Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > (No Subject)

Forum Quick Jump

36 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

fr.patmos
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/14/2002 1:33 AM (GMT -6)

We convene as followers of Christ
and adherents to Biblical Christianity ...

And then we find racism, for instance, in the living room - racism, voicing as if it belongs within the system.

How do we fully account for that?

Certainly, it illustrates the real
and profound condition of the human heart;

but, my question:

Is there something in our theological
system - something not spoken, mispoken;
something over or under emphasized - which allows the immune residence of racism within the system?

I'm sleepless, honest, and puzzled, over this:

Isn't there something clear and obvious
in God's revelation and work through Jesus Christ that ought to - at a core and essential level - decisively get at that?

To put it another way: Is there something
about prevailing constructs of theological
'system' which allow the projection of
racism, for instance, back upon God?

pia†desideria
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 301

Posted 2/14/2002 4:21 AM (GMT -6)

The fact that there are racists within the church surely illustrates the condition of the human heart, but it also illustrates the heart of God: God will have mercy on whomever God will have mercy on.

Jesus never excluded anyone from fellowship at his table…but if the Father wants to kill the fatted calf for a racist redneck, will we excuse ourselves?

~~~~~~~~~

Politicians, morticians, philistines, homophobes
Skin heads, dead heads, tax evaders, street kids,
Alcoholics, workaholics, wise guys, dim wits,
Blue collars, white collars, war mongers, peaceniks,

Breathe deep, breathe deep the breath of God.

Suicidals, rock idols, shut ins, drop outs,
Friendless, homeless, penniless, depressed,
Presidents, residents, foreigners, and aliens,
Dissidents, feminists, xenophobes, and chauvinists,

Breathe deep, breathe deep the breath of God.

Evolutionists, creationists, perverts, slum lords,
Dead beats, athletes, protestants, and catholics,
Housewives, neophytes, pro-choice, pro-life,
Misogynists, monogamists, philanthropists, blacks and whites,

Breathe deep, breathe deep the breath of God.

Police, obese, lawyers, government,
Sex offenders, tax collectors, war vets, rejects,
Atheists, scientists, racists, sadists,
Biographers, photographers, artists, pornographers,

Breathe deep, breathe deep the breath of God.

Gays and lesbians, demagogues, and thespians,
The disabled, preachers, doctors, and teachers,
Meat eaters, wife beaters, judges, and juries,
Long hairs, no hairs, everybody, everywhere,

Breathe deep, breathe deep the breath of God.

lyrics by Lost Dogs

pia

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“Peace to the one who wrote and to the one who reads and to those who love the Lord in simplicity of heart.” § Melito of Sardis

Edited by - pia†desideria on 02/14/2002 09:22:21 AM

fr.patmos
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/14/2002 7:40 AM (GMT -6)

pia

exactly!!!

To me, the oppositional work of
the Gospel is not to strain out
types of sinners;

It is to defend the gracious gate
you so rightly and grandly celebrate.

So, what about racism, or any other
exclusionary spirit, upon the lips
and within the system of those called
to represent Jesus Christ?

Grace beckons to those of us who bear
deadly hatred and judgement within in our hearts;

but at the same time - on behalf of those listening here who have been
separated/excluded by claims grounded in
our (shared?) theological system - Grace
is a fierce advocate.

To provide just vague suggestion -
by the Spirit, the 'system'
is becoming transformed-Cruciform.
The effect of this, historically,
has been clearer and bolder application
of the Gospel's truth on behalf
of categories of oppressed and marginalized
people.

In the reflexive relationship between
theological truth and Christian witness to that truth; the Spirit of Christ does not
change - but does recover or clarify - what is God's revealed Truth.

pia
you've probably tuned into my conviction
that a reconsideration of God's self-revelation in the atonement is vital in
this regard.

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 2/14/2002 2:03 PM (GMT -6)

Pia: anyone who knows who the Lost Dogs are has great taste! Harold

writerdad
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 2/14/2002 2:06 PM (GMT -6)

Fr.: is there something...yes, we sinful humans...nothing more simple, yet mysterious...those in the church are may not truly be Christian, nor may those outside the church truly non-christian. It never surprises me what the church is capable of, both good or bad. Harold

fr.patmos
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/14/2002 2:31 PM (GMT -6)

Writerdad

yes, the simple, hard, necessary
reminder that we are all human.
I suppose that is the most steady
account for what is not yet in this in-between time. peace

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/15/2002 2:39 AM (GMT -6)

fr.patmos:

quote:
I suppose that is the most steady account for what is not yet in this in-between time. peace

Me thinks that this accounts for much of the problem. We always think of this time (now) as the in-between time. Don't remember much more than the title, but Baba Ram Dass wrote a book, "Be Here Now". I sometimes think about this title when I'm tempted to let my thoughts wander into the future or dwell on the past. I need to continue to live like I have everything I need, TODAY. We have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness, go forward.

