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Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 3/10/2002 11:16 AM (GMT -6)

You have heard that it was said:

No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off [e.g. eunuchs] shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. Those born of an illicit union [e.g. Jesus] shall not be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of their descendants shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. No Ammonite or Moabite [e.g. Ruth, David’s great-grandmother] shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of their descendants shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord…You shall never promote their welfare or their prosperity as long as you live. (Deut. 23:1ff.)

But Isaiah said unto you:

Do not let the foreigner joined to the Lord say,
     ‘The Lord will surely separate me from his people’;
and do not let the eunuch say,
     ‘I am just a dry tree.’
For thus says the Lord:
To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths,
     who choose the things that please me
     and hold fast to my covenant,
I will give, in my house and within my walls,
     a monument and a name
     better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
     that shall not be cut off.
And the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
     to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord,
     and to be his servants,
all who keep the sabbath, and do not profane it,
     and hold fast to my covenant—
these will I bring to my holy mountain,
     and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices
     will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
     for all peoples.
Thus says the Lord God,
     who gathers the outcasts of Israel,
I will gather others to them
     besides those already gathered. (Isa. 56:3ff.)

Electra

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name.” § Isa. 40:26

Edited by - Electra on 03/10/2002 4:17:54 PM

Seymour
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 105

Posted 3/11/2002 11:41 AM (GMT -6)

Very nice very nice.

So...what do you think it means?

"When Zarathustra had spoken these words he beheld the people again and was silent. 'There they stand,' he said to his heart; 'there they laugh. They do not understand me; I am not the mouth for these ears."

Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 3/18/2002 5:28 AM (GMT -6)

You have heard that it was said:

No one of your offspring throughout the generations who has a blemish may approach to offer the food of his God. For no one who has a blemish shall draw near, no one who is blind or lame, or one who has a mutilated face or a limb too long, or one who has a broken foot or a broken hand, or a hunchback, or a dwarf, or a man with a blemish in his eyes or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles. (Lev. 21:17–22)

But Micah said unto you:

On that day, says the Lord,
     I will assemble the lame
and gather those whom I have afflicted.
The lame I will make the remnant,
     and those who were cast off, a strong nation;
and the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion
     now and forevermore. (Micah 4:6–7)

Electra

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“The star truly is high in the sky, is just as high in the sky although, reflected in the sea, it seems to lie far under the earth.” § Søren Kierkegaard

Seymour
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 105

Posted 3/18/2002 9:44 PM (GMT -6)

Electra
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611

Posted 3/19/2002 4:02 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Very nice very nice.

So...what do you think it means?

"When Zarathustra had spoken these words he beheld the people again and was silent. 'There they stand,' he said to his heart; 'there they laugh. They do not understand me; I am not the mouth for these ears."

I’m not sure, but it seems like good news… Electra

~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
“The star truly is high in the sky, is just as high in the sky although, reflected in the sea, it seems to lie far under the earth.” § Søren Kierkegaard

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 3/22/2002 6:41 AM (GMT -6)

Electra, I find this so interesting.

Look:

On that day, says the Lord,
I will assemble the lame
and gather those whom I have afflicted.

And this:

John 9

As he walked along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God's works might be revealed in him."

It would certainly appear that Satan is not the author of these afflictions. And then we have Job, afflicted by Satan only by God's authority - God rubber stamping a little theology/faith experiment involving the torture of his just-livin-life-trying-to-do-the-best-he-can servant Job.

What are we to make of this?

My own take is that we can never know why we are afflicted, or why our brother is afflicted, because sometimes God himself offers us the opportunity for suffering, so that his works may be made manifest in us. Just as he offered Jesus the opportunity for suffering and death on the cross. Jesus suffered the evil of those around him, took their evil upon himself, absorbed it without retribution. Why? So that the evildoers might be forgiven.

If only we can grasp that for a moment.

