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beachgirl
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 3/16/2002 6:07 AM (GMT -6) |   | my friend and i were talking about how homosexuality although not new has been getting much more exposure and has increasingly gained acceptance in the media. with the rise in popularity of such shows as Will & Grace and then with Rosie O'Donnell "coming out" and then young girls kissing on the show "Once and Again", how are we as Christians to respond to the onslaught? i am so afraid of the numbness that is going to set in. how do we take a stand? people like Diane Sayer on ABC vehemently attack conservative for believing it's wrong and such is the story with the media in general.
"Relying on God has to begin all over again every day as if nothing had yet been done..." C.S. Lewis
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 3/16/2002 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh...I have so refrained from commenting on these homosexuality threads lest my temper gets the better of me, but I want to say something to this.
Why in the world do Christians think it is their responsibility to try and convince the secular, unbelieving world that they are wrong in their choice of morals or lifestyle? (as if that would have ANY effect!) It seems obvious that Christians or any other religious or specialty group has no right and NO business doing this. These folks are not Christians, do not believe the Bible, and have no part in what Christians believe. If and when we interact with the secular world it should be to proclaim the love of God...not chastise an unbelieving society for that which goes against conservative Christians' conventions and sexual mores. Please. This type of behavior will accomplish nothing. The only reason (it seems) Christians want to confront these issues in the secular world is because it makes THEM uncomfortable. Well, deal with it. Not everyone is a Christian and not everyone is going to live the way YOU would like them too. If secular TV/media bothers you, don't watch it.
Sorry to sound so grumpy...but grrrr this gets to me. This is a very misplaced concern...why not figure out how to love and serve people more effectively??? That would evoke more important change in our world anyway.
~E
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whasssuuuppp
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 210
| Posted 3/16/2002 10:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Don't have much to add to the topic specifically, but I did see the show you're referring to--PrimeTime on ABC last Thursday night with Diane Sawyer. I personally thought it was a really interesting show and didn't think Sawyer was at all "vehemently" attacking conservatives. On the contrary, I thought she did her best to professionally interview a "conservative Christian" politician (Randy Ball from the Florida state legislature) who, in my opinion (just my opinion, you can disagree with me!) gave flat and unconvincing answers to SOME (not all, just some) very important questions.
In addition, he sprinkled his rhetoric with all sorts of assumptions about other things too--stating that children need to be raised by both a mom and a dad so that they can see both the woman's place in the family (a quiet, restrained person, submitted to her husband's headship role, of course) and the man's role in the family as the daring, adventurous parent who pushes the kids to try new things, and so on. It was embarassing.
When they have to get a Christian viewpoint for a show, why do they always have to pick someone from the Christian coalition/moral majority camp?
Oh, and miss E., I agree. Thank you.
********************
Edited by - whasssuuuppp on 03/16/2002 3:18:31 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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beachgirl
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 3/16/2002 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | okay, you guys are totally misunderstanding my view on this. i would not at all lump myself into the camp of the judgmental extreme fundamentalists where homosexuality is concerned. i am just trying to figure out how to deal with homosexuality in postmodern culture. i thought it a fair question. i agree that i should love God, love people, but i do think there are situations where you have to take a stand on something and it seems that more and more that people who say that homosexuality is wrong are judged and labeled close minded conservatives. i'm not into getting in people's faces and denouncing individuals who are gay. and i am very aware that not everyone is a christian. i'm just someone who is waking up to the world i'm in and my heart breaks for the lost. i am wanting to know how to deal with it myself. fine if you have figured it out for yourself. that's wonderful. but different people have different experiences and come from different backgrounds.
"Relying on God has to begin all over again every day as if nothing had yet been done..." C.S. Lewis
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 3/16/2002 5:44 PM (GMT -6) | | I agree with you all that LOVE needs to be the message that we Christians are interested in conveying to the world.
I can totally appreciate and understand your concerns, beachgirl. It's tough at times to know the right response. As far as television goes, if I don't like what I'm watching I turn the channel or turn it off.
trosie 
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 3/16/2002 5:51 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks beachgirl...I know we're all trying to figure this complicated faith-in-the-world thing together.
Blessings,
~E
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rb1963b
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 3/17/2002 4:00 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, there you have it. We have come a long way from "You hate me because I tell you the truth." to "Well, let's just accept everything that the world says is right, hey, maybe we can find a verse or two that seems to support this, take a few out of context, and ease our minds about some more sin."