I view my life like I stepped into eternity the day I met and gave my life to Jesus.

peace and love , don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

fr.patmos
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/15/2002 4:57 AM (GMT -6)

Recently heard a fine and challenging talk
by Leonard Sweet to a conference of church leaders. His theme and mantra - "Be There!"
Which was grounded theologically and practically in the presence of God via
the Incarnation.

The whole in-between awareness, for me,
guards against an idealism that can get so
hot as to melt down or spill over. Once
the hyperventilating stops, may I rejoin
you in "being there"! :)

yours is a peaceful, present voice,
might-be-don

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/15/2002 5:22 AM (GMT -6)

Idealism is certainly a slippery slope, but in contrast, problems become painfully troublesome as that must be dealt with now. No pushing them off for a better time to deal with them.

Or then again, maybe too much LSD had me thinking Ram Dass was an insightful thinker. Whoops.

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 2/15/2002 5:41 AM (GMT -6)

This is my brief thought. I truly think that some reason that racism looms so large in the church is because we don't have a deep enough concept of SIN, theologically.

Roman 3:9-24
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Now tell me that if THIS ONE PASSAGE weren't more fully understood by the Church that MANY of our racism problems wouldn't just evaporate. Would the religious man from Jesus's parable have been able to look down his nose at the sinner man if he'd have understood this? Would the people who were going to stone the adulterous have lifted a stone in the FIRST place had they understood this? Would Paul have had to call Peter on the carpet for his racist behaviour if PETER had more fully understood and applied this? NO, in all cases! See, the Gospel ain't NOTHING without the concept of sin. And what's happened is that people want to place the universality emphasis on God's fatherhood. And it works out that...

"I'm your brother/sister in the Lord and God loves us all, but there can still be some separations between us"

The old separate, but equal crap. But guess what? This type of thinking doesn't WORK when the universality emphasis is on HUMAN SINFULNESS. It works out like so.

"Man, I'm completely messed up. And so are you. We are BOTH in the same miserable boat. Thank God for his ABUNDANT forgiveness!"

There's no friggin ROOM for separate, but equal...cause we are all equally inadequate. There's NO room for pride. Someone can't say "Well, I'm less messed up than you are" It would be completely stupid! And pondering the universality of sin should ideally lead to one of two basic statements...

"Lord, have mercy!" or "Lord, THANK YOU for mercy!"

and this would apply to everyone! Regardless of race. Color lines evaporate when the true hideousness of the human heart in ALL races is exposed before the light of Truth!

So, what's my main solution? Bring the concept of "sin" back to the consciousness of the Church! Not for the sake of sin itself, but to MAGNIFY the meaning of the Cross and the Gospel!

Man...I'm gettin' that preachin' spirit again!

Love God. Love People. Love Truth. Dedicate your all to that which you love.

fr.patmos
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/15/2002 6:19 AM (GMT -6)

Mephi2k

preach!!! (we'll not persuade you otherwise!)

you are speaking to the essence of
my question.

The trivialization of 'sin' becoming 'sins',
such that the iceberg beneath the surface
is forgotten;

that is one of the two big deals
in my view:

the other, is the question of who God is as God is revealed in the crucifixion of Christ. What is the operative concern of God enacted in the cross? (I say there is only one answer, and one correct answer, which is the Gospel).

When it is profoundly clear and announced
1) who the God of the cross is
2) what this reveals concerning sin

there is no longer any Truth-room for
racist ideology in the system. That is,
when the cross is a reconciling - and not
oppositional - metaphor:

- What God gives - not what God demands
- Down the ladder - not up the ladder
- A self-giving, sin suffering God - not
God putting our punishment on anyone,
other than into God's own being.

God-revealed on the cross eclipses God-hidden in that eternally definitive moment
(Adam and Eve were never intended to take of God-hidden. We are created and redeemed to live by the Word - Love's cruciform self-giving provision - of God-revealed) ; the cross revises, memorializes and glorifies who the One God is, what He has done in the visible Incarnate image of his Son; and then, who and what we are called to be in the image of the Crucified One, who is the revealed image of God in whom the fullness of diety was pleased to dwell.

This reconciling cross banishes hatred,
separatism, judgement, from the house (i.e.
Jesus reveals these spirits do not
truthfully project back upon the Father).

However, the oppositional cross will continue
to provide soil for religious adherents
who go and do likewise.

Do I dare say it this way?:
The essential position of sin is to deny that Jesus on his cross represents and delivers God to us. That denial is the spirit which is either deadly/lawless, or else would utilize the law in order to kill.

Edited by - fr.patmos on 02/15/2002 3:03:15 PM

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 2/15/2002 9:28 AM (GMT -6)

This thread is a balm to my heart.

