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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > (No Subject)
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Pentz
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Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 59
| Posted 7/30/2006 12:23 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Hello All-
Here is the a link to the article about WHC from the New York Times. I havent read it yet so here you go...
Nate | | Back to Top | | |
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Pentz
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Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 59
| Posted 7/31/2006 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Pentz
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 59
| Posted 7/31/2006 7:30 AM (GMT -6) | | | I thought the article was well balanced. This morning it was the #1 emailed story from the New York Times website. It will be interesting where the story goes from here. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/31/2006 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey,
Thanks for the video. I'm interested in your opinion on this and on Greg's book "myth of a christian nation." Have you read it?
selah | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 7/31/2006 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | |
might-be-don said...
Wonder what prompted this story now... didn't these events happened a year ago? Two summers ago, April-June 2004.
The recent release of the related book is probably why the New York Times is covering the story now.
never say you're bitter, Jack
bitter makes the worst things come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 7/31/2006 12:20:23 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/31/2006 1:43 PM (GMT -6) | | |
COMMENT:
The Cross points *beyond* what can't be accomplished in resolving the seeming extremes of the finite pseudo-truth and infinite diversity. But the Cross *IS* judge over all -- it is divisive. There is no neutrality. Both what is passed on this earth as diversity, and what is passed off as standards will be weighed and found lacking. The only non-idolatrous identity we can have resides in Christ's perfection. Yet that perfection is not finite but infinite. And our only infinity-personhood is found only in His truth.
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Pentz
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Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 59
| Posted 7/31/2006 6:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Well, let the controversy and politics begin.... http://newsbusters.org/node/6671.
You cant be suprised about the response. Well we will see where this goes. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 8/1/2006 1:52 AM (GMT -6) | | What a total loser of a response Clay Walters gave. Gosh. Talk about missing the point. I don't even agree with Greg on everything (I'm not a pacifist), but I didn't find anything in the interview that I specifically disagreed with. American ISN'T the world's hope. Christ IS. Walters actually got offended by this.
I'm Right on a LOT of issues. Maybe MOST. But the attitude of those on the Right is so often offensive I'm ashamed to say I share their views. I often don't enjoy being around them even when I agree on the issues.
I give up using the term 'evangelical' to describe myself. It's a hopeless task.
Tom
Post Edited (TGB) : 8/1/2006 1:58:20 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/1/2006 6:45 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Tom,
Yep, I agree with you.
Butwhy not embrace pacifism?
come on, go all the way! ;)
peacefully yours,
T | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Thinking about the pictures Corey showed...
A comparison...
(http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm)
Now...
IF WE ARE SPEAKING about A DEEPLY SYNCRETISTIC APPROACH THAT MERGES NATIONALISTIC IDEOLOGY AND CHRISTIANITY...tell me what's the difference between what this church did and what the Church in Nazi Germany did.
Don't play with it. Don't punk out. Is there REALLY any difference? | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/1/2006 7:30 AM (GMT -6) | | | You're comparing North Heights Lutheran church to the Nazis?
Is that what Greg wants to do, build walls?
never say you're bitter, Jack
bitter makes the worst things come back
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 7:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
What a total loser of a response Clay Walters gave. Gosh. Talk about missing the point. I don't even agree with Greg on everything (I'm not a pacifist), but I didn't find anything in the interview that I specifically disagreed with. American ISN'T the world's hope. Christ IS. Walters actually got offended by this.
Yo. I feel you.
One thing that I WILL agree with is this: I believe that Doc alienated more conservative-leaning people than he actually had to. (Not intentionally, of course!) I really do think a slightly different approach could have been used that could have taken the genuine issues that more conservative people are concerned about. Not every person who respects, understands, and agrees with some ideas of conservatism is a member of the Religious Right or the GOP. Just like not every person who respects, understands, and agrees with some ideas of liberalism reads Al Franken or is a member of the Green Party.
IMO, things really COULD have went down differently. Maybe we would have lost the same amount of people...but I kinda doubt it.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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Pentz
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2006
Total Posts : 59
| Posted 8/1/2006 7:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph is not comparing North Heights Lutheran Church and the Nazis...
