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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Myth of A Christian Nation - Discussion Thread | Forum Quick Jump
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Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 5/17/2006 4:57 AM (GMT -6) |   | I have not read any Sider. I have read Wallis, but I don't agree with him on very much. I have read much of Greg's new book. It is very different from Wallis' big one from a year or two ago. I find Greg's position in this book to be very different from Wallis'. If Greg's speach is different from his book, then I have no way of knowing what to think of his position. All I've got are his books.
You asked me about the idea that "one should not involve themselves in politics but rather should speak prophetically to government from the outside." This is a non sequitur. It's like talking about a non-circular circle. To "speak prophetically to government from the outside" is political involvement. I am in favor of this kind of political involvement. In fact I believe it is the Church's resonsibility to be political in this way. If Greg (or Sider or Wallis) say that we should not involve ourselves in politics, then I disagree. (See my first post on this thread.)
Brandon: "Now, what would the purpose of speaking to government be about anyway? Would it not, generally speaking, be about seeing justice for the oppressed?"
Zach: Yes. But primarily it is about following Jesus.
Brandon: "For all intents and purposes when those who attempt to influence government for the good of the oppressed are they not in some SIGNIFICANT sense attempting get government to be coercive?"
Zach: No. When I attempt to persuade people to do justice, it is not an attempt to get them to be coercive. That would not be doing justice. God may use such evil activity and turn it to good ends, but we are not to sin more that grace may increase.
Brandon: Laws would have to be made such that society would HAVE TO CONFORM toward this end goal of relieving the oppressed.
Zach: Another reason why man-made laws are bad. God does not force conformity to his laws. Those who force conformity to any law are being ungodly.
Brandon: And who besides government would be responsible for this?
Zach: No one. I'm a Christian Anarchist (or, more precisely, a Christian who believes that only God is Lord).
Brandon: Would it not be the prophets who promoted and in large part got government to make such legislation with the aim of more equitable distribution of rights and opportunities?
Zach: When did this happen? What are you referring to? The prophets in the Old Testament spoke to the regular people as much as to the king. Stewardship is my job. It is the job of the Church. I encourage individuals to be giving. I do not encourage them to get together and force their neighbor to be giving. I encourage the (worldly) government to stop governing.
Brandon: So I really don’t see why there is this complaint about what I’m saying when for all intents and purposes those falling within the Anabaptist tradition are really not much different.
Zach: I do not speak for the Anabaptist tradition. Plenty of Anabaptists tried to kill their lords. But the difference between you and me is I do not support any coercive means against decision-making humans. This includes legislating, voting, policing, and fighting. Justice is not a matter of making sure everyone ends with the same amount of stuff. Justice is not about a level playing-field. Justice is not about allowing the orders of creation to do their work. Justice is obedience to the One who is just.
"He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Why make laws that send people to prison when Jesus has alread proclaimed freedom for the prisoners? We are not gnostics. We are not docetics. It's not just "spiritual."
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 5/17/2006 5:05:08 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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