faiths or no faith. We will still have differences. Some will be more exclusive than others. But the purpose is not evangelization. It is societal reform. We are not necessarily asking what Rodney King asked, (which by the way, aside from all the sarcasm attached to it, is a very good question and a great opportunity for evangelization) "Can't we all get along???"
Some ask the question of whether this would reflect a "new moralism." That is, can political involvement be divorced from the Gospel? For i.e. do we have to have biblical or faith reasons for why we are for this or that particular social issue? What if we agree with the atheist, or religious person who doesn't ground his reason in the Bible or their faith? I see no reason why we as Christians ought not to ground our stances in our faith or the Bible other than for strategic reasons. For i.e. if we go to the Supreme court and argue for the abolition of abortion, we don't have to spout off all the theological reasons for why a law should be passed. This would not only scare the public that "The fundamentalists are taking over!!!" but it would hinder us from achieving victories by lessening our strenght through cobelligerency with those of differing faiths or no faiths. Ultimately, as Christians our faith does root our reasons for political stances.
Also, there are two kingdoms in this world. God and Caesar's. Sometimes they overlap. And many times we move between them to the indignation of those who don't see the lines clearly defined and think they ought to be. It just isn't the case. Look at how evangelicals differ on so many issues.
To Pia. This is more from my experience. While I agree with the general tenor of your post, the biblical methaphor, wow, that was great, my thinking is that isn't racism really some kind of power struggle?
I guess what bothers me is that while it is true that "the man" has oppressed the negro race, it does go both ways.
One of my reasons for coming back home was culture shock. While living in Dallas, I experienced to some extent "reverse racism." Like African Americans were some of the most unkind people I encountered. Now, I hope this doesn't sound racist. But it was certainly one of the strongest impressions I recieved while there. I remember walking into this beef and steak joint with one of my friends in south Dallas when the O.J thingy was going on. There were only African American people there and this honking big picture of O.J. looking as if he was being oppressed by "whitey." I cannot tell you the looks and animosity vibes we got from those in the joint. I say that 'cause my friend and I discussed our experience when we left. Food was great though.  But man....
See, I grew up in a foster home with some black foster brothers. One of my favorite foster brothers was black. Jim Sealy. While he had his bouts of anger concerning how he was treated at points in his youth, he really was the coolest cat around. He "cultured me" in my boyhood. I learned to love Gino Vannelli, Billy Joel and Barry Manilow, (all white boys) and Stevie Wonder 'cause of him. He looked at me as a little brother. And I looked up to him as a big brother.
He would take me in his Ford 500 and we would drive into town and go eat and just hang together. I remember that he would let me play with his afro. I would part it down the middle and hide coins in it to go treasure hunting later on. He was a lot of fun.
One year around Christmas, my foster mother, sister and I would make our weekend trip into town. I would be given an allowance with so much to buy. I decided to give Jim a car freshener. It was a bear. It cost me a whole $1.57. The anticipation of giving him that gift was high. This meant a lot to me whether he would like it or not. When he opened it, he thought it was really cool and chuckled about it. He didn't condescendingly look down on me. We would drive into town from that day foward with that bear hanging from his lighter.
See, in Canada, our racist problem is based more on language. Between French Canada and English Canada. There are cultural issues, but I don't see them as defining. Maybe they are. Uncle Tom's cabin (yes there really is an Uncle Tom's cabin) is just up the road in Dresden Ontario and the underground railroad is just around the corner.
But I am wondering if the problem should be framed between whites and blacks. As real as the problem is. Most Americans have this understanding that Abraham Lincoln was the "great emancipator." Yet history shows that his main concern was not the freedom of slaves as such, but may have in fact been keeping the union together. If owning slaves would keep it together he would have been satisfied with letting it continue.
And lastly, most Americans also hold to the myth that blacks were the only ones oppressed. There was such a thing as "poor white trash" back in the day. If you were poor and white you were certainly looked down upon and treated almost the same way by those who were wealthy white aristocrats.
I guess what I am saying is that framing the problem in terms of white and black to some extent is not always accurate both historically or maybe even advantageous politically. And that we should look more towards power or control as the central issue. Just my beef.
Brandon
Edited by - BBBCanada on 02/04/2002 8:15:49 PM | | Back to Top | | |
|
rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 2/4/2002 5:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon,
I was adopted by older folks. My mom's mom was a share cropper in Eastern Texas, (By the way have you heard of Kaufman? It is about 33 miles South East of Big D.)
We were pretty poor, but growing up in that condition you didn't know that you were poor!
I have read quite alot about MLK, I have even liked some of his earlier sermons when he preached a pure salvation message, BUT, when he changed it to the social gospel that he is known for now, he preached ANOTHER gospel. I think that he is now an icon.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/4/2002 7:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Rb, I don't know how on earth you can label a message about human equality, dignity and freedom "another gospel."
The logic is simple:
a) The Bible says we are all made in God's image.
b) All people deserve to be treated as being in God's image.
c) Our society DOESN'T treat all as being in God's image (though us White folk who ARE treated respectfully don't have to NOTICE it)
d) Hence, the Bible mandates that we work to get people to treat all as being in God's image.