We no longer have to go into the world and "tell". We no longer have to convince the sinners of their sin. We no longer have to confront evil, because that would be "wrong" for us to do. All we have to do is "love everybody". Telling a lost and dying world it needs to believe in Jesus and STOP the sinning is now not in vogue IN THE CHURCH, although it never was in the world.
Nah, all we have to do is start new programs, have exercise classes, put on plays with questionable "lines" and words, and they will come. Seems just the opposite of what it is suppose to be, but hey, we can retranslate phrases "DYNAMICALLY" to make it ok.
Beachgirl, don't let these neo-christians defeat your newborn zeal to stop the spread of sin in the world. Write the show. Tell your friends that "Rosie" is a freak, and that she should NOT be allowed to raise children to accept her freakish behavior. You use words such as DYKE, queer, etc. when discribing her devience, hey, they don't mind offending your prudence.
Just because modern society accepts behavior that wasn't just a few short decades ago, doesn't mean that it is now right and just.
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goodgrl
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 5
| Posted 3/17/2002 5:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Beachgirl, I also have concerns about society, especially our children, becoming numb to the sin of homosexuality. Desensitizing happens all the time and is now happening with homosexuality. What used to be unacceptable and grotesque to most people, is now being aired on most television stations. Not unlike the sin of adultery. It is on every station, probably almost every hour. Sad.
I do not think that we need to call anyone by the slanderous names suggested in a previous post. That would grieve the heart of God just like any other sin does.
So... where do we begin?
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hope
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 3/17/2002 11:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi.
Here goes. I have been a christian my whole life, raised in a Christian home by loving Christian parents. This is the same home that my brother was raised in. 10 years ago when he was in his mid twenties he told me that he is gay. My whole safe secure little Christian world was shattered. But you know what? After I processed through all of it, it didn't change one thing I felt about my brother because I KNOW him. He is loving, kindhearted, brilliant, insightful, strong, just a wonderful person. What were my choices? Turn my back on him and call him deviant?? He is my BROTHER. Over the years he has confided in me that he spent years praying that God would change him, weeping as a pre-teen, and begging to feel normal. My parents went through denial, self doubting, and questioning their parenting. Was it a domineering mother that was to blame? No way. Was it an uninvolved, cold father? No way. I can certainly attest to my parents Godliness, their desire to instill values and morals in their children. My brother is a person. He is someone that I love.
My brother could never reconcile his desire to serve God and these issues. Nor could he find love from those he was told knew the one and only way(us Christians). He contemplated suicide at one point because of the difficulties this posed for him.
About a two years ago I started fervently praying for his salvation. I cried out to God to not even allow him to sleep at night until he wrestled with God and his salvation. Come to find out later, it was around this time that he did start wrestling with God, and would walk into church in his neighborhood and just sit there and weep, asking God to reveal Himself. After several visits to the church and many sleepless nights, he turned his life over to God and wept openly before Him. He then told me that he has a complete peace that has consumed his life in that he has a relationship with Jesus Christ. Is my brother still Gay? Yes. Is he still in a homosexual relationship? Yes. So what then? I have left it in God's hands. I know I don't have all of the answers, nor do I understand how this could have happened in our family! But I will continue to show my brother Christ's love for him, and I will never turn my back on him.
But here's the real kicker! Try being my 60 year old parents in "Christian" circles where all of theses "loving" Christians are gay bashing, and talking about how disgusting this is, and how gays are "in your face" and how AIDS is the judgement for homosexuality....and on and on and on! My parents are not open about my brother, and he lives out of state which has made this easier to keep a secret for them. But I just see it on my mom's face. The anguish after hearing other Christians talk about homosexuality. It is pure torture for them. Homosexuality is definitely thought of as a "safe" topic to judge and be downright rotten about because no one in our nice tight little Christian circles would ever be dealing with that! Right? WRONG.
I don't share this often. It has been extremely painful and life changing for my family. But you know what? I could tell my non christian friends so much easier than I could ever share this with most people in the Christian community.
I just wanted to offer some insight from a Christian on the inside of this issue. Please think about how you talk about this subject around other people. You never know who you could be hurting. Gay people do walk into churches(and guess what you would never in a million years guess that my brother could be gay!),and this may be their last stop before killing themselves because they can't make sense out of who they are. Just think about it.
