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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/18/2002 7:52 AM (GMT -6) |   | This morning I was walking to class when I heard something that sounded like choir singing on the other side of the drag. I turned, and in the distance I saw a group of adults singing hymns in front of University Baptist Church (a local church here in Austin which accepts homosexuality). Upon closer look, I realized that they were all holding signs with slogans such as "GOD HATES FAGS" and "GOD HATES AMERICA". My blood began to boil and I immediately took off towards them. The group was composed of 10 or so middle-aged women and a man, all of which were holding signs and singing hymns. I approached the man in the group but was quickly confronted by a very outspoken woman who quickly showed me how much she hated me. A young girl, probably around 10 years old, was holding a video-camera and filming my every move. I said to the woman, "Excuse me, but I'm a Christian." She said, "Then you need to be holding one of these signs, not giving us grief." I was very angry, but was able to control it. I just simply told her that I hadn't even said anything to her yet so how could I be causing her grief? Then, before I got into an argument, by the grace of God, someone touched me on the shoulder and said, "Greg, let's go." Chris, one of my good Christian friends had seen me walking towards the group. As we walked back towards campus the lady scoffed at us and mocked us saying that we weren't Christians. How could she have hated me so? I hadn't had time to even tell her that I disagreed with her. I had told her that I was a Christian that wanted to talk and all she did was mock me. For all she knew, I could have been in agreement with her! She judged me before she even knew where I stand.
I signed online and checked out the www.godhatesfags.com site that had been discussed a few months ago, and sure enough, they have a headline on their site about picketing in Austin today. I had encountered the same people.
By noon they were gone. I don't know why they left so early, but I'm thankful they did. I am saddened and shocked by the hatred displayed in this group. On a campus which is already highly-anti-Christian, fringe groups like this can severely damage our ministry on campus.
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation)
Edited by - jewgrass on 01/18/2002 6:05:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/18/2002 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Now imagine that you're gay, and this is what you've encountered your whole life, in one form or another.
Would you wish to talk to Christians about your homosexuality?
What form does love take, in this situation?
What did Jesus say to the woman at the well?
Imagine reaching puberty and discovering that you are only attracted to people of your own sex, at the same time you realize that most of the world hates you.
The only type of sinners that Jesus didn't show total acceptance to were the religious people, who thought they were above reproach.
Why do Christians think they need to fix others?
Just some questions...
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard
Edited by - Semeia on 01/18/2002 1:13:56 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/18/2002 8:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Which is worse:
Hating people for their sexual orientation?
or
Loving someone of the same sex?
From God's point of view, which is worse?
There are many more people in the world that hate homosexuals than there are homosexuals. If stamping out sin is one of the goals of Christianity (according to many Christians) then where is the Christian outcry, the Christian crusade, to stamp out this kind of hatred?
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/18/2002 1:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeia, I have not changed my opinion because of these pseudo-Christians whose gospel is centered on hate. Homosexuality is a sin that we should fight & detest. But we shouldn't try to conquer sin outside the church. We should only judge within the church (1 Corithians 15). My reaction to the people this morning would be the same if they were holding up signs that said, "God Hates Pornographers" or "God Hates Thieves".
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation) | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 1/18/2002 1:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Now imagine that you are discussing gays and you tend to stereotype them as the most abused set of people ever and imagine that everytime an extreme case of some hateful Christians comes out we bemoan the fact that this is happening over and over again, only we don't know where or when but we know its out there, only its all us Christians fault because we are so hateful and we are always telling people how to live their lives because we are so hateful and now I've run out of things to say because such things are done so much over and over again, so much that a once serious subject is just boring now...
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/18/2002 2:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey, Writerdad, Great, so you agree with me now! As long as you say you agree with me, we don't have to discuss this any more...   
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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greg t.
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 1/18/2002 4:49 PM (GMT -6) | | jewgrass,
those guys came to our campus about a couple of years ago. it was a pathetic site.
tj
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rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 1/19/2002 8:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Who in their RIGHT mind would WANT to imagine being the result of God's judgement for loving sex more than loving God?
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/20/2002 3:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Rb, who sinned, a gay person or his parents, that he was born gay?
