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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > Woodland Hills and the New York Times | Forum Quick Jump
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/1/2006 9:34 AM (GMT -6) |   |
Mephi: Hmmm... Well, look at what WHC actually does. On July 4th and Memorial Day weekends, we verbally and clearly recognize the significance of those dates. Before his sermons, Doc usually makes some statements about how we should give thanks for the freedoms garnered by the dedicated actions of people who serve our country. And may have prayer that incorporates these ideas. But it's NEVER overwhelming or central...and it's always kept in the perspective of ALL other allegiances being subsumed by our allegiance to Christ. Theoretically, we could do the same type of thing for Martin Luther King weekend, Cinco De Mayo, or other important cultural dates. I think this is TOTALLY appropriate. But this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what North Heights did.
selah: Ok, see, I see that as "centering" (Greg is affirming the significance while reminding us of the fact that we are identified with Christ). So, We recognize the day and the significance (as a reality) but we don't have a celebration of it in church. Cool.
Now, more importantly, give me something I can disagree with Greg on. I need something to complain and bug him about over the next year or so! Geez, I caved on Open theism, caved on pacifism, always really believed this one....sooo now what? This isn't as fun as it used to be. ;)
T Post Edited (selah) : 8/1/2006 9:39:55 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 10:22 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
I'm totally in agreement, and am committed to correct this as much as I can. I recognize that I have advantages due to my ethicity that other don't have, or more strongly, are disadvantaged by. It is MY problem and responsibility to address.
What I have a harder time embracing is any notion of identity that may be incompatible with our deeper common identity as "in Christ." Ethnic identification seems susceptible to this trap
It is. It really is. This is why we have to take GREAT CARE in how we live out reconciliation.
*****************************
Corey:
Okay... let's lay this out there. I think the religious left may be as guilty as the religious right in fusing Christianity and politics.
Sure. In my mind, it takes the form of MORALISM...which often leads to forms of self-righteous pandering and political correctness. For some on the "left", instead of getting one's TOTAL identity from Christ, the Christian identity is MERGED with the agenda of "liberating" human beings in some way. This is just as bad as any other idolatry.
Yes, liberation comes from living in Christ...but we are NOT to get our CORE IDENTITY from our liberating actions. God doesn't ask us to fundamentally identify ourselves as liberators (though we operate in that capacity) God asks us to live life with a core, fundamental understanding of being UNIFIED with God and each other!! Our identity is in Christ. and our liberating activities FLOW from that identity.
This, I believe, is where the "left" mainly get things wrong.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/1/2006 1:58 PM (GMT -6) | | |
I’m forever indebted and grateful to Doc for his many books and sermons that have contributed favorably to my personal growth as a Christian.
With that said, the “Sword and the Cross” series was an utter disaster if its purpose was to bridge communities together and advance the Kingdom of God. The ugly head of hypocrisy was raised in Greg’s message back then and continues today in his new book. Yes, the baby was thrown out with the proverbial baptism water as the sermons exiled a fifth of the congregation and alienated the remainder. The new book fuels the culture war that has dividend our country and ironically escalated Dr. Boyd as a new hot player in today’s political battle front. Yes, enter Dr. Boyd into the same adulteress arena of politics he preached against in his overly labored series. In his vain attempt to disarm the rightwing of its sword he further divided us all (see NYT poll). I think Greg went over the top with the series (and now book) and should have surrendered his “sword” of words early on. Words that now ring around the world with the sound that stems more from a personal ideology and world view then from the Word of God.
So I ask, what perversion is worse, a flag being freely displayed in a church to promote unity in the UNITED States or a book sold in a church with overtones that leads to division? Both are destructive when you draw parallels to the President of the United States with the Fuhrer of the Third Reich.
Quote from GB: “But the relationship between Bush and the Evangelical Right is, in my opinion, very very scary. Its not TOO FAR from the relationship of conservative Christians to another notorious quasi religious politician in Germany not too long ago.”
http://www.opentheismboard.org/default.aspx?f=7&p=1&m=47615
Why is Doc’s cry to “power under” our brothers and sisters (instead of “power over”) so exclusive in practice? Isn’t the call to “power under” (or else leave the church) a form of power over? Greg does not apologize; instead he says it’s just part of the cost (the white, middle-class suburbanites who left WHC) of defining who we are as a church.
Maybe this was his aspiration from the get-go. Might we be witnessing the emergence of the next Jessie Jackson or Jessie Ventura…
go Jessie Boyd 2008. 
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 8/1/2006 2:38:33 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/1/2006 2:40 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/1/2006 3:11 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Jerking your chain, Tom?
I applaud Corey and Meph for acknowledging the equal danger of the Christian left.
It becomes a clouded haze differentiating between the faults of extreme left and right Christians once they enter into the ring of politics.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 8/1/2006 3:14:29 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 8/1/2006 3:53 PM (GMT -6) | |
PoW said...
COMMENT:
The Cross points *beyond* what can't be accomplished in resolving the seeming extremes of the finite pseudo-truth and infinite diversity. But the Cross *IS* judge over all -- it is divisive. There is no neutrality. Both what is passed on this earth as diversity, and what is passed off as standards will be weighed and found lacking. The only non-idolatrous identity we can have resides in Christ's perfection. Yet that perfection is not finite but infinite. And our only infinity-personhood is found only in His truth.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/1/2006 4:09 PM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...
So it sounds like you're saying the Church by defintion is not to align itself with ANY one political movement or agenda, left or right, and this has implications for Christian on both the left and right.
Yes, for the most part that would be my position, Tom. POW has it right. I have been sucked into the vortex of Christian politics and I don’t like it. To be honest, I believe Greg started out with good intentions too, but his passion for social justice sucked him in. I’m afraid this lure of some greater good will propel him into the national limelight and further fuel the cultural war that plagues our country.