So often I feel like it's opposite day in Christianityville.

The pervasive, endemic notion held by the vast majority of Christians that we are on some sort of sliding scale of sinfulness, that we are somehow less sinful in our behavior once we accept Jesus into our heart - such that surely someone who's been a Christian for a long time must be less sinful than the new Christian, or the non-Christian, if they are trying hard enough. Of course the only way we can find our place on this sliding scale is if we judge our brother - which Christ unequivocally asks us not to do, and which he gave his life to prevent.

Mephi, I wholeheartedly agree about the Romans passage, and especially this:

quote:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

I believe this to be one of the principle messages of the Sermon on the Mount, and of Jesus' very death on the cross, and yet somehow the Christian preoccupation with sin seems to be on the methods used to enact and enforce and discern the law (the polar opposite of Jesus' message) rather than on the inescapable universality of sin that indicts each and every one of us at every moment. We concern ourselves with what types of sinners may be ordained - as if it is possible that any of us are ever worthy apart from God's incomprehensible mercy. We concern ourselves with how we and our brothers can walk the straight and narrow path, forgetting that Christ's mercy is a river, and when we jump in we and our brother are swept along with the living force of a love that forgives and even forgets the utter worthlessness of our efforts. God's justice is so unfair in its abundant mercy! It flies in the face of all we would accomplish or build or resist. The law exists to humble us, to bring to consciousness our need of God.

On another thread I discussed Romans concerning homosexuality: Romans essay

It confuses me that Christians use the same passages to defend judgment.

Here is another essay, also from one of the homosexuality discussions, and yet applicable to any discussion of sin:

_________________________________________________________________________________________
What did Jesus do about sin? He healed people. There are instances of him saying, “Go and sin no more.” Gently, after showing love, from a position of perfection which only Jesus has.

His anger was saved for people who judged others. The Pharisees were the “good people” of the day. They went to synagogue, and knew their scripture like the back of their hand. They knew how people fell short, and they were not afraid to point it out. Even to Jesus, who broke the Sabbath. The Pharisees knew it was important to point out to people their sin: if they didn’t, who would? Jesus certainly wasn’t--that’s one of the reasons they didn’t trust him. How would people do God’s word, if their sin weren’t pointed out to them? Didn’t God demand it? This is the thinking that made it impossible for the Pharisees to recognize God when they saw him.

What did Jesus do about sin? He died on the cross. Let’s go over that one more time. What did Jesus do about sin? He allowed himself to be nailed through his wrists and his ankles to a wooden cross, to let the full weight of his body hang excruciatingly from his torn flesh for hour after hour while being taunted and jeered, as his body fluids settled and slowly filled his lungs, eventually drowning him in an end to what must have felt like an eternity of suffering. Before he died he begged the Father, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

That’s a compelling statement in any context, but from the mouth of a man who is in the process of being murdered it reverberates through history, it convicts us with its simplicity: its integrity in the mouth of the murdered man grabs us and will not let us go. All of our sin, our woundedness, our failure, and our judgment is dashed on the rock of that scripture.

Did he mean, “Forgive them, because they do not know I am God”? Or did he mean something deeper and exact: “Forgive them, for they know not what they do”?

Jesus ministry was not one of going around and telling individuals what their shortcomings were, lovingly or not. It was mostly stories and parables. He rarely gave a straight answer. Few Christians model their ministry on Jesus. Most model their ministry on Paul, or at least what they think Paul was saying. That seems a little strange to me. Paul was a flawed human being who spent quite a few years murdering Christians. Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus’ most comprehensive discussion of sin takes place in the Sermon on the Mount. In that sermon Jesus erases now and for all time any distinctions we would like to make between one sin and another, between our sin and our brother’s. He unequivocally declares that the angry thought is the same as murder; lust in the heart is the same as adultery. No one escapes. “Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.” He indicts each and every one of us, for all time.

And yet He said, “I come not to condemn the world but to save it.” So his indictment of us is not a judgment. It is simply a fact, from which none of us can flee. He makes it clear in the Sermon on the Mount that we are all full of sin all the time.