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 1/20/2002 10:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass,
Thank you for sharing that. It helped me further realize just how messed up that group and their website is. It was good to actually get a firt-hand account of how they treat people.
Semeia,
What exactly did you mean by that last question you posted? Are you implying that people are born gay?
In His Grip,
Matt
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28 | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/20/2002 5:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Most psychologists today agree that sexual identity is formed by the age of five.
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/20/2002 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Equally as puzzling is how Neo Nazis and other white supremist groups can call themselves Christians when the very founder of the sext was...Jewish! And they who first followed Him were...ahem...Jewish!
That one escapes me!
Starkman
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/20/2002 6:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeia, if you and I were to have a discussion about homosexuality, it would not be the kind that you probably would have with most other people.
I would be answering a different question, or approaching the matter as a different sort of issue than I have seen here.
I would begin by focusing on what are the assumptions are behind the particular form of "pietism" that the humanism supporting committed-lifelong-homosexual-fidelity are. Yes, "pietism". Its potentially harmful in Christianity, as making a set of behaviors and feelings set equal to participation in Christ. (It can make for spiritual stillbirth.)
On this site it is the committed-lifelong-homosexual-fidelity that has been put forward as an equal to committed-lifelong-heterosexual-fidelity (marriage).
But I would, from the standpoint of asking "what are the assumptions are behind the particular form of "pietism" that the humanism supporting...." committed-lifelong-heterosexual-fidelity (marriage) be asking questions I've not seen here on heterosexual marriage either. And in fairness (and for greater reasons) they ought to be asked on this site.
Marriage, as it is God-designed, is on par with monasticism. Its goal is beyond itself. You can CERTAINLY make some claims, just from what's said so far, for committed-lifelong-homosexual-fidelity too. And not just all humanistic. But marriage in Christ has an eschatological element (I'm not sure whether that is too strong or not) in that one of the things that sin ruined was the unity of humanity in the communion of genders. (I've seen it said better than that.) Christ is the perfect man. Christ embodies the prototypes of both male and female, summing them up. Christ recapitulates them. ONE of the things that marriage is meant to be is a making "fuller" of that human wholeness.
For whatever good things committed-lifelong-homosexual-fidelity can be credited for, it does not address that[/]. Therefore it is NOT marriage. The designer of marriage got to define it.
If the goal of humanity is fulfillment and happiness, then committed-lifelong-homosexual-fidelity has its place.
But if the goal of humanity is the New Jerusalem, then preparing for THAT is what our lives must be about.
When my Mom got chemotherapy, it did not make her feal good, or comfortable. But if what had been prescribed was comfort and fun, that would have been cruel.
The Elder at our church who interviewed my kids before they began taking communion is a recovering homosexual. He has been in a support group for 6-8 years. As a repentant Christian he is "outed" by having his testimony told in the national magazine, The Banner, of our denomination.
I could not give comfort and encourage fun... I can weep with those who weep. I can support personally. But I cannot tell anyone that it is what God wants them to continue doing.
That would be wrong. | | Back to Top | | |
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Triskal
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 198
| Posted 1/21/2002 6:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Most psychologists today agree that sexual identity is formed by the age of five.
So then you are not saying that homosexuals are BORN the way they are?
"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Acts 17:28 | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 1/21/2002 8:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeia: The same "shrinks," who, until 1972 thought homosexuality was a mental condition. Hmmm, I do wonder which I should believe.
POW: thank you for a wonderfully written (and very loving) piece. Exceptional! Harold
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 1/21/2002 8:03 PM (GMT -6) | | A further thought: it is not enough to show that homosexuality isn't condemned in scripture in order to "prove" that God condones it. What must be shown is that, somewhere in the Bible God institutes it, like he did in Genesis bewteen male and female. When someone shows me that then I will believe that such "couples" are on a par with the original that God brought into being in Genesis. Harold
Edited by - writerdad on 01/22/2002 01:04:41 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 1/22/2002 2:53 AM (GMT -6) | | If I recall correctly, no one was saying that homosexuality was to be considered a norm for Christian living and the way God designed things to work. Only that it shouldn't be the big, bad sin that sends the us into a tailspin and makes us incapable of loving those who are homosexual.
peace and love , don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? " | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/22/2002 4:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Don, I was working on a big long essay to say that same thing. Could I just email my posts to you and have you reduce things to their essence for me? I bet there are a lot of people on the board who would thank you for it!!! 