The bottom line is you can’t very easily spend six weeks (and write a book) preaching from the pulpit against the mixing of Christ with politics without being found guilty yourself. The emperor has no cloths… as he stands naked with a sword in his hand.
Peace
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:01 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
In other words, if we are JUST talking about the Church's ability to MERGE nationalistic ideology (ANY nationalistic ideology!) with Christian faith...and the SYNCRETISM that comes from that...how is what North Heights did any different that what the Nazis did?
Do you really mean to tell me that you DON'T see any similarity???
"The Church in Nazi Germany was subjected to as much pressure as any other organisation in Germany. Any perceived threat to Hitler could not be tolerated - and the churches of Germany potentially presented the Nazis with numerous threats.
In 1933, the Catholic Church had viewed the Nazis as a barrier to the spread of communism from Russia. In this year, Hitler and the Catholic Church signed an agreement that he would not interfere with the Catholic Church while the Church would not comment on politics. However, this only lasted until 1937, when Hitler started a concerted attack on the Catholic Church arresting priests etc. In 1937, the pope, Pius XI, issued his "Mit brennender Sorge" statement ("With burning anxiety") over what was going on in Germany. However, there was never a total clampdown on the Catholic Church in Germany. It was a world-wide movement with much international support."
"Not comment on politics", that doesn't sound like current evangelical thought.
The current evangelical thought seems to be that of Bonhoeffer, get involved in politics, though not to the extent he did. 
Greg Boyd made his point eloquently in six sermons and one book. I just don't think he meant to namecheck and direct national attention to North Heights. That kind of makes it a personal attack.
I would not have wanted to sit through such a service either but I've seen worse in church.
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:13 PM (GMT -6) | |
TGB said...So it sounds like you're saying the Church by defintion is not to align itself with ANY one political movement or agenda, left or right, and this has implications for Christian on both the left and right. I haven't read Greg's book yet, so I guess he's saying something MORE than this? Tom
No, his book is just a rehash of his sermon series with a couple minor howlers in it.
I found absolutely nothing disagreeable with either the sermon series or the book, minus some questions about the howlers, but watching his community pastors/head reconcilers twist the knife isn't very appealing, deshou neh?
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika:
Greg Boyd made his point eloquently in six sermons and one book. I just don't think he meant to namecheck and direct national attention to North Heights. That kind of makes it a personal attack.
A personal attack? How would it be a personal attack? Please explain.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:24 PM (GMT -6) | | |
TGB said...
Selah, you're Hungarian? Hmmm.
selah: yep. Concerned?  | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:33 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Laika: Greg Boyd made his point eloquently in six sermons and one book. I just don't think he meant to namecheck and direct national attention to North Heights. That kind of makes it a personal attack.A personal attack? How would it be a personal attack? Please explain.
In his sermons and his book, he mentions sitting through a service in a large evangelical church.... etc.
And I understood his concern and everything but more importantly, admired the maturity and Christian charity it took to protect the identification of the church by keeping it anonymous.
And then I read the New York Times article and watched the video and felt sick. I honestly don't believe Boyd intended for it to get personal like that, by naming the church, but now it's national.
How do you think they feel now, Mr. Emotional?
Hey, look at their demographics:
You could probably attack them for being old and not liking hip hop as well.
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 8/1/2006 8:42:13 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/2/2006 5:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok...
Laika:
Greg Boyd made his point eloquently in six sermons and one book. I just don't think he meant to namecheck and direct national attention to North Heights. That kind of makes it a personal attack.
and...
I found absolutely nothing disagreeable with either the sermon series or the book, minus some questions about the howlers, but watching his community pastors/head reconcilers twist the knife isn't very appealing, deshou neh?
and...
You could probably attack them for being old and not liking hip hop as well.
Hmmmm...
I am not understanding how this is being interpreted as a personal attack. I'm really not. This is what I see occurring. Doc has preached about churches that have apparently had syncretistic behavior with respect to nationalism/patriotism and Christianity. He talked about the church anonymously on stage. Somehow, NYT got a hold of some pictures of an actual service of North Heights. We saw the pictures of that service. I talked about some connections I saw that Doc had ALREADY mentioned before.
Now...
Please explain to me HOW this makes this a PERSONAL attack? No one is saying that the people at North Heights are mean, malicious, or anything like that. No one is saying that they aren't Christian. No one is using any ad hominems about them at all. How is this personal just because the name of the church is known? I mean, it doesn't seem like the church had this service IN SECRET or something. Nor would it seem that this church would be ashamed to talk about what it did. Any person could have come to that service that day and they would have seen the same thing.
So, how is this personal? If they'd (NYT) have picked another church to highlight over and against what Greg was saying...one in Iowa or something...that had done the SAME THING...would that have been "personal" too?
Does everyone see what I'm asking here?
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 8/2/2006 5:06:45 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/2/2006 7:41 AM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...Laika: And then I read the New York Times article and watched the video and felt sick. I honestly don't believe Boyd intended for it to get personal like that, by naming the church, but now it's national. Corey: Do you think that Greg "named the church"? Or maybe this is just a nearby church that the reporter found out about in her research for the story.
I don't think Boyd meant for it to become WHC versus North Heights and had been doing the responsible thing by keeping it anonymous, "love covers a multitude of sins". I shouldn't have implied Boyd named the church. I think someone else spilled the beans to the reporter during her research. It makes for a nice angle, don't you think? Mega-church versus mega-church, a split in the evangelical ranks, a war among the 'people of God'.
At least she didn't Jayson Blair the story.
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 8/2/2006 7:44:02 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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