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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 4/28/2002 11:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Given the current climate of political correctness, it might make us uncomfortable that in the Bible, God is the subject of the verb “hate.” God hates. The Bible says so.
Some people are not so uncomfortable with this biblical truth. But these people also seem to assume that God agrees with their own opinions about whatever vice is most dispicable.
But the object of God’s hatred is not what most people expect:
I hate, I despise your festivals;
I will not take pleasure in your assemblies.…
Your offerings I will not accept;
your communion meals I will not notice.
Spare me the noise of your hymns;
the music of your harps I will not hear.
But let justice roll down like waters,
righteousness like an everflowing stream! (Amos 5:21–24)
Rather than the religious smells and bells catalogued in the first three verses, God is looking for something colorless, odorless, and utterly mundane—lives lived day by day in justice and righteous. God’s opinion of religious zeal without right-relatedness is clear: God hates it.
The prophets contain many parallel passages, such as Isa. 1:10–17 and Micah 6:6–8:
With what shall I come before the Lord,
and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt-offerings,
with calves a year old?
Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
with tens of thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?
“Kindness,” or steadfast love (hesed), is primarily a relational term, rather than a religious term. The prophets remind us that religion is never a substitute for justice and righteousness. Rather, religion ought to be in service of our relationship with God and neighbor (cf. Mark 2:27), or we might as well not mess with it at all—lest we “eat and drink judgment upon ourselves” (1 Cor. 11:27–32). Song of Songs makes it clear that love cannot be bought, no matter how sacrificially we may give (SoS 8:7). Paul’s contrast between love that “never fails” (cf. the “everflowing stream” of righteousness in Amos 5:24) and the “noisy gong and clanging cymbol” of religious zeal in 1 Cor. 13 also exemplifies this prophetic intuition.
Electra
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He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?”
I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”
Ezekiel 37:3 | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/28/2002 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Electra, did I notice correctly that at the top god "hates" things WE created, under certain circumstances. That's OK by me.
On a related note: Pavel Florevski has a bit on how "jealousy" is a form of Love. God being jealous is not a bad thing.
Sorry this is in passing. My son gets the computer now.
pot-unplugged | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 4/28/2002 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Electra, did I notice correctly that at the top god "hates" things WE created, under certain circumstances. That's OK by me.
I don’t think it’s quite that simple. Much of Israel’s religious worship was instituted by God (e.g. the Passover celebration, Day of Atonement, Sabbath, etc.). This is also true of some of our practices (e.g. Lord’s Supper). I wouldn’t call these things exclusively human creations, and I wouldn’t say that they are “hateful” in themselves. God intended them for good. Religious rites become hateful to God when they are practiced without love for God and neighbor. Electra
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He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?”
I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”
Ezekiel 37:3 | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/28/2002 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Yes, Electra.
Got ya covered. "Under certain circumstances": "when they are practiced without love for God and neighbor."
But I REALLY liked the way you put it!!! | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 4/28/2002 6:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Electra,
In spite of my frequent participation on this board, I am surprisingly wary of most talk about scripture. Scripture is so often used as a billy club that I find myself reflexively flinching when it is raised. That's why I like reading the Bible in private, where no one can use it against me.
But you have a poet's ear, and I find that I listen intently whenever your attention falls on some passage or another, or a connection is made that catches your curiosity. I love the way you think, and I always learn something unexpected from your posts. You set my thoughts in motion – so much so that it becomes difficult to say anything about it, because very quickly there’s too much to say.
So even when you don’t always get a reply, I just wanted you to know that you’re having an impact. It’s a delight to learn from your scholarship and insight which you wield with such a light touch. From one who has benefited much as a recipient: Thank you.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/29/2002 5:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Semeia: In spite of my frequent participation on this board, I am surprisingly wary of most talk about scripture. Scripture is so often used as a billy club that I find myself reflexively flinching when it is raised.....But you have a poet's ear
Doc: .Well, aren't we all lovey dovey Semeia. Hath not read what the WORD says:
"May the LORD cut off all flattering lips" (Psa. 12:3) and and "a flattering mouth works ruin" (Prov. 26:28). Why don't you believe the Word of God? Why doth thou rail against those who, like myself, justly point out the areas where thou aren't in conformity with it, for yeh we do thee a great favor, yet heap upon thy head wrath if thou dost persist in thine Jezebeel spirit of rebellion.
Just having fun proving your point
Nice post Electra. A point I've been obsessed with myself lately.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 4/29/2002 6:08 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Doc,
It's uncanny how you knew right away that I was talking about you! 
Now excuse me while I get back to Job. I'm typing in a big section of God's speech for a post. It's my favorite part. Like I often say to Iconoclast:
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up your loins like a man,
I will question you, and you shall declare to me."