Honestly, I wish I had your talent for expressing the essential in twenty-five words or less. My husband wishes I had that talent, too!
Even now, I find myself going on and on about your gift of brevity!
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 1/22/2002 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia,
Without you, Mephi, and POW to carry-on the tradition of more fully explaining things, we would actually have to be about doing the WORK of our lives. God forbid! 
peace and love , don
p.s. Just had a thought... what if preachers... oh,well.
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "
Edited by - might-be-don on 01/22/2002 10:04:37 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/22/2002 5:11 AM (GMT -6) | | I am amazed at the amount of effort spent trying to prove whether we are born with homosexual desires or not. If the Bible taught a humanistic Pelagian "man-is-born-morally-good" world-view, then this would be a big issue. But the Bible doesn't teach this. Not only does the Bible not teach that man is born good, the Bible rejects the notion that man is born neutral: WE ARE BORN INTO AN EVIL SINFUL NATURE! Most people who wrongly attack the alleged Calvinist doctrine of "double-predestination" fail to take this into account.
Are men born with a heterosexual drive and sinfully change into homosexuality? Yes, according to Romans. But this may not be the only case. It is entirely possible, probable, and plausible to believe that some people are born with a homosexual drive. This doesn't make their sins less sinful. Just like greed, pride, or selfishness, giving into our sinful nature takes glory away from God. It is this sinful nature which Christ saves us from!
When Jesus saves us from our sinful nature we shouldn't merrily continue in the sins of our old ways: we've been reborn into the body of Christ!
"Should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more kindness and forgiveness? Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? ... Just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives"(Rom 6:1-2,4b). Because of Christ, we don't have to continue in sin. Instead, "when you are tempted, God will show you a way out so that you will not give in to it [sin]" (1 Cor 10:13).
This doesn't give us permission to go rebuke lost sinners like the "God Hates Fags" groups does. On the other hand, we should fight sin within the church and lovingly hold our brothers and sisters in Christ accountable when they become plagued with sin. "It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it is certainly your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways" (1 Cor 5:12).
Christ died for all sinners (John 3:16). Sinners upon being justified by Christ, should, with the power of Christ, flee from sin. Like the adulteress when brought before Christ, we should "Go and sin no more" (John 8:3-11).
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation) | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 1/22/2002 5:24 AM (GMT -6) | | Brief interjection.
Don said:
quote:
Just had a thought... what if preachers... oh,well
Sho nuff, buddy. I'm a firm believer (and practicer) that informative, insightful, Holy Spirit filled sermons don't have to go beyond 20 mins. For real. Being concise forces one to say things that really MATTER and really employ style. I'm especially tired of the 45min to an hour rambles that often go on on certain Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. Sheesh. LOL!
Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love. | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 1/22/2002 5:32 AM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass, Why do you never answer concerning all the sin that we allow? Why have you never answered concerning what Jesus said about divorce and remarriage being adultery and yet he still allowed people to go forth "living in sin"?
Why is homosexuality a "special" sin? Jesus didn't name it as a special sin, although he named a lot of other things, like lust in the heart and anger, which we are all guilty of a lot of the time. Why do you refuse to answer my central argument, both here and in the other big homosexuality thread you started?
Do you disagree with what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount? How do you account for what he says? Do you believe that all the people in the world who have been divorced and remarried should immediately get divorced so that they can stop committing adultery?
And if you don't think so, isn't it hypocritical to apply different standards to different people?
Tell me what you really think...
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/22/2002 6:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jewgrass, Why do you never answer concerning all the sin that we allow? Why have you never answered concerning what Jesus said about divorce and remarriage being adultery and yet he still allowed people to go forth "living in sin"? Why is homosexuality a "special" sin?
First of all, I would like to say that I am not studied up on the issue of divorce. My parents were never divorced, noone in my immediate family has ever divorced, and I'm not even married yet, so its not an issue I've had to deal with. However, as a young adult living in Austin, homosexuality is an issue I've had to deal with. For this reason, my biblical stance on homosexuality is much more concrete than that on divorce (you may question my use of the word biblical in the sentence above, but in every opinionated post I have made on the subject, I have backed it up with scripture yet to be refuted with anything other than philosophy--look in the other threads, God Hates/Loves Fags, etc.).