MephEternal:IF WE ARE SPEAKING about A DEEPLY SYNCRETISTIC APPROACH THAT MERGES NATIONALISTIC IDEOLOGY AND CHRISTIANITY...tell me what's the difference between what this church did and what the Church in Nazi Germany did. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
I'm going to ask that you REALLY look at what the hell I'm saying before you start some nonsense. I will say this again...
IF WE ARE SPEAKING about A DEEPLY SYNCRETISTIC APPROACH THAT MERGES NATIONALISTIC IDEOLOGY AND CHRISTIANITY...tell me what's the difference between what this church did and what the Church in Nazi Germany did.
In other words, if we are JUST talking about the Church's ability to MERGE nationalistic ideology (ANY nationalistic ideology!) with Christian faith...and the SYNCRETISM that comes from that...how is what North Heights did any different that what the Nazis did?
Do you really mean to tell me that you DON'T see any similarity???
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/1/2006 7:53 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I think it's all how you frame it. The pastor could have had good/pure/fine intent (wanting to honor God, his country and those who serve it), but because of selective perception people hear what they want (which could lead to a mess). On the other hand, he could be fusing God with his country...which leads to pics like those you posted...and also a mess. This is why I think Greg is right in saying EITHER way let's keep it out of the church.
ok peace and joy,
selah | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
I think it's all how you frame it. The pastor could have had good/pure/fine intent (wanting to honor God, his country and those who serve it), but because of selective perception people hear what they want (which could lead to a mess). On the other hand, he could be fusing God with his country...which leads to pics like those you posted...and also a mess. This is why I think Greg is right in saying EITHER way let's keep it out of the church.
Uh...
PLEASE explain the statement "I think it's all how you frame it." I'm very interested.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo, Selah. It's one thing to wish to acknowledge and honor patriotism in a Christian context. That's completely cool.
But...
It's something TOTALLY DIFFERENT to view Christianity and patriotism as so inextricably linked that is appears entirely, unquestionably appropriate to have a nationalistic parade in a Christian worship service in a Christian worship sanctuary! With actual soldiers, people dressed up as MINUTEMEN, and a huge American flag placed even LARGER than the cross on the side???
There IS a difference.
Something else. NO ONE is saying that ANYONE had malicious or openly idolatrous intention with this. I'd be an idiot to say that! What I am noticing is the insidious nature of how some of our beliefs can PERVERT our actions that come from genuinely good motives, mainly those of honoring one's nation and the servants of that nation.
-------------------------
How about this. Separate...but related, idea. Wouldn't you say that if it became the case that any church couldn't pray JUST AS FERVENTLY for our nationalistic enemies...as we can for our own troops...that we have a problem?
Well?
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 8/1/2006 8:20:36 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm proud to be hungarian. I will cook Hungarian food, sing hungarian songs with my kids, dance the hungarian dances and stay on the good side of the hungarian mafia :) In that way, I think it's good...or at least "ok" to be proud. I don't think there's anything wrong with having similar pride in being an american. It may be getting harder, but you can have "good" pride in america/and american accomplishments. And in good ways, I think we can share that and even celebrate the good things we able to do in the world. But, just like it would be "off" or "bad" for me to celebrate being Hungarian OVER you being"Irish" or something... It's bad to celebrate being American OVER being from this or that country.
God please bless America AND the entire world is ok...and even a good prayer. God bless AMERICA (singular) .. is not good.
I think some pastors try to celebrate the good kind of "pride" in America - and they do it in church because they believe in giving God public thanks for all things...including that. Some celebrate America OVER other countries (either explicitly or implicitly)...
Either way, the intentions can be misread....which can lead the hearers down the wrong road. If that happens to even one person, it can get messy.
So, it's just not wise to take that chance - in church.
does that make sense?
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
I'm proud to be hungarian. I will cook Hungarian food, sing hungarian songs with my kids, dance the hungarian dances and stay on the good side of the hungarian mafia  In that way, I think it's good...or at least "ok" to be proud. I don't think there's anything wrong with having similar pride in being an american. It may be getting harder, but you can have "good" pride in america/and american accomplishments. And in good ways, I think we can share that and even celebrate the good things we able to do in the world. But, just like it would be "off" or "bad" for me to celebrate being Hungarian OVER you being"Irish" or something... It's bad to celebrate being American OVER being from this or that country.
