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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/1/2006 7:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | | Ok. I'll bell the cat.
I thought about Tom's response dealing with him being more "right". I'm assuming this deals with being more "conservative"
So here's the question...
What is CONSERVATISM or LIBERALISM, politically speaking? What does "right" or "left" even mean here?
I'd like to see how various people here answer this question. Let's start REALLY basic...or really oversimplified...
Conservatism: A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden change in the established order.
Liberalism: A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
(Both from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th ed)
So, what do these terms mean to you? AND if you "lean" one way or another, WHY?
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/2/2006 5:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Stereotyped...
Liberalism: pro-abortion, pro-same-sex relationships, pro-governmental social programs (e.g., welfare, health care), anti- (absolute) morals, pro-universalism (with regard to one-world issues).
Conservatism: pro-life (anti-abortion), pro-heterosexual (anti homosexual), anti-governmental social programs, pro- (absolute) morals, anti-univeralism.
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us? | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 8/3/2006 12:56 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph: So, what do these terms mean to you? AND if you "lean" one way or another, WHY? Don't be scared. Just talk about it.
Corey: I AM nervous to talk about it. I'm inclined to follow Greg's (public) example and just keep it to myself. But, against my better judgement, here goes.
I'm a political conservative. It's my view that the government has overstepped it's proper bounds, and the trend continues in that direction. It becomes a vicious circle as dependence upon the government breeds increased demand for government provision.
I view this overstepping, however, as primarily a result of the abdication of responsibility by the Church. If the church was profoundly and Christianly engaged with the poor and disadvantaged, the vaccuum that government is rushing to fill would not exist in the first place. And I believe the church would be (or at least could be) far more effective and efficient than governement programs.
Israel demanded to substitute in a political king to care for them. It wasn't good for them, it's not good for us.
So, perhaps ironically, I view the left at least as guilty of blending or fusing church and state as the right. If we agree that the gospel is so much more than matters of dogma, then it becomes apparent that in practical effect, we're looking to government to bring about the Kingdom of God. Post Edited (Corey) : 8/3/2006 1:11:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/3/2006 1:37 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...
Meph: So, what do these terms mean to you? AND if you "lean" one way or another, WHY? Don't be scared. Just talk about it.
Corey: I AM nervous to talk about it. I'm inclined to follow Greg's (public) example and just keep it to myself. But, against my better judgement, here goes.
I'm a political conservative. The healing can't begin until a full confession is made.
I voted for Jimmy Carter in 1976.
<whew>
The healing can't begin until a full confession is made.
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
Post Edited (Laika) : 8/3/2006 1:40:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 8/3/2006 6:28 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...I'm a political conservative. It's my view that the government has overstepped it's proper bounds, and the trend continues in that direction. It becomes a vicious circle as dependence upon the government breeds increased demand for government provision. I view this overstepping, however, as primarily a result of the abdication of responsibility by the Church. If the church was profoundly and Christianly engaged with the poor and disadvantaged, the vaccuum that government is rushing to fill would not exist in the first place. And I believe the church would be (or at least could be) far more effective and efficient than governement programs. Israel demanded to substitute in a political king to care for them. It wasn't good for them, it's not good for us.
So, perhaps ironically, I view the left at least as guilty of blending or fusing church and state as the right. If we agree that the gospel is so much more than matters of dogma, then it becomes apparent that in practical effect, we're looking to government to bring about the Kingdom of God. Wow. Ummm...first being liberal or conservative is more than just "how much" or "how little" government one adheres to.
I view the "overstepping" as not so much "overstepping" but government knowing what it's role is. Framed this way, questions of "how much" or "how little" are really not of importance. Boy, this starts getting my juices going. Basically government's role is to make sure that every other area i.e. business, schools, family, church, etc are playing their own significant goals without one playing the part that is rightfully the others. Again, I'm speaking very generally. It would amaze ya to find that there are "conservatives" who speak of government this way. This is why it is so impossible to ask a conservative, "How little do you want?" The question should be framed more in terms of the responsibility of government. The bottomline is that we need government.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/3/2006 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 8/3/2006 11:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Brandon: Boy, this starts getting my juices going.