Second, Semeia, I believe you are working with the presupposition that I do not believe divorce & remarriage is wrong. I believe, like homosexuality, it is an unbiblical event in certain situations. If I supported remarried pastors/deacons, then your argument would be much more hard-hitting. Perhaps we should run from remarriage in the same respect that we run from homosexuality. However this may be possible, I do not think this is the case.
Third, homosexuality is addressed in the Bible far more than remarriage. True, Jesus Christ talks about remarriage but not about homosexuality, but if you accept the entire canon as the inerrant word of God, the words of Paul are as equal as the words of Christ. Homosexuality is never put in positive terms. We know its a sin. We know its wrong. This is concrete and there is no reason to suspect otherwise unless humanistic philosophy gets in the way of biblical interpretation. Divorce & remarriage is also seen as a wrong-doing, but is living with a second spouse living in sin? Would divorcing the second spouse be a sin equal to continuing in marriage? Would yet another divorce do more harm to your ministry and your children than continuing to live as a family?
Remarriage is not as black & white of a subject as homosexuality. Regardless, we should not compromise our Biblical stance on homosexuality because of the possible confusion of the former. I do not believe we should accept remarried leaders in our church because the questions regarding the issue are so abstract. Divorce, like homosexuality, is an awful, ungodly thing that should be resisted. The question is, should living in remarriage be seen as a continual sin like homosexuality, or should the divorce be seen as a forgivable yet irrevocable act like murder?
This is my first post regarding divorce & remarriage, and I'm sure with the impending rebuttals which will follow, my arguments will further formulate & strengthen.
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation) | | Back to Top | | |
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writerdad
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448
| Posted 1/22/2002 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia: the issue with you seems to be that Christians treat the sin of homosexuality different and that is wrong. How true! But, regardless, how one treats one sin as opposed to another is irrelevant as to whether or not the act itself is a sin. It seems that you feel because Jesus didn't address homosexuality it wasn't important. But, as I have said before, Jesus likely did not address it because it wasn't a problem within the culture he lived. Regardless, he affirmed the Old Testament and that condemns homosexuality. I would caution you though. If someone were to read your posts here or in other places, one might get the impression that you view divorce differently than other sins, considering how much you bring it up.
I truly believe that Christians have erred in how they have treated homosexuals (but, hey, get in line. The Church has erred in how its dealt with slavery and other issues throughout the centuries). But that has no bearing on whether or not it is a sin. I would be interested in seeing how you would make a case that affirms homosexuality from the scriptures. Not simply does not condemn it, but show how God affirms it as he has the male female union.
It does seem that whenever the issue is brought up, you harp on the Matthew verse, as if somehow to show that since Jesus talked about divorce we should be more worried about that (treating that sin differently?!). Rather, I would be interested in seeing you affirm homosexual union through what scripture says. If you can make your case there, I would be interested. Harold
Edited by - writerdad on 01/22/2002 4:12:01 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 1/22/2002 12:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeia:
quote:
Which is worse:
Hating people for their sexual orientation?
or
Loving someone of the same sex?
My response:
Rejecting homosexuality as sin does not mean that you hate homosexuals. Honestly: homosexuality disgusts me. If I was in a locker room with guys that I knew were gay, I would be highly uncomfortable... just like a woman would be uncomfortable getting changed in a locker room full of guys. I detest the sin and it disgusts me... but that doesn't mean I hate homosexuals. If I see a gay guy, I don't get mad and want to spit on this "demon from hell." Rather, I feel sorry for this person imprisoned to their sinful nature.
There are three options, not two:
1) Hating homosexuals
2) Accepting homosexuals
Or the third, which is a combination of the two:
3) Loving homosexuals as fellow sinners, but detesting their sin.
This third option is the one that I believe you tend to ignore, Semeia, but I believe it is the stance we should take.
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm contantly attacking you, Semeia, but your the only outspoken supporter of this view on the board that I'm aware of.
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation) | | Back to Top | | |
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