What don't you get about this?
Its about MLK's MESSAGE. Focusing on him as a person is a "red herring."
Lovingly
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
|
BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 2/5/2002 3:46 AM (GMT -6) | | rb. Can't say I heard of Kaufman. But hey dude, I'm with Greg on this one. What is wrong with what he said? I see what he said as based in our faith as Greg has pointed out. Its about human dignity. Not the Gospel per se.
Some what as an aside on this. I think the Civil Rights movement was a very healthy thing for society, but now "rights" talk has gone to far in the other direction to the point where "community" is not even an issue. Public discourse seems to get muddled with contradictions between these two poles as a result.
Anyhoo, gotta fly, but read Colson rb.
Brandon
| | Back to Top | | |
|
rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 2/5/2002 5:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg,
I can't believe that you would buy into the social gospel. I never said to mistreat anyone, so I hope that is not what you are implying. The gospel of Jesus Christ as preached by Paul deals between God and the individual, WHERE does it say anything in Romans 10:9,10,11 or 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 about accepting muslims (All God's Childern as espoused by MLK)?
Was God wrong for seperating those at the Tower of Bable? Was he wrong to seperate out Israel? Is he wrong for seperating those of us who have believed Paul's Gospel? Will he be wrong to deal with Israel in the future?
I know this doesn't play well in todays politically correct gospel, but truth is truth no matter how unpopular it is, My Lord and Savior stated as much when he said "You hate me because I tell you the truth." Popularity is not a requirement to proclaim truth, as a matter of fact most in the Bible met with doom because of proclaiming it.
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 2/6/2002 4:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Greg,
I can't believe that you would buy into the social gospel. I never said to mistreat anyone, so I hope that is not what you are implying. The gospel of Jesus Christ as preached by Paul deals between God and the individual, WHERE does it say anything in Romans 10:9,10,11 or 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 about accepting muslims (All God's Childern as espoused by MLK)?
Was God wrong for seperating those at the Tower of Bable? Was he wrong to seperate out Israel? Is he wrong for seperating those of us who have believed Paul's Gospel? Will he be wrong to deal with Israel in the future?
I know this doesn't play well in todays politically correct gospel, but truth is truth no matter how unpopular it is, My Lord and Savior stated as much when he said "You hate me because I tell you the truth." Popularity is not a requirement to proclaim truth, as a matter of fact most in the Bible met with doom because of proclaiming it.
The Gospel IS social. Reconciliation between God and You is social, reconciliation between God and ME is social. Eph. 2:15 demonstrates that in Christ there is ONE humanity as a result of Christ's work, that's pretty social. RB, it is clear that you are stuck in the dichotomy that divided the 20th C. between fundamentalists and liberals. You identify the term "social" with the liberals. Why not just identify it with Matt. 11? Popularity has nothing to do with it, your suggesting so sheds unfortunate light on your own presuppositions. The BIBLE teaches social justice, if you can't see that, well then you are really not understanding the gospel very well at all. It is precisely CHRIST who manifests justice and offers resources for bringing it about. Do you truly disagree? Are you saying that you don't see the beginning chapters of Acts as a reversal of Babel? Think of the good Samaritan, jeez the list could go on and on, maybe I should just cut and paste the whole Bible in here. The Good News is not good news if it does not include social justice. Here is something Boyd and Piper both agree on! THAT is really saying something. one thing I love about Bethlehem (Piper's church) is that it is located in the heart of the city and from there can minister to the city toward social healing. THAT is social justice by the power of the gospel. Why are you against this RB? Why divorce Jesus from humanity and its problems?
What Greg "buys into" is the Gospel. Putting feet to the Gospel in a socially redemptive way is a matter of obedience. God has commanded it. That's enough for us at our church.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
|
BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 2/6/2002 4:15 AM (GMT -6) | | A hearty "Amen!" from Texas, Modes. Preach on.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
|
GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/6/2002 4:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Modes is getting annointed. Watch out!!!
He's right RB. Most scholars agree that the "tongues" and "hearing" miracle in Acts 2 is a divine orchestrated symbol for Babel being reversed. Then when Peter preaches he overrides every division people knew at the time -- social, gender, economic, national... The Holy Spirit reverses Babel. In Eph 2 Paul proclaims how the walls of division between Jew and Gentile have been torn down, for Christ has united them in one new humanity (vs. 15). In Gal 3 (vs. 27-28) the divisions are again overthrown. etc.
The "social Gospel", rb, was a movement in the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century that reduced the Gospel to social action. I am not advocating that.
Neither did MLK.
Blessings
Greg
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
|
selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 2/6/2002 11:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Think of the good Samaritan, jeez the list could go on and on, maybe I should just cut and paste the whole Bible in here.
~dare ya 
selah
"Then He showed me the river whose waters give life, sparkling like crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb." Rev. 22:1
"The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.” | | Back to Top | | |
| 83 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 3 4 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 12:21 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|