1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
Thank you E, and Whasssuuuppp, You're like a refreshing drink of water in a dry thirsty land!!! Who heard Doc's sermon this weekend? His message of love spoke to the very core of issues like this.
Hope
P.s. Also to Beachgirl, I don't believe I misunderstood the Spirit in which you intended this post, I believe you are very sincere, it's just that from my viewpoint it isn't up to us to try to change people, or "take a stand"(which to me often means taking a stand AGAINST others) other than to stand on our firm foundation we have in Christ, and not become issue pushers, but rather doers of the word, who are living out Christ's love to everyone. I hope you can see what I am trying to say? Bless you.
Edited by - hope on 03/30/2002 1:59:24 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/17/2002 1:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc's sermon was awesome today.
We can either seek to be right or to love.
We can either be judgers of the law or doers of the law.
We can either be against others or for others.
Homosexuality is the key topic today that challenges us Christians at our very core: are we judgers of the law or doers of the law?
As Christians we know what right and wrong are: we have the word of God. We also know how to do what is right: we know what Jesus did, he laid down his life for us and asked God to forgive us at the exact moment that we were torturing him.
I believe that this is the EXACT struggle that is ours to overcome: to KNOW that someone else is doing wrong and to STILL be a doer of the law rather than a judge. To be completely and totally FOR the other person as though they were your own brother (And thank you for that testimony hope, it is inspiring to see what Love does).
This struggle starts within ourselves. How many of us still keep score on how "good" we are? How many of us judge ourselves to be better or worse Christians based on how well we follow the law? Do any of us notice this "judger" within us, this "accuser". The accuser within us doles out points and takes points away. It keeps score either for or against (ourselves and others). And so, if we do keep score this way, where are we really getting our life from? From God? Or from our "Accuser"? From God? Or from "ha-satan"?
thanks,
Iconoclast
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Kyle Essary
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 3/17/2002 1:18 PM (GMT -6) | | I think that beachgirls point is being missed. It isn't that we should try to change people, but more the question of whether or not we should allow other CHRISTIANS to become numb to societys downfalls.
I think it is a very slippery slope. We should stand against things which are "unbiblical," but we need to be careful. We don't want to overplay an issue so much that we turn people away. I mean, what is truly more important, building a relationship with a homosexual through love, or actively telling them how wrong they are? Option A builds a good relationship, Option B turns them off, even if done with good intent.
Kyle Essary
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Semeia
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 3/17/2002 1:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Hope said:
I just wanted to offer some insight from a Christian on the inside of this issue. Please think about how you talk about this subject around other people. You never know who you could be hurting. Gay people do walk into churches(and guess what you would never in a million years guess that my brother could be gay!),and this may be their last stop before killing themselves because they can't make sense out of who they are. Just think about it.
Semeia:
Thank you, Hope. Well said.
Two of my sisters are gay, and many friends over the years. I wasn't going to get on this thread, because I feel like I have been beating my head against the wall concerning this issue on this board - but I couldn't let your words go by without offering a supportive amen.
God asks us not to judge our brother, period. The people I know who are gay believe in their hearts that God made them that way. And anyone who has grown up next to a gay sibling, and watched the carefree, sparkling child hit puberty in utter confusion, knows that this is not a "lifestyle choice" made out of some kind of sinful lust. This is despair. This is the realization that you are different in a way that makes people hate you. This is the realization that your hormonal, chemical, neural sexual make-up is different, and all the shame and prayers in the world cannot change it. At a time when many people discover their future with delight - the gay child enters puberty with fear, shame, secrecy, and despair.
And they get no help from the church. It is the church they are hiding from.
Praise God for shows like Will and Grace... one of the all out funniest shows on tv. My apologies to anyone whom that offends... but God bless such shows. Homosexuality isn't contagious. No one is going to catch homosexuality by watching two men kiss on tv. Think about it: do you feel gay urges when you see gay characters on tv? It simply doesn't work that way. The prevailing scientific view today is that sexual identity is formed by the age of five. Television shows with gay characters reflect the fact that somewhere between 3 and 7 percent of the population is gay.