Corey: What specifically is offensive to you? Could you unpack your objection a little more? I'm not intending to blanketly or simplistically decry any role for government. I fear that the word 'conservative' is triggering all kinds of associations for you, most of which probably bother me as much as you, which is why I was quite reluctant to use the term. Give me a better term and I'll use that instead. Maybe something like 'post-conservative.' There's a pretty big gap between me and most of what one would hear on talk radio. I'm ALL about advancing the Kingdom; I really don't care about politics much. When I vote, it's usually more AGAINST a candidate than FOR a candidate. I don't feel any allegiance to any party.
As I see it, my intuitions here are in line with Greg's; we shouldn't put faith in the government to advance the Kingdom.
Those on the right often talk of taking back the nation for Christ -- if we can just get the right people in the supreme court, if we can just get certain constitutional ammendments passed, etc... THEN the will of God will be done in America and the Kingdom is advanced. Ha! I mock and and rebuke such CHEAP opinions of the Kingdom!! My blood boils against the right.
Likewise the religious left speaks in moral terms that we are obligated to fight injustice and care for the poor and disadvantaged -- which we ARE -- but then they move to LEGISLATE or SUE this into being. If we could just force the rich to care for the poor. If we could just force sensitive speech. If we could just force stewardship of our ecology... THEN the Kingdom will have been advanced. Ha! I mock and and rebuke such CHEAP opinions of the Kingdom!! My blood boils against the left.
There. Anyone not offended? Post Edited (Corey) : 8/3/2006 11:18:41 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/4/2006 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Appreciate your bravery, Corey. No doubt, yo.
Some of my emerging thoughts.
For me, talking about public policy has very little to NOTHING to do with the Kingdom of God being built through the use of our government. It has to do with finding a structure that will maximize human and ecological flourishing and minimize human and ecological suffering. The difference is between the GOOD and the BEAUTIFUL, just like Doc says.
Doc makes it very clear that all "good" people should want just laws and effective (not overbearing) governmental checks that will help the human condition. It's just that we cannot directly ALIGN this with the spread of the Kingdom of God. In my mind, living in love is a beautiful reality that goes WAY BEYOND the requirements of a just, humane society...but it doesn't accept LESS than a just, humane society...at least in the heart.
As I think about it, I think that one of the deepest threats to the human condition in America is the rise of powerful multinational corporations and conglomerations. Our society, by and large, doesn't have the political will to combat some of the dehumanizing tendencies of the profit-making giants. (Not even the Church!) Because of this, I believe that we need a sufficient government that can actively manage and check some of these businesses. To be sure, there is MUCH that could be evaluated and corrected about our current domestic policies. But given the way our country continually socializes itself into believing some aspects of the "American Dream", I would expect at least some of the problems that we've been having.
I will say this straight out...and again. I don't think that the Church currently has the level of "COMMON GOOD" sensitivity and moral will to oppose the multinational corporations on a significant level...even through "non-political" means. I don't say that happily.
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/4/2006 9:54 AM (GMT -6) | | I have to agree with some other people I've heard. I think that the issue is ultimately and ECCLESIOLOGICAL one. Among the many questions asked with this is this...: What impact is it reasonable to say that the Body of Christ SHOULD HAVE on the Kingdoms of the World in which it finds itself? And what are the valid means through which that impact happens?
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
"Hmm. Why not? What the hell. Let's try it."
--God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/10/2006 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Ok. Let me say some things here...before I even put this stuff.
I am NOT saying that ALL (or even MOST) people with a conservative bend would actually say or support some of the things below. What I AM saying that is that 1) the comic DOES have a kernal of truth in it and 2) the 2nd link came from a conservative Christian webblog that I read regularly (because it's quite good!), so it's NOT a satire or a joke. It's real.
So, I'm NOT trying to polarize or bash. Please put that rhetoric away for another day.
This Modern World comic strip
www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=21166
As seen on www.evangelicaloutpost.com,
GOD, COUNTRY, CAPITALISM
Here's the caption...
Will We Stand Before It's Too Late?
For decades te Left has waged war on the values that built Western civilization. But now good people everywhere are saying enough is enough. If you think these values are worth standing for, please join us as a bearer of the God, Country, and Capitalism magnet. All profits go to conservative causes.