How does he save us then? Does he save us by lecturing us on our individual sin? I see no evidence of that in the Gospels, except for the sins of the people like the Pharisees and the Lawyers who thought they were righteous. If you are merely a prostitute or someone who has been married five times or a reviled tax collector, you get no lecture. If you claim in any way to be righteous before God, watch out. He constantly tricks us into knowledge with stories that upset our view of the world. When people want specific advice, He says, “Why ask me to settle your dispute for you? Settle your own dispute.” He frequently answers a question with a question. He does say to rebuke a brother who is sinning against you, but he says to forgive as many times as the brother offends, as long as they repent. (And of course none of the homosexuals I know are sinning “against” me, so I do not see that I have a position to rebuke them from.) Jesus says, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free… …Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” Jesus has already shown us how high the bar is-—how impossible it is for us to claim we are without sin. Here he tells us that if we sin (which he has already shown us we always do) we are slaves to sin. My understanding of a “slave” is that of a person that does not have control over his life. Something outside of him controls him. A slave cannot “choose” to be free. A slave cannot “will” himself out of slavery. A slave cannot free himself from slavery through “good works”. A slave by his own doing has no way out. Jesus tells us we are slaves to sin. This metaphor powerfully suggests that we do not on our own have control over our sin. On the contrary, it is sin that has control over us. From what position do we judge our brother, whom Jesus says is a slave to sin? From what position does our brother judge us? Think about slavery in American history. Does anyone looking back blame or judge the slave for their condition? What does he mean by calling us slaves to sin? If you were to come across an enslaved person, chained to the wall, would you rebuke him? Would you call out the sin of his enslavement? Would you try to talk him out of his slavery? Would you point out to him that he has chains on and if he worked harder at being good he would not be enslaved? But of course, you yourself have sin, and according to Jesus you too are enslaved, so it would seem a little odd to rebuke the slave chained next to you on the wall.

But Jesus holds out hope, “The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” Jesus can do what you cannot. Jesus can set you free. Our slavery is temporary—if we believe in the Son of Man we will be free, simply because Jesus makes it so. But there is an issue here: when are we enslaved, and when are we freed? And what exactly does freedom mean? There are two ways to look at this, and both are true.

Were we enslaved before we knew Jesus, and then were free? Or was humanity enslaved before Jesus lived, and freed through Jesus’ death on the cross? And furthermore, does freedom mean that we have no more sin?

Believing in Jesus Christ makes us free. To the extent that we can “continue in his word” we will know the truth and the truth will set us free. To the extent that we will admit him into our heart is the extent to which we will recognize the truth, and in truth is freedom. Does this freedom mean we will be without sin? No, the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, from a tiny beginning comes a huge, living, growing result. But it happens slowly, in small increments. Knowing Jesus gives us a chance at knowing our own sin, and changing. It does not, however, teach us much about someone else’s sin, because freedom only comes through Jesus Christ, not through human beings. It is not something we can bestow on someone by calling out their sin. The only currency of exchange is love—that is our only contribution to the freedom of others. We are all slaves to sin. We cannot bestow freedom on someone else, when we ourselves are enslaved. Only Jesus can-—He says so. In this sense our freedom starts small and grows.

In another sense our freedom came in a cataclysmic event, and all at once. Jesus took our sin and nailed it to the cross, and with his flesh paid ransom for many. He paid with his life for the salvation of the world, including his murderers. His plea: “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” I think about what Jesus did, and why he did it, and for whom, and it changes everything I think about myself and others, forever. Because this was Jesus response to our sin: to die on the cross. He took the sin of the world on himself, so it could die with him, so we could live. He took the pain of the world on himself, so it could die with him, so we could live. He said, “I come not to judge the world, but to save it.” So how do Christians go from the blood of the cross to the belief that it is their job to help their neighbor see his sin? Jesus asks us, “Are you willing to take up my cross?” What is his cross? His cross was to take on the sin of the world, ON HIMSELF, so that others may live. In what way is our evaluation and weighing of other people’s sin anything like what Jesus did? Jesus took our pain on himself. The only way we can ever make a baby step in that direction is by loving our neighbor and our brother and taking the suffering of their sinfulness on ourselves, without judgment, to allow them to live. How do we take up the cross? How do we take on that sin? By absorbing it without judgment or condemnation or retaliation and through loving people into a freeing relationship with God. Jesus died so we could repent and be forgiven. How do we “die” in this life for a brother? We die by taking ourselves out of the equation-—our judgments and evaluations and egos and resentments and self-righteousness and arrogance and criticism and inspection and pride. We take ourselves out of the