In our time homosexuals are among the afflicted and rejected. Is their difference meant as a blessing to us? Is their affliction from God, so that his works may be made manifest? If so, how grave is the error of the church, which has cast out the outcast?

We have no miracle power to heal the blind with mud as Jesus did. But we can love them without questioning the origin of their affliction. We have no miracle power to heal the homosexual. But we can love them with all our heart and soul, trusting that God's work may be made manifest wherever suffering is met with love.

The disciples assumed that affliction is the result of sin. Jesus doesn't merely refute this, but he goes so far as to connect the affliction to God’s purpose. He also does not say that this man was born blind because Satan was working behind the scenes. He says, “[This man] was born blind so that God's works might be revealed in him." In other words: God made him that way, for the purpose of revelation.

How upsetting to all our theodocies, to think about this. Certainly we cannot conclude from this that all affliction in the world is caused by God? What can we say?

How about, “Do not judge. The afflicted may be messengers. Our own afflictions may be an opportunity God is giving us to allow him to be revealed in us.”

My husband (Iconoclast) had an experience a few years ago while we were up north vacationing. He had gone out on a little boat with the kids, to the far side of the lake to fish. He was tying the line to the hook for one of the kids, and as he yanked the end of it to pull it tight, the hooked slipped from between his thumb and finger and the barbed razor-sharp metal was driven into the fleshy tip of his finger, past the barb. His unthinking instinct was to try to pull it out, but of course the barb stopped it, and it hurt like hell. The only way that hook was coming out was if it was pushed forward through the nerve-laden tip of his finger. His finger was already starting to swell, and he realized that if he tried to boat back to the cabin first that it would be too late, and he would have to drive into town and have the hook surgically removed at the emergency room. The kids were crying. So he took his pliers/wire cutters (that he was fortunate enough to have remembered) and cut off the thicker part of the dull end of the hook. He then began pushing the hook through his fingertip. It was much more difficult than he thought it would be, and excruciatingly painful. He had to use the full weight of his body to push this thing through. He was shaking and almost passed out. The kids were horrified, and our oldest daughter kept saying, “Daddy, Daddy, I wish it was me… I wish it was me that this was happening to and not you…” There was a point at which he didn’t think he could do it, it was so horribly painful, but he knew that getting in to town would be an all day ordeal, so with the weight of his body, and the kids crying, he pushed it through, just missing his fingernail.

When the boat came puttering into the marina, I could tell right away that something was wrong. My husband looked really, really pale – and the kids couldn’t wait to tell me about the sandal that had fallen in that they had to fish for and reel in, the big Northern that had gotten away, and the biggest news: that Daddy had hooked his finger and had to push the hook through.

That night he dreamed that his whole body was hooked, and he had to push it through. When he woke up he told me that he had a premonition that this experience was a precursor to something much worse – that it was a test that he had passed, but that it was a foreshadowing of something much worse to come. He was filled with dread at the thought. I tried to comfort him, and dismiss the fears as a normal shock reaction to trauma. But he was convinced, and depressed and somewhat anxious about it. He said, “I know I’m going to be called upon to use this experience in the future, and that I’m going to remember that I was able to push the hook through, but I am afraid of what the hook is going to be the next time. I can just feel that it is going to be something bad.”

And something bad did happen – something excruciating and prolonged – one of the most difficult experiences of his life. It was a series of events, taking place over the course of a year, which felt like his dream, where his entire body was pierced by this giant hook, and he had to push it through. And through it all he kept thinking of how he had pushed that hook through the tip of his finger, with fear and pain and determination. Kneeling in prayer in the middle of the night, he would think of the hook, and remember the relief at the end, and the meaning that the experience held for him. And the present situation required that he absorb the pain without retribution.

During the suffering of this year he came to see his experience with the hook as a profound blessing and gift.

There are some hooks that don’t come out. Thorns in the flesh. They are deep and painful and permanent. Most of the blind will never see. Most gays will never change. Sometimes people come to see their thorns as blessings. There are some deaf people who could be made to hear with the new technology of Cochlear implants – and they choose not to, because they have come to “see” their deafness, and the world they inhabit, as a blessing. Many people who have Down’s Syndrome children say that their life has been incalculably enriched by these simple, cheerful, children – and what appeared at first to be a tragedy became a blessing.