Praise God for Rosie O'Donnell. God bless her courage and integrity and honesty. The only way that the world will change on this issue is when Christians see the human face - when they truly seek to understand and refuse to judge. Rosie came out about her sexuality because of the case in Florida in which a foster child is about to be taken away from the only parents he has ever known, because they are gay. I know gay couples who are raising children. Their children are well-adjusted, normal kids. The most serious problem they face as children of gay parents is prejudice from peers and adults.
Some years ago I was listening to a beautiful sermon, but at some point homosexuality was brought up, included in a typical "list of sins", something like this: "adulterers, thieves, murderers, homosexuals..." I immediately stiffened at the judgment, and I noticed that several people in front of me got up and left at that point. I wondered to myself if they were gay, because I thought, if I was gay I would leave. It just so happened that after church that day we were having lunch at the home of some gay friends. I told my friend about the sermon, and my frustration, and my concern for the people who left. What he said to me I will never forget:
He said, "Don't worry about the grown-ups. They've dealt with this kind of judgment their whole life, and they have survived. They know how to deal with it and move on. Worry about the fourteen-year-old boy in the audience, who six months from now is going to kill himself, because he's gay and he knows it's never going to be ok."
My job description as a Christian is quite simple: love God with all my heart, and love my neighbor as myself. My sin is a log, my brother's sin is a speck. How do I know that? Because Jesus tells me so, in unambiguous terms: Log vs Speck. My own sin keeps me from even seeing my brother's sin. If I could see my brother with God's eyes, I would see that his sin is only a speck, and I would love him with the love of the Father.
Trying to fix my brother tends to get in the way of loving him. What is utterly fascinating to me is that in my 42 years of life I have discovered that it is only when I stop trying to fix my brother that I truly see him, and love him. And when I let go of that need I suddenly see that beautiful center that is not broken, that has never been broken, that God made and loves, now and for eternity. And what I get from all this letting go is the freedom to love and be loved. All eternity spins on that axis, at the center of which is the cross.
Die to live. Why? For love.
Thanks,
Semeia
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Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363
| Posted 3/17/2002 2:00 PM (GMT -6) | | I give thanks today for loving, sincere people like you Hope...for your testimony and for the life of your brother.
I give thanks for the gracious, articulate words of Semeia.
Thank you so much.
I wish I could've heard Doc's sermon...it sounds like it was beautiful.
Blessings to you all,
~E
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/17/2002 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | Kyle Essary
I think that beachgirls point is being missed. It isn't that we should try to change people, but more the question of whether or not we should allow other CHRISTIANS to become numb to societys downfalls.
I think it is a very slippery slope. We should stand against things which are "unbiblical," but we need to be careful. We don't want to overplay an issue so much that we turn people away.
Iconoclast
I think we should do the most radical things we can think of to change people. And I couldn't agree more that we should sound the wake-up call to all christians to never, ever become numb to society's downfalls. If us Christians are not the light of the world, who will be? If we have lost our saltiness, we will be trampled under foot. And that is exactly what is happening to us with this issue.
We should take a stand and forget about being careful. Jesus wasn't careful. He was the most radical, sold-out force to ever hit our planet.
So, let’s ask ourselves, What Would Jesus Do? But maybe first we should ask ourselves, “in this societal interplay, who are the Pharisees and who are the ‘sinners’ (tax collectors, prostitutes, and so on)?”
Would Jesus take a stand against homosexuality? Or would he go to their houses and have dinner?
And why did Jesus go after the Pharisees? They were the ones taking stands against “unbiblical” behavior. It’s actually kind of weird isn’t it? And yet Jesus took an even stronger stand against sin than they did. He said that even lust in your heart was the same as adultery. Shoot, saying “thou fool” to your brother puts you in danger of hellfire. And who doesn’t do that?!?!
It seems to me that the stand Jesus took was:
One) We are all sinners. Even our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Two) Judge not lest ye be judged. We are all hypocrites.
Three) Love God, Love One Another
And how will people know that we are Christians?
By the societal stands we take?
By our correct theology?
By our love?
I think the part of the Christian church that is taking a stand against homosexuality (versus all us sinners in general) is acting Pharisaical. I think Jesus today would call us hypocrites just like he did the Pharisees over “corban”. I think he would say this:
“You condemn homosexuals and kick them out of your synagogues while you allow divorce and remarriage for any reason. You hypocrites, for your own you have compassion but those who are foreigners among you, you despise. Do you not know…”
beachgirl
i am so afraid of the numbness that is going to set in. how do we take a stand?