God please bless America AND the entire world is ok...and even a good prayer. God bless AMERICA (singular) .. is not good.
I think some pastors try to celebrate the good kind of "pride" in America - and they do it in church because they believe in giving God public thanks for all things...including that. Some celebrate America OVER other countries (either explicitly or implicitly)...
Either way, the intentions can be misread....which can lead the hearers down the wrong road. If that happens to even one person, it can get messy.
I see a big difference between celebrating/appreciating cultural uniqueness...and placing oneself in a position to form an ESSENTIAL IDENTITY around those cultural uniqueness. Unfortunately, many people do the latter. It's really easy to do. This is how people end up having "___ Pride" (insert your choice of nation, ethnicity, etc), where what they really mean is that their self-understanding and sense of worth is in some way BASED on whatever the "pride" is in. They get worth out of being _____ when the TOTALITY of worth should come from one's identification with God in Christ. In a time and cultural situation like the one in which America finds itself, it doesn't make any sense for the Church to ENCOURAGE spaces where it's even easier to fall into the quagmire.
For clarification, I am NOT saying that we cannot have celebration and genuine appreciation for expressions of humanity via cultural or national diversity. Also, I am NOT saying that we need to ignore (or be ignorant of) systemic oppression that uses those expresssions of humanity as a basis (ie. racism, ethnocentrism, etc) I would AFFIRM that both of these trends are very healthy. But, unfortunately, humans can be VERY idolatrous people, in that we will chiefly identify ourselves (in life, if not in word) with those expressions RATHER THAN chiefly identifying ourselves with the Imago Dei. And I would say that we need to take this into account whenever we decide to honor patriotism in Christian contexts.
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 8/1/2006 8:53:34 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Oh...a quick, very subjective opinion...
The agenda of "multiculturalism" (as I understand it) is deeply flawed...and counterproductive to the spread of the Kingdom. Why? Because it fools people into considering cultural expression AS AN ASPECT OF ONE'S CORE IDENTITY. The outcome: People end up feeling that they are MORE DIFFERENT than similar in essence. This need not occur. All this is distinct from celebration/appreciation of cultural expression (others' and one's own)
If the biblical idea of one new humanity in Christ doesn't mean the utter demolition of the idea of internalized IDENTIFICATION with any cultural expression of humanity...I don't know what does.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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selah
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/1/2006 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
I see a big difference between celebrating/appreciating cultural difference...and placing oneself in a position to form an ESSENTIAL IDENTITY around those cultural differences. Unfortunately, many people do the latter. It's really easy to do. This is how people end up having "___ Pride" (insert your choice of nation, ethnicity, etc), where what they really mean is that their self-understanding and sense of worth is in some way BASED on whatever the "pride" is in. They get worth out of being _____ when the TOTALITY of worth should come from one's identification with God in Christ...
selah: Wow Mephi, I think we agree! That would be twice in one year  ! I'm especially inclined to agree with this part: "In a time and cultural situation like the one in which America finds itself, it doesn't make any sense for the Church to ENCOURAGE spaces where it's even easier to fall into the quagmire." Right!!! I think that's (at least part of) what Greg is saying.
Meph: For clarification, I am NOT saying that we cannot have celebration and genuine appreciation for expressions of humanity via cultural or national diversity. Also, I am NOT saying that we need to ignore (or be ignorant of) systemic oppression that uses those expresssions of humanity as a basis (ie. racism, ethnocentrism, etc) I would AFFIRM that both of these trends are very healthy. But, unfortunately, humans can be VERY idolatrous people, in that we will chiefly identify ourselves (in life, if not in word) with those expressions RATHER THAN chiefly identifying ourselves with the Imago Dei. And I would say that we need to take this into account whenever we decide to honor patriotism in Christian contexts.
selah: see. I really think this is an either/or in corporate Christian contexts. Either we DO it or we don't. Think about it. How, especially now, can we have a balanced, reasonable and healthy celebration that honors patriotism in church? What IS ok? Is it ok to have a flag? To sing songs? etc etc...
I don't think it can (or should) be done at all.
but that's just one opinion,
T
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