equation so we can meet our brother where he is. We take ourselves out of the equation so we can love our brother where he is right now. This does not mean we are indifferent to sin. We are not indifferent to something we are willing to die for. What it means is that we recognize that the only one who has the power to free anyone from being a slave to sin is Jesus Christ himself. What it means is that we are willing to do the only thing that brings Jesus into anyone’s life, and that is love. What it means is that we are willing to take ourselves out of the equation so that Jesus Christ can work in us and through us to love the world. Pointing out someone else’s sin is not love, even if it is said in a soft Christian voice. Love is putting yourself in someone else’s shoes and seeing the world through their eyes. Love is seeing the person the way God sees them, hurting and in need. Love is taking someone else’s pain, and all the sin that flows from that pain, and withstanding it without judgment or condemnation. Love is asking God to forgive your murderers as you are nailed to the cross and drowning in your own blood.

How do we get from Jesus sacrifice to weighing the sins of others?

I search the Ten Commandments for any sign that God wants me to fix my brother, but all I find are commands for me.

I search the Lord’s Prayer for any sign that God wants me to fix my brother, but all I find are my requests for God to do his will and take care of me. The only thing I promise to do is forgive my brother’s trespasses.

I search the Sermon on the Mount for any sign that God wants me to fix my brother, but all I find are commands and warnings for me.

I search Jesus death on the cross for any sign that God wants me to fix my brother, but all I find is love and forgiveness for all.

I know Jesus saves. I just need to get out of the way so he can do it. I need to find within me a fraction of that love and forgiveness so that my heart may be cracked open to let freedom reign.

Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. It’s not as complicated as we make it out to be. But like everyone else, I fail miserably at it, every day.

After church one day we spent the afternoon with friends who are gay. I asked my friend about his job as a social worker working with troubled teens. I asked him if the kids he worked with knew he was gay, and if they ever reacted negatively about it. Oh yes, most of them knew, and he had been called f**got and lots of other things, and he had been spit on, and had several episodes of fairly violent behavior. I was kind of shocked, and I asked him if he continued to work with the kids who did that. Yes, he said, because they’re the kids that need me the most. He was able to take himself out of the equation, and absorb the sin, in order to love and to heal. I wish I could get to where he is. I’ve got my work cut out for me.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Fr.patmos, thank you for your voice. You ask, "Do I dare say it this way?:
The essential position of sin is to deny that Jesus on his cross represents and delivers God to us. That denial is the spirit which is either deadly/lawless, or else would utilize the law in order to kill."

Please, dare to say it this way. It is the paradox that from our fallen perspective we have the most difficulty grasping, that it is forgiveness that fulfills the law, and we desecrate the gift by trying to earn it. The only way to honor the gift is to give it anew. And the amazing wisdom of Christ reveals that love leads to fulfillment of the law like laughter leads to a smile. Can you put your mouth in the shape of a smile and feel joy? Or does a feeling of joy find expression naturally with the head thrown back in laughter, with a smile, and sometimes tears? We falter when we take a dead law and try to breathe life into it, or worse, try to squeeze the living into its coffin. But when we start with life, and love with the love of Christ, in which all righteousness is shown to be a gift, the law naturally begins to reveal itself, through joy and wisdom, from the depths of our sinfulness. The law itself has no life. Through Jesus Christ, his love and sacrifice, we are allowed to live, and we are freed from our bondage so that we may love our brother. We are free to die to ourselves (our righteousness has been decided forever with the gift - if only we believe) so that we may love.

No wonder we are reluctant. It's incomprehensibly loving, sacrificial, undeserved.

Thanks,
Semeia

PS - Great lyrics, Pia!

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Edited by - Semeia on 02/15/2002 2:41:57 PM

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/15/2002 9:56 AM (GMT -6)

Semeia,

Didn't think you would let this one pass by, surprised you held out soooo long.

My buddy in Hebrew 8:13 says:
"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

Edited by - might-be-don on 02/15/2002 2:56:55 PM

lil skeptik
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 7

Posted 2/15/2002 10:07 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
What did Jesus do about sin? He healed people. There are instances of him saying, “Go and sin no more.” Gently, after showing love, from a position of perfection which only Jesus has.

Jesus ravaged his own life in God, taking upon Himself as God sin so that I might live. Jesus didn't pat people on the butt and tell them to do better next time. HE DIED! That's what he did with sin.

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/15/2002 10:13 AM (GMT -6)

one more...
James 2:
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