On that day, says the Lord,
I will assemble the lame
and gather those whom I have afflicted.

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God's works might be revealed in him."

Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

Mephi2K
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713

Posted 3/22/2002 6:52 AM (GMT -6)

Yo, I really dug that, Semeia. Cool stuff.

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 3/24/2002 8:02 PM (GMT -6)

Your a great story-teller Semeia. I was wincing!!! Great analogy. Mind if I preach it some time?

After that, it seems pedantic to point this out. But alas...

In John 9, the words "this happened so" are not in the original Greek. The Greek just has "but let the glory of God be manifested." I discuss this at length in God at War. Heres the NIV concordance on the passage (if it copies right to this board).

Also, I think the "Lord afflicts" passages have to balanced by the teachings of the Gospels where Satan IS consistently construed as "the afflicter." This doesn't undermine your point that the Lord could also, in other cases be the afflicter. But it balances it out.

Or, one could perhaps understand the "Lord afflicts" passages in the sense that the Old Testament is inclined to trace everything back to God as the sovereign Creator who, like an ancient potentate, is responsible for (but not guilty for) everything his subjects do.

From other postings

I don't think you disagree with this, except perhaps in my emphasis. I know you certainly don't want to ascribe EVERY affliction to God -- but then even YOU are doing "theodicy."

All this being said, I think I concur with the general spirit of your post about ministering to those afflicted.

Now, as to how to reconcile the passages Electra pointed out, that is more difficult. Maybe God just changed his mind

. I'd have to research it out, which I don't have time at the moment to do. But it IS a very good question.

Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Edited by - GregBoyd on 03/25/2002 01:04:13 AM

trosie
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550

Posted 3/25/2002 1:12 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
On that day, says the Lord,
I will assemble the lame
and gather those whom I have afflicted.
The lame I will make the remnant,
and those who were cast off, a strong nation;
and the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion
now and forevermore. (Micah 4:6–7)

To me this speaks GRACE. What I find amazing is that God allows affliction -- kind of sounds like the thorn in the flesh that Paul speaks about.

quote:
We have no miracle power to heal the blind with mud as Jesus did. But we can love them without questioning the origin of their affliction. We have no miracle power to heal the homosexual. But we can love them with all our heart and soul, trusting that God's work may be made manifest wherever suffering is met with love

Semeia, it's not entirely true that we have NO miracle power. We are empowered with the Holy Spirit to do even greater works than Jesus performed. However, I agree that God's love through us can meet any suffering.

I agree with Doc, I winced when I read what you wrote. OUCH! I almost could feel the pain that Iconoclast felt!

trosie

Semeia
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522

Posted 3/26/2002 3:36 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks Mephi and Doc.

Doc, I thought you would mismatch where you did, and that's fine. I think we agree in overall spirit. Whether or not the scripture reads "this happened so" does not change the impact of the scripture for me. (I find plenty of evidence elsewhere - Job, for example - for God sometimes being the afflicter.) What I find compelling is that the disciples assumed that the blindness came from someone's sin. This tells us a lot about perceptions of sin at that time. We would be appalled today if someone assumed blindness came from sin. And yet even as we learn more about homosexuality, and its genetic and early sexual development, we continue to talk as if this is something people can choose. (Simply because they have the choice of whether or not to ever have sex.) To me this is quite as abhorrent as assuming that people are born blind because of sin.

But I will continue these thoughts eventually on the other thread.

And feel free to use anything I write in a sermon. Unless you were using it to disagree with - NEVER do that!

Trosie - what I said was that we had no miracle power to heal the blind with mud, or to heal the homosexual. Is it possible that one in a million might be healed by a miracle? Sure. But I think you see the general point.

Thanks,
Semeia

"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard

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