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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > (No Subject)
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 3/22/2006 3:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | Yeah, I saw this. Interesting. In fairness to Robertson, his comments appeared to be limited to Islamic terrorists. But I wouldn't doubt that he feels the Islamic religion is ridden with demons from start to finish. Grahams's comments were rediculous--"If you think Islam is wonderful, go live under the Taliban somewhere." That misses the point that there are committed Muslims in the world who think the Taliban are demonic! And what is Graham saying, that he thinks Muslims who love their religion are not welcome in America? That he wants them to leave? Gosh. Mohler's a theologian, that's his problem. He sees everything in black and white. If a belief keeps people from the knowledge of Christ and his salvation, then it's demonic, that's it. I see his point. Sure, there's a real Satan who wants to keep people away from Jesus and out of relationship with him, so to Moher anything that amounts to that is "demonic." But it's not that simple. I thought of Acts 17, where Paul, speaking to the Stoics and Epicureans, said God arranged the regularities of the world in the hope that people WOULD GROPE for him, TRY to find him. But when people without the gospel start groping and searching, they're going to come up with imperfect answers and explanations. Does that make their belief systems "demonic"? I don't think so.
Tom
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 3/22/2006 7:54 AM (GMT -6) | | | I can see how one could apply "he who is not with me is against me" (Luke 23:11) to result in the statements we see made here. BUT... I think it would apply to any system you can think of in this world; there's a demonic aspect to it all, since Satan is "god of this world". They should be more careful about the log in their own eye. There's more than enough demons in their own denominations (or their own lives) to deal with first.
Conversely, I don't think there's any religion or system that is COMPLETELY dark; we can find aspects of any of them that we can can affirm and encourage (as we see in Acts 17).
Post Edited (Corey) : 3/22/2006 7:00:06 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 4/4/2006 5:30 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 4/6/2006 4:24 PM (GMT -6) | | I more or less hold to a moral theory of atonement similar to what Abelard first described. God can forgive. He doesn't need a dead goat or a dead God-man. There are Psalms that speak of God blotting out sins. I believe this is something God simply does out of love.
But Jesus' death (and the Jewish sacrificial system) still has meaning.
The wages of sin are in fact death. Sin results in a brokenness. Sometimes when we sin we feel this brokenness as guilt, and we feel like we want to fix it. But the consequences are there and we can't turn back time. When Achan sinned people died. Killing Achan didn't bring them back to life. But killing Achan was in a way a communal act of repentance. They turned away from that sin. In the same way, sacrificing a goat does not fix the past. It does however symbolize a recognition of guilt and hopefully repentance. But no past sin is atoned for. No ontological stain is imputed away. When we sin we often feel guilty or "dirty" and want to get "clean," but I do not believe that we should take these metaphors too literally. There is truth in them. It is true in a sense that the blood of Jesus washed our sin away, but this metaphor is flawed as are all metaphors.
I don't believe that our God can be bound to a law that requires blood sacrifice for forgiveness. To believe this I would have to believe either (1) that there is a law "above" God that he is compelled to obey or that (2) he freely chooses never to forgive freely but only when paid with blood. Number 1 makes God not really God. Number 2 does not seem very much like Jesus who Christians believe to be the full revelation of the Father.
What I believe is that God progressively reveals himself. To any given culture (and therefore most of its members) there are certain concepts that are practically unintelligible. To a tribal culture where survival is always in question, simple forgiveness is highly dangerous. It seems crazy. Forgive people who commit actions that could bring down the whole community? So God progressively reveals himself. He says something like, "I have an ideal I want you to realize, but I'm willing to be patient with you and reveal my ideal slowly so that it might be acheived my a greater number. I am willing to translate my message into your language even though this will only result in an approximation of what I mean to say." So I believe there is very real and significant truth in the Old Testament sacrifical system (and the vicarious atonement theories of Christianity).
But what happens when God becomes a man and lives within a culture that has accepted the temple system as the end-all be-all of divine revelation? Well, he says, "The scriptures, the prophets, and even the temple system have all been pointers to me, God. They were and are ways of communicating myself which were as accurate as possible. I'm not discrediting any of it. I'm just fulfilling it. No more mysteries, no more temple veil, no more hiding my work from you as though you are slaves. Now I call you friends and share what I'm up to with you. The Kingdom has come. This is it. Finally. If you've seen me, you've seen the Father."
Salvation is still a matter of accepting forgiveness through Jesus. Since his is the fullest revelation and since we are privy to it, we are accountable to Jesus. His resurrection demonstrates unequivocally that he is Lord. We accept life on his terms or we accept death. To those who believe in blood sacrifice, his actions are most readily interpreted as providing the ultimate blood sacrifice. To me his actions show me how obedience to my Lord should look. If anyone would be his disciple, he must take up his cross and follow. We lose our life for his sake, but then gain life in him.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 4/6/2006 4:53:35 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 4/7/2006 9:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Traditionally it is said that because Jesus died, we can/do have forgiveness and salvation. I say because Jesus is the kind of God who has given forgiveness and salvation, he also shows his followers a better way of life: the way of the cross (and the resurrection).
"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead."
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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