law that gives freedom = "Love your Neighbor"

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 2/15/2002 6:13 PM (GMT -6)

I am not posting much these days; I'm reading and trying to learn more and keep my mouth shut. But this thread calls me.

It is to my benefit and to my still being alive (by the very grace of God) that God does not condemn me for my lack - serious, hardcore, lack - of love...for others. What's worse is that I can't seem to get further along in what it really means to love as Jesus wants of me and as He Himself loved. Oh, I'm a good Christian, I suppose - I don't drink, swear, this, that and the other - but I'm loveless in so many ways. I have very little depth of love for others who are not, for some reason or another, important to me or involved in that which would bring about love from me ("if sinners love each other, what is that?").

I have slight racism in me, I must admit. I who grew up right near the heart of the Bay Area's most prominent black neighborhood - Oakland, CA. But it is a racism that is one of fear; fear of the unkown, fear of a different attitude, culture; fear of my being hurt. When the style of another is along the lines of my style, I am less threatened, the fear disipates and I am no longer racist. Still, I don't love as I desperately wish.

I am under the impression that it will take a catastrophe (as defined in the world's eye) to bring love out of me. It will probably take the dramatics that only God can bring into someone's life to activate love. I don't know what else to do. I pray. I pray and I pray and I pray to love, to be a minister of love, to love to the point of death, if needed. And yet, I am still so selfish, so self-centered and...afraid of being hurt (no, nothing happened to me as a child. I had a wonderful childhood). I have very little love for the lost. Thank God I at least know this and admit it before Him, asking for the spirit of love. So, I wait.

I'm ashamed. Ashamed after 24 years of being a Christian that I am so loveless. "Why, God?" I ask. When in the hell does it ever turn around and fruit - even a piece of fruit so small that only God could see it - will be seen: love.

I guess I love some, but I surely don't have the slightest idea what loving others is beyond the first 2 inches of a depthless sea.

Do pray for me, please. I'd really like to love more. Really, I would.

(Funny, Semia, as I've read your posts throught the months I've been on this site, you are one whose approach to God and life is foreign to me; you come from a different grain than I. Yet, I can think of no one better of whom I could learn about loving others. You are really amazing, and you inspire me to continue my prayer in faith that love will flow through me one day. Thank you.)

Starkman

might-be-don
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830

Posted 2/16/2002 2:23 AM (GMT -6)

Starkman,

Semeia point is that is where we ALL are at in this world. Press on.

peace and love, don

A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 2/18/2002 7:57 AM (GMT -6)

Don, Thanks so much for those scriptures. I also think of the one about not being able to put new wine in old wineskins, because the old wineskins will break.

As far as holding out so long - I'm trying to not be addicted! But here are all my buddies hanging out on the corner offering me my drug of choice... you should be praying for me, not luring me back with the best stuff!

Starkman, Thank you for being so open. I echo what Don said, and I want to add that in spite of my near obsession with this aspect of the Christian message - to my mind the crux of what it means to "be" a Christian - I do not in any way mean to suggest that I am personally further down that path than anyone else. If anything, I am more challenged in this area than most. I'm half-Italian for crying out loud - I can't make it through the day without poking someone in the eye. What I am certain of is what Christ asks of us in this regard: he asks us to love. What I am less certain of is how to get my brain and body to comply with that command. When someone drives slower than I prefer on the freeway (they’re going the speed limit, for example) I have a lot of trouble turning off the part of my brain that judges them and makes me insanely impatient. I’ll never forget the day I peeled around someone going too slow on the entrance ramp (in my younger days – I’ve matured a bit since then), and a few minutes later I see the flashing lights in my rear-view-mirror. The cop approaches my car, and says, “Are you aware, Miss, that the person you made hit the brakes back there was ME??? Are you in a big hurry, or just distracted?” As I ponder his words – I’m thinking well that’s a trick question for sure – I decide that confession is the best route, “I’m terribly sorry, officer – I agree that that was a terrible piece of driving, the worst. But you know that guy was going really slow.” He shakes his head, “You need to calm down – that guy only needed to be going forty by the time he hit the freeway. You need to chill.” He would have written me a ticket, too, but when he asked me to give him my license I looked down and saw that my purse had fallen to the floor on the passenger side. I said, “You’re not going to shoot me if I reach down to get my purse are you?” He started laughing, and put away his ticket book. “No, I’m not going to shoot you…” (And the unspoken rest of the sentence was: even if you are an idiot!) He was still laughing as he walked back to his car.