Iconoclast
This is a tough issue. We are called to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect and yet we are told not to judge lest we be judged. Then we are told to “judge all things.” My take:
We don’t need to take a stand on this issue. To take a stand on this issue, as a specific issue, presupposes that we are saved by works and NOT by faith. It presupposes that we are saved by being “good”. It fundamentally goes against Jesus’ message. Now, we are indeed required to take a stand against sin. But we must take a stand against ALL sin. And our stand must include ourselves 100%. In fact, it must start with ourselves and end with ourselves. To speak against another’s sin as though we are not in the very same breath a sinner just the same is NO different than the rest of the world. We are just one more voice amongst many proclaimers of this morality or that morality. Our salt has lost its saltiness.
And the very purpose of speaking against ALL sin is NOT to poke someone else in the eye. It is to create the realization, the awareness, that we need Jesus. Anything else is no different than what the great accuser, ha-satan, does.
50 years ago the big issue of the day was divorce and remarriage. The Christian church took the stand that anyone who was divorced (except for “unchastity”) must remain celibate for the rest of their lives. And anyone who was already remarried must leave their current spouse. This was a completely “biblical” stand. The biblical evidence for this position is unassailable. Or, at least, it is unassailable when looking at the Bible as a document of law that we must all follow perfectly or be cast into hell.
Are we now all “numb” about this issue? Yes. Why? Because we know people who are divorced and remarried (and not for the “right” reasons) who clearly have the spirit of God dwelling in them.
My fear is that in this great debate in our society the Christian church is becoming numb to what we are called to do. Show the world what the Kingdom of God is like. Not tell the world. But really show the world. And how do we show the world? By our Love.
thanks,
Iconoclast
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hope
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 3/17/2002 5:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast,
Thank you so much for your post. You summed it up so well. This is just one of the many issues that this can be applied to. When are we Christians as a whole going to wake up to what our true calling is? My heart literally aches for this. I have always known in my heart how Jesus would treat my brother. I KNOW he'd pull up a chair and eat dinner with him, yet I often wonder how many Christians would do that once they found out he was gay. How can things get so screwed up? I mean REALLY screwed up? It can almost lend to a feeling of helplessness because we REALLY want to advance the Kingdom of God against the kingdom of darkness, yet some of the biggest barriers lie right within the walls of our churches. It is so sad, but it gives me hope to hear it so well articulated by Iconoclast. What a heart.
Blessings,
Hope
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hope
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 3/17/2002 6:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeia,
Thank you so much for sharing your story, and your thoughts.
Your sister in Christ,
Hope | | Back to Top | | |
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beachgirl
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Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 26
| Posted 3/18/2002 3:57 AM (GMT -6) | | it has been really great to read everyone's (and i mean everyone's) posts on this topic. i know it's controversial and i am sorry if it came across that i was being insensitive in any way. i do seek to love and minister to the lost and i'm trying to figure out what that means. i came from a very conservative christian family and i grew up attending a christian school. so, as you might be able to deduce, i was pretty sheltered. to hope and all of you who have gay friends and family, thank you for sharing your story. it has been very insightful. i'm still trying to process all of the information that everyone has shared.
- a very humbled beachgirl
"Relying on God has to begin all over again every day as if nothing had yet been done..." C.S. Lewis
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rb1963b
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 3/18/2002 3:46 PM (GMT -6) | | What would God say about "harsh" words? Are harsh words about sin, sin?
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"
The Church is now refusing to preach against sin, but it also IS preaching against those that DO just that. They have become the evil ones, not those that deviate from what God shows to be the natural, right things. What is going on here?
What if I were to change the sin we are talking about, to say, lying?
We were raised in a Christian home, and were taught right from wrong. My brother recently found out he was a (choose your sin) (i'll choose liar) liar. He prayed for years for God to take away his lying, to no avail. Mom and dad have now accepted his condition, but when they are among Christian friends, the subject of lying constantly comes up. It hurts them deeply, but they pretend not to have a son that is a liar. It is easier for them since he lives in another state with another liar.
I prayed that God would make his life a mess until he accepted Christ. About the same time he stated that God was working in his life and he did accept Christ. He still is a liar and still lives with his liar friend. Some people say that God made him a liar. He is now more comfortable being a liar since he said he became a christian. I wish that others would THINK before they say judgemental things about liars because they might not know that there is a liar in their midst. If a liar knew that he would be condemned he might commit suicide.
Now, what other sin should we excuse because preaching against it is uncomfortable?
2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 3/18/2002 4:14 PM (GMT -6) | | The issue that needs to be addressed is not whether we are to judge other peoples sin but whether we are to make a stand against the SIN itself. I don't think that it's the loving thing to do to down cast a person because they happen to be gay BUT I do think that when homosexuality starts to be viewed to the younger population as a viable and acceptable lifestyle then this has gone too far!
We are not to judge the sinner -- NO!
-BUT-
We are to judge the SIN -- YES!
I know there are many people who live in homosexual lifestyles with GREAT hearts. I also know many atheists with terrific hearts but that doesn't mean that their belief systems and/or lifestyles line up with the word of God.
Peace,
trosie
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 3/19/2002 12:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I hate this topic. It is like beating a dead horse.
Faithfullservant, to tell you the truth, when this topic came up again I thought to myself "NOT AGAIN!" I too got sick and tired of hearing about this topic BUT I do NOT get tired of standing on the truth of the word! I DO NOT JUDGE A PERSON (Lord help us, each of us has enough sin to worry about within ourselves!)BUT I WILL TAKE A STAND AGAINST SIN ESPECIALLY WHEN IT EFFECTS YOUNG PEOPLE.
quote:
I have an idea, let's not care--Just love people.
Yes, I agree with this -- we are commanded to love people. However, I also think we NEED to care about what goes into the minds of young people.
quote:
Who cares anymore
I care when young minds are being fed lies as though they are truths! My fourteen year old son saw a movie in his public school the other day that had two women kissing in it (as though this were totally acceptable) That disturbed me! With all the tolerance and nonjudgmental attitudes people want to infiltrate I fear we might desensitize the younger generation to the point where ANYTHING is allowable and tolerated.
quote:
Lets not judge the sin or the sinner
I don't much care what people in general choose to do with their lives or with what they believe. My friends are not all Christians. Heck, some of the people I hang out with are living VERY ungodly lives. I look past their sin because I know too well of my own sin BUT I still do recognize sin.
quote:
let God figure it out.
How exactly do you think God is going to figure it out? Do you think he is going to somehow bolt lightening out from the sky to inform us? NO, I think God already did that in giving us the bible.
(Now I seriously hope I didn't come off too negatively.)
Peace y'all,
trosie
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trosie
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 3/19/2002 1:01 AM (GMT -6) | | | | Back to Top | | |
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hope
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 14
| Posted 3/19/2002 4:14 AM (GMT -6) | | I agree Faithful, let's leave it in God's hands.
Trosie:We are not to judge the sinner--No--BUT--We are to judge the sin--YES
Hope:What does judging the sin and not judging the sinner LOOK like though? If the sinner can't distinguish the two are Christians going about this in the way that Jesus would?
In Christ,
Hope
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 3/19/2002 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for asking, Hope. Judging sin but NOT the sinner looks something like this:
We know that certain things are not what God would want (which means they are sin) The bible lays out what is sin -- right? We as God with skin on are to speak against promoting that which is sin. Of course we all fail and fall short, but so did the disciples and Paul, yet they spoke against sin.
Jesus always stood up for what was good and right and approving to God. Jesus stood up for the vulnerable. When we turn the other eye while television shows are full of sexual promiscuity I don't think we are standing up for the vulnerable (which would be the young since television is primarily geared toward younger viewers) A person being gay is not what we are to judge but to publicly have television shows explicitly showing homosexual relations is NOT what I believe Jesus would tolerate if he were on earth today.
We are told quite elaborately through Jesus NOT to cast the first stone. We are told NOT to look at the speck in our brothers eye, hence we are NOT to judge A PERSON. Sin, on the other hand, is talked against all through the bible.
So, that is what I mean by judging the SIN BUT NOT the SINNER. Heck, we are all sinners! I really don't want to beat this topic like a dead horse since it has been talked about so much in the past. I just wanted to explain what I meant by that statement. Thanks
In Christ Love,
trosie
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rb1963b
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 93
| Posted 3/19/2002 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Well, Paul stated that we should judge, but, I guess Paul was wrong.
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