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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BJS
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 587
| Posted 4/30/2002 4:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
“Kindness,” or steadfast love (hesed), is primarily a relational term, rather than a religious term. The prophets remind us that religion is never a substitute for justice and righteousness. Rather, religion ought to be in service of our relationship with God and neighbor (cf. Mark 2:27), or we might as well not mess with it at all—lest we “eat and drink judgment upon ourselves” (1 Cor. 11:27–32).
Good stuff, Electra. Very good stuff.
Brett
"Siste viator et memento mori." | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 4/30/2002 8:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Semeia" "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up your loins like a man,
I will question you, and you shall declare to me."
Doc: Well, since you guys love Job so much, I'm wondering if he ever quotes Job 2:10 in response to your Job 38? ! 
Love ya
Doc
PS. To illustrate Semeia's point, I think it would be fun sometime to have a pretend Bible brew-ha where we just insult each other with Bible verses -- or half verses -- out of context. (So many Bible "discussions" actually look like this. "Here, take this verse." "Yeh, well you take THIS verse." "Ha, THIS verse tops YOUR verse in its sleep, and there's more where IT came from". " Yeh, well in Jesus name I say your an idiot, cuz you forgot about THIS VERSE." "What are you, reprobate, cuz THAT verse don't mean what you think it means, because of THIS verse yoouuuuu forgot about."
Well, too busy now. Maybe some other time.
PSS. For now I will just leave you, lovely Semeia, with this piece of divine wisdom.
I Pet 3:1-5 "Wives, in the same way, accept the authority of your husbands... It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands. Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him lord. You have become her daughters as long as you do what is good..."
So, if YOU want to be a daughter of Sarah -- and what woman of God doesn't -- just remember to obey him and refer to Icon as "lord." I'm sure he'll be delighted. 
PSSS. The value of such silliness is that it exposes a) the importance of context and b) the centrality of the question of what IS and IS NOT transcultural in Scripture. (In case there's some reading in who its wrong to have fun misusing the Bible without a pedagogical purpose. 
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Semeia
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 522
| Posted 4/30/2002 6:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc,
I don't know where you get the impression that I'm not obedient. I do absolutely everything Iconoclast tells me that's in accordance with my wishes.
And I do call him lord, when I wear that little medieval number...
But enough about me. I think if you charged admission to the World Scripture Wrestling event we could raise a bunch of money for victims of spiritual abuse, including those damaged by the event itself. I'm game.
And Electra, I'm very sorry about derailing your thread. I have only one person to blame, and that would be Doc.
Thanks,
Semeia
"The opposite of sin is not virtue, but faith."--Soren Kierkegaard | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 4/30/2002 6:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc: I Pet 3:1-5 "Wives, in the same way, accept the authority of your husbands... It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands. Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him lord. You have become her daughters as long as you do what is good..."
Electra: Ha! Take THIS: “God said to Abraham, ‘…whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you…’” (Gen. 21:12). Does that mean Abraham has to submit to her authority and call her his lord, too? Well, we know that the Bible can never contradict itself, so the only way to harmonize Gen. 21:12 and 1 Pet. 3:1–5 is to practice mutual submission in marriage.  —But wait a second—Guess who GOD listens to in this family: Hagar—“The Lord has heard your affliction” (Gen. 16:11), and Ishmael (whose name happens to mean “God hears”)—“God heard the voice of the boy” (Gen. 21:17). 
Well, I’m not quite sure how to harmonize these oh-so-mysterious texts. What can I say, God’s ways are not our ways. Just to be on the safe side, I think we should affirm the worth of whoever happens to be speaking by listening carefully to their voice, and esteem them as we would ourselves—or higher—after all, they could be angels or even Jesus in disguise. I just love Bible brew-has. They remind us to see ourselves and God in others. Everywhere I look I see the Lord.
Electra
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?”
I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”
Ezekiel 37:3
Edited by - Electra on 04/30/2002 11:36:44 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 611
| Posted 4/30/2002 6:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Doc,
I don't know where you get the impression that I'm not obedient. I do absolutely everything Iconoclast tells me that's in accordance with my wishes.
And I do call him lord, when I wear that little medieval number...
But enough about me. I think if you charged admission to the World Scripture Wrestling event we could raise a bunch of money for victims of spiritual abuse, including those damaged by the event itself. I'm game.
And Electra, I'm very sorry about derailing your thread. I have only one person to blame, and that would be Doc.
Thanks,
Semeia
Too funny!!! Electra
~·•·~·•·~·•·~·•·~
He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?”
I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”
Ezekiel 37:3 | | Back to Top | | |
|
PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 5/2/2002 1:13 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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