Yeah...
Actually, so I won't get the "Hey-all-you-do-is-talk-against-conservatives" junk, I'll throw in something against the Libbys too!
From Tom Tomorrow's actual website...straight liberal. (http://www.thismodernworld.com)
Let's just say that some liberals don't appreciate how Lieberman has been conducting himself in the Connecticut elections.
Ok...am I safe now? I feel like I'd be more politically correct if I offend BOTH SIDES. (Just like the comedic styles of Dave Chappelle and Carlos Mencia)
The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
Live in Christ's love, the Spirit's empowerment, and the Father's grace.
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 8/10/2006 9:38 AM (GMT -6) | | | Meph: I will say this straight out...and again. I don't think that the Church currently has the level of "COMMON GOOD" sensitivity and moral will to oppose the multinational corporations on a significant level...even through "non-political" means. I don't say that happily.
Jeff: But doesn't that state of affairs limit our choices as Christians, Meph? This is the reality that grounds the old saying, "If you won't keep the 10 commandments, you will keep the 10,000 commandments." The idea is this: If people refuse to do good volitionally by practicing the golden rule in wisdom, the government will issue 10,000 hair-brain laws that do little or nothing towards deterring real evil or promoting true good. But they have to do something, so they just generate silly and unjust laws.
I guess what I'm saying is this: the people get the government they deserve. But that government, amazingly enough, is still better than no government at all. But the complexity of such a system is such that it makes any one person's role in it very dicey. And the closer one's role is to the use of real force, the greater certainty one must have of the correctness of the policy of that role. For force used wrongly is grievous.
Meph: Doc makes it very clear that all "good" people should want just laws and effective (not overbearing) governmental checks that will help the human condition.
Jeff: Do you know why he thinks this? I don't understand his rationale. Chist summed up the Sermon by saying "whatsoever you wish men do unto you...," he also said something similar about the two great commandments. Paul says the same thing about loving your neighbor entailing the specific commandments. So if
1) all rules and/or guidelines are grounded in the principle of love/benevolence, and
2) radical pacifism is one such rule and/or guideline,
why would we want anyone to practice the forceful means of the state? Why would good people, IOW, ever want anyone to do evil? Does he not believe that all correct practice is good?
Or is it because there is nothing intrinsically wrong with force, per se, and yet Christians are in a unique situation of having to restrain from doing good in this sense for a greater good attained by pacifism that only Christians can attain to? If so, what is that greater good that Christians can attain by pacifism that they would surrender, otherwise? I'm still not getting it. Just what is his rationale?
Post Edited (jefscott) : 8/10/2006 9:56:53 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/10/2006 10:53 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I grew up in a house that had pictures of both JFK and MLK Jr. hanging on our wall alongside a peace sign. We took pride in being open minded on social issues without prejudice towards our fellow brothers and sisters. (Yes Laika, I’m guilty of voting for Carter not only in 78 but also 82.). After completely surrendering to Christ, my outlook on life and politics changed. I think that as we mature in our walk with Christ we should humble ourselves and move away from the political outrage, the hate, and the idolatry of letting such anger overcome us (anger is only looked favorably upon when it’s in the form of righteous indignation).
So when you ask, What do "Conservatism" and "Liberalism" even MEAN? I see them as two sides to the same coin, each with closed minds to each other. I see Christians toss the coin back to Caesar with either blatant corruption or a nonchalant altered toss, both seeking a favorable landing with their preferable side up.
When I say I'm apolitical, I’m just saying that in some ways government is as worthless as a hole festered oven mitt, depend on it and you‘ll get burned.
We, as Christian people being the body of Christ, reflect the church at large. Similar, politics in America (being a democracy and republic) is a direct reflection of who we are as Americans, If we truly want to change the heart of America then we should start by changing the heart of Americans. It’s by transforming each individual heart of America that will change the face of the nation. It’s not about us “powering over” or “powering under” anyone, to the contrary, it’s about relinquishing ones power of the will and surrendering to Jesus Christ, this is my idea of “pacifism”. “Powering Under” America might make a great 2008 campaign slogan but it’s not very Biblical. I know of only one Person that possesses such miraculous transforming power, power to transform from the inside out, to take murder out of the murderer. The “kernel of piercing truth” is not me, its not you, it's not Christian Socialism, it's not Conservatism or Liberalism nor is it Boydism. The “kernel of piercing truth” is Jesus Christ, the King of Kings.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. Post Edited (sparknheart) : 8/10/2006 11:06:55 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 8/10/2006 12:21 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Appreciate your bravery, Corey. No doubt, yo. Some of my emerging thoughts. For me, talking about public policy has very little to NOTHING to do with the Kingdom of God being built through the use of our government. It has to do with finding a structure that will maximize human and ecological flourishing and minimize human and ecological suffering. The difference is between the GOOD and the BEAUTIFUL, just like Doc says. Doc makes it very clear that all "good" people should want just laws and effective (not overbearing) governmental checks that will help the human condition. It's just that we cannot directly ALIGN this with the spread of the Kingdom of God. In my mind, living in love is a beautiful reality that goes WAY BEYOND the requirements of a just, humane society...but it doesn't accept LESS than a just, humane society...at least in the heart. As I think about it, I think that one of the deepest threats to the human condition in America is the rise of powerful multinational corporations and conglomerations. Our society, by and large, doesn't have the political will to combat some of the dehumanizing tendencies of the profit-making giants. (Not even the Church!) Because of this, I believe that we need a sufficient government that can actively manage and check some of these businesses. To be sure, there is MUCH that could be evaluated and corrected about our current domestic policies. But given the way our country continually socializes itself into believing some aspects of the "American Dream", I would expect at least some of the problems that we've been having. I will say this straight out...and again. I don't think that the Church currently has the level of "COMMON GOOD" sensitivity and moral will to oppose the multinational corporations on a significant level...even through "non-political" means. I don't say that happily.
I haven't had a lot of time to respond to this thread or any board for that matter as I am working 15 and 17 hour days plus everyday of the week.
Suffice to say, politics and the political realm are different from church life, just as it is different from every other area of life such as family, business, science and a host of other differentiated institutions and responsibilities. No institution, government or otherwise should or even can legitimately exercise authority. Therefore, responsibilities ought to be framed with the clear reference to specific institutions, persons or relationships that is competent to fulfill THAT responsibility. Hence, any calls that say that government or "the people" can promote some good cause or stop some kind of evil should be questioned because government or the people cannot COMPETENTLY address every problem or promote every good cause. The government or "the people" are not omnicompetent. Government should "provide the space" to allow for each of these other institutions to do "what they do"--which in turn will allow for human flourishing. So. THATS it's role. This is not about "building the Kingdom of God through government." It's simply recognizing government's role and it's limits.
Secondly, on the one hand there is agreement between me and you guys about government "speaking for God." On the other hand, law and public life are shaped by the deepest presuppositions on which people depend in various communities of faith regardless of whether those faiths are oriented toward deity or not.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/10/2006 6:03 PM (GMT -6) | |
sparknheart said...
I grew up in a house that had pictures of both JFK and MLK Jr. hanging on our wall alongside a peace sign. We took pride in being open minded on social issues without prejudice towards our fellow brothers and sisters. (Yes Laika, I’m guilty of voting for Carter not only in 78 but also 82.). After completely surrendering to Christ, my outlook on life and politics changed. I think that as we mature in our walk with Christ we should humble ourselves and move away from the political outrage, the hate, and the idolatry of letting such anger overcome us (anger is only looked favorably upon when it’s in the form of righteous indignation).
So when you ask, What do "Conservatism" and "Liberalism" even MEAN? I see them as two sides to the same coin, each with closed minds to each other. I see Christians toss the coin back to Caesar with either blatant corruption or a nonchalant altered toss, both seeking a favorable landing with their preferable side up.
When I say I'm apolitical, I’m just saying that in some ways government is as worthless as a hole festered oven mitt, depend on it and you‘ll get burned.
We, as Christian people being the body of Christ, reflect the church at large. Similar, politics in America (being a democracy and republic) is a direct reflection of who we are as Americans, If we truly want to change the heart of America then we should start by changing the heart of Americans. It’s by transforming each individual heart of America that will change the face of the nation. It’s not about us “powering over” or “powering under” anyone, to the contrary, it’s about relinquishing ones power of the will and surrendering to Jesus Christ, this is my idea of “pacifism”. “Powering Under” America might make a great 2008 campaign slogan but it’s not very Biblical. I know of only one Person that possesses such miraculous transforming power, power to transform from the inside out, to take murder out of the murderer. The “kernel of piercing truth” is not me, its not you, it's not Christian Socialism, it's not Conservatism or Liberalism nor is it Boydism. The “kernel of piercing truth” is Jesus Christ, the King of Kings.
Interesting Mark,
Didn't know you considered yourself apolitical. Didn't we meet at some political gathering ... can't remember the name of the hosting organization in Indiana, but I thought it had some sort of political agenda you aligned yourself with.... I could be wrong though. Anyway, by stating "the kernel of piercing truth is Jesus Christ, King of Kings" you're carrying a "Boydian" banner my friend. Power under america is NOT the message. Power under each other (as in love one another as I have loved you - ALL people/nations included) IS the "Boydian" message.
selah Post Edited (selah) : 8/10/2006 9:21:31 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 8/10/2006 6:26 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm not sure how a person can be "apolitical" unless the person is completely apathetic about the state of the society in which one finds oneself. Being "political" isn't limited to a title, is it? If we believe the world ought to be a certain way, we have a political stance about how the world ought to be... right? How is it possible to be apolitical and a pacifist at the same time?
I'm confused... that's why I'm looking in dictionaries regarding the words, "political", "polity", and "apolitical" and just getting more confused about this discussion.
Even if you think that Jesus should be the ruler of the world, isn't that a political position?
[As Bill and Ted approach Socrates]:
Bill: "Yo Ted, say something profound, dude."
Ted: "Oh, yeah. Right. All we are...is dust in the wind dude."
Bill: ..."Dust".... "Wind" ... "Duuuude".
Socrates: (gasping in awe) "Like sands through the hour glass, so are the days of our lives."Post Edited (Violin for God) : 8/10/2006 6:29:41 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 8/10/2006 7:35 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Jesus was definitely not apolitical.
Yes. Jesus refuses to take up the sword and he lays down his life as a suffering servant, but Jesus said these things not to renunounce politics, but in order to fulfill God's Kingdom on God's terms. Matt 26:57 shows the contrast. The leaders are angry that they can't do away with Christ, the high priest commands him, under oath, to "tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God." Jesus finally speaks and says, "Yes, it is as you say. But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." There is a conjunction of Messiah and Son of Man. They are one and the same-God's ruler, God's judge-to whom they will have to give account. Also of note is the way Jesus rules and proclaims judgment in the face of the unjust judges.
So. Jesus offends those who think that they hold highest authority on earth. But he goes BEYOND offense. His government is a government that subverts, by setting up a different way. It pulls down existing powers and structures of which the biggest subversion of all is to dethrone the ruler and politics and put them in their limited place under the sovereignty of God.
Not too apolitical if you ask me.
Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 8/11/2006 9:07 AM (GMT -6) | |
Humphrey Bogart said...Just to confuse you all, in Australia the main conservative party is called the Liberal Party. www.liberal.org.au/ Hey taxi driver, howz it going?
Seen this yet?
never say you're bitter, jack
bitter makes the worst things
come back
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/11/2006 9:09 AM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...
Good stuff, Mark, and funny! "... a hole festered oven mitt, depend on it and you‘ll get burned" made me LOL. Thanks Corey,
Funny, but that’s a true experiential analogy I used. My wife and I are blessed to have a large house, so quite often we have the honor of hosting Holiday dinners. Over the years I have taken the turkey out of the oven and would sometimes let out a loud scream. Ouch! I would rush to find a quick place to set down the hot tray as my finger was burnt from a hole in the oven mitt. On cue, my wife could be heard in the background laughing at me. Through my anger I would try and hide my embarrassment for being sooooo stupid. “STUPID OVEN MITT!.  Yeah, ha, ha.
Well I’m happy to report that this year, I finally had enough of that “stupid” oven mitt and I tossed it in the garbage.
Love is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game. | | Back to Top | | |
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