Ok, I kind of went off into the weeds on that admittedly trivial example. Although I often think of what goes on on the freeway as such a good metaphor for what goes on in the rest of life. We tend to depersonalize people on the freeway – they are in our way, they’re blocking us, or we’re blocking them. It’s hard to keep in mind the sense that we’re all in this together; we’re all going too fast or too slow, at any given minute. And it’s all relative – it is impossible for us to judge “too fast” or “too slow” because we don’t even know where people are coming from and where they are going. But God knows, and he asks us NOT to judge, but to love.

A less trivial example is the struggle of truly loving one’s own children. What could be easier? And yet every day I find it a struggle to know what the most loving response is to one of my beautiful children. They drive me completely insane. I adore them, and yet they push me to the limit of my patience and understanding and ability. And yet God asks us to love not just our children and our neighbor, but our enemy. Honestly, only in Christ do we stand a chance. What a miracle that God loves us and forgives us.

But Starkman, your post reminds me of another scripture that I have been fascinated with lately.

John 9:39 Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment so that those who do not see may see, and those who do see may become blind.” Some of the Pharisees near him heard this and said to him, “Surely we are not blind, are we?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now that you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.”

Your honest admission that you struggle to love is what God loves to hear! He can work with us in our weakness. It is when we think we have the answers that we become impervious to the Spirit. God yearns for us to realize that we are blind, so that he can reach us. Paul needed to be blinded to recognize the Spirit of God. Knowledge and certainty are not the way to God, but blind humility, even despair, opens our hearts to God. Another favorite scripture, where Paul struggles because of the thorn in his flesh, which he appealed three times to the Lord to remove, and is given this answer:

2 Corinthians 12:9 “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” So I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities for the sake of Christ; for whenever I am weak, then I am strong.

Such is the Christian paradox, that we find strength from weakness, that the world was won out of apparent ignominious defeat (yet victory!) on the cross. Or as Doc said in his brilliant sermon on Sunday – God relentlessly pursues us – incomprehensibly loves us and desires us and relentlessly pursues us – even in our imperfect fallen weakness – he seeks us to be his bride.

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Edited by - Semeia on 02/18/2002 1:03:39 PM

Starkman
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747

Posted 2/20/2002 5:48 PM (GMT -6)

Semia,

Glad you understood! Yeah, it's a real pain in the butt to have to get up daily and STRUGGLE to love, if only by praying and thinking it through to love, you know. Can't wait to grow in it!!! (oh, I am, I suppose, but being a meloncholy, well, the glass is always half empty!)

For loving,

Starkman

Springs
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636

Posted 2/28/2002 6:37 PM (GMT -6)

A little meloncholy? Sheesh, it was like reading the journal of the life of one of those old-time righteous saints who already shine like stars yet long with all their being to press in further.

It was inspiring and stirring, I'm with Semeia thanks for sharing.

Oh and Semeia, I love the cop story. too funny.

Springs

"To give a man back his heart is the hardest mission on earth" - From the movie Michael.

"Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight." -Bruce Cockburn

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 3/1/2002 2:02 AM (GMT -6)

Fr. Patmos asks:

quote:
Is there something in our theological
system - something not spoken, mispoken;
something over or under emphasized - which allows the immune residence of racism within the system?

Well, since this is what I'm currently struggling with:

What about the racism and sexism in our holy texts? Might that contribute to it?

Pax,
Miss E

Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 3/1/2002 3:15 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Fr. Patmos asks:

quote:
Is there something in our theological
system - something not spoken, mispoken;
something over or under emphasized - which allows the immune residence of racism within the system?

Well, since this is what I'm currently struggling with:

What about the racism and sexism in our holy texts? Might that contribute to it?

Pax,
Miss E

I think so—when such texts are declared to be prescriptive for all time, and the authority of the Bible is used to back up such claims. This misapplication of supposed timeless truths is what leads some people to dismiss the text in righteous indignation, and others to cling to it dogmatically and try to force it on others. However, even the ten commandments didn’t stay the same—compare the places where they are repeated (don’t have that handy right now). Ancient Israel didn’t seem to have a problem with this. Why do we?

Electra

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“Canst thou bind the sweet influences of the Pleiades?” § Job 38:31

Edited by - Electra on 03/01/2002 08:17:21 AM

Empiress
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 3/1/2002 3:27 AM (GMT -6)

Electra said:

quote:
This misapplication of supposed timeless truths is what leads some people to dismiss the text in righteous indignation, and others to cling to it dogmatically and try to force it on others. However, even the ten commandments didn’t stay the same—compare the places where they are repeated (don’t have that handy right now). Ancient Israel didn’t seem to have a problem with this. Why do we?

Hi there Electra, I haven't "met" you yet. *waves*

I realize that the ancient Hebrew mind did not struggle with seeming contradictions the way westerners do. But the Israelites did see the law as permanent and binding...which is why there was such a fuss when Jesus started breaking the OT laws in the Gospels (sabbath, food laws, etc.) Could you explain what you mean further? Are you saying we should feel freed to "let go" of certain texts and/or ignore them? What are you saying?

Thanks,
Miss E

rb1963b
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93

Posted 3/1/2002 2:00 PM (GMT -6)

"there is no longer any Truth-room for
racist ideology in the system."

Show me where it is sin to teach that each race should marry within that race. You can't. God STILL makes distinction between Jew and Gentile. Paul states that when the NATION ISRAEL comes to believe in Christ that they will be GRAFT BACK IN, that they are the NATURAL BRANCHES and that gentiles are WILD BRANCHES. Rhetoric is a great tool to use on those that you disagree with but have no evidence to back it up.

NOTICE throughout this discussion it is "perceived" that racism = hate. PROVE THAT TO BE A TRUTH. You can't. If there is one "racist" that loves another "race" enough to actually go to them and do what God told ALL CHRISTIANS to do, and that is to GO AND TELL. We are to be "living epistles" to others so that they can find Jesus and believe. OH, but that don't count. Since MAN teaches (today) that seperation of the races is WRONG, then it MUST be sin. MAN also teaches that abortion is NOT wrong, that DRINKING ALCOHOL is OK, that being "fundamental" is wrong, that Homosexuals are not "sinning".
This issue is thought of in an expedient way, and until it is studied out IN SCRIPTURE, it will be a cause of strife.

Another thing, we ARE all sinners, BUT, Paul tells us to "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." That is the salvation of our hearts and minds, not our spirit. It is what we are to do while HERE. He constantly tells his readers things like "he who stole, steal no more", "Whatsoever you see me do, you do also.", "be ye followers of God".
We are so MAN CENTERED, we need to be GOD CENTERED. We need to do what HE wants us to do FIRST instead of LAST or when it is convenient. What does it say that Jesus had on sinners? Compassion. Yet, WE, do not even have compassion for one another. We are so self centered, we are occupied with self, so much so that manyof us do not notice anything going on around us, we jump to conclusions before concidering the WHOLE matter. We are SELF RIGHTEOUS when we should be holding others in more prominance than ourselves. How Christ like are we? Not much. Although we Christians HAVE ARRIVED in salvation we should count ourselves as having NOT ATTAINED. We should be constantly seeking Fathers help in our lives instead of depending on ourselves until we mess up so bad that we finally go to Father for help. That was NOT what Jesus did, he was in constantly in touch with our Father for help and in knowing what to do.
Funny thing about the Golden Rule. It tells us about 3 people, first our relationship with God, then our relationship with others, then our relationship with ourselves.

DeVern Fromke captures this idea in his book "God's Ultimate Purpose". It is a good read.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 3/2/2002 5:55 AM (GMT -6)

I've moved over here from the MLK thread.

quote:
rb1963b
Posted - 03/01/2002:7:00:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"there is no longer any Truth-room for
racist ideology in the system."

Show me where it is sin to teach that each race should marry within that race. You can't. God STILL makes distinction between Jew and Gentile. Paul states that when the NATION ISRAEL comes to believe in Christ that they will be GRAFT BACK IN, that they are the NATURAL BRANCHES and that gentiles are WILD BRANCHES. Rhetoric is a great tool to use on those that you disagree with but have no evidence to back it up.

NOTICE throughout this discussion it is "perceived" that racism = hate. PROVE THAT TO BE A TRUTH. You can't. If there is one "racist" that loves another "race" enough to actually go to them and do what God told ALL CHRISTIANS to do, and that is to GO AND TELL. We are to be "living epistles" to others so that they can find Jesus and believe.

Many here would correct you when they perceive you as limiting "living epistles" to sharing the oratory of the salvation message. Please stake out more turf for yourself by sharing examples of love for those of other "races" beyond just "witnessing". True witness is in behavior also. (And there is a very strong connection between martyr and witness.)

Saying that one "loves another "race" enough to actually go to them" is good. Living among them, and treating them as brothers and sisters, and being the same to them. Show us that. Stake out that turf. Other wise when you speak of separation we can only assume (after all this time) that it means more than just keeping chromisoms separate. I, for one, would not try to rush you on the marriage thing. Lets start small. "Show us your faith" James might say. So do we!

36 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 6:07 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual