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Goriller
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Date Joined Oct 2001
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   Posted 4/24/2007 7:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Was this Christian TV talk show host acting unbiblically?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiQwWyUKx6M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC2hzjclUCY
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Tom
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   Posted 4/24/2007 8:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I thought Bob was right-on logically and factually. I don't think it's helpful to his own ends to call her a fruitcake, even though she contradicted herself left and right. It was sad. There is a truth about non-judging that she was aiming at, but a) she doesn't know what it is or how it's different from making judgment calls (which we do all the time). I think he would have gotten to that distinction eventually had she enough sense to follow along. But she just didn't have it.

Crazy,
Tom


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 4/24/2007 9:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tommy what do you mean "right on factually?" Personally, I don't believe that most of the general population works within that pure relativistic framework which she espoused. It's as if Bobby is arguing against an extreme position and of course he would "win" such an argument. That seems almost as bad as calling her a fruit cake.

By the way I'm posting more responses just so I can see my avatar up there. Nice isn't?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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Tom
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   Posted 4/24/2007 11:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Nice avatar!

I just meant that his line of reasoning was right on. She said, "Don't judge," and then proceded to judge. He called her on it. She didn't get it. Couldn't see it. She said, "No one can know what's right and wrong." He asked if judging was wrong. She said yeah. He said, "So we CAN know what's right and wrong." She didn't get it. He asked if it was wrong to rape a woman. She said yes. When he exposed that as inconsistent with her claim that we can never know that something is wrong, she changed her tune and said it wasn't right OR wrong.

I agree that most of the general population doesn't work within the pure relativistic framework she represented. She couldn't or wouldn't see that. That's what frustrated him I think.

Tom


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 4/25/2007 5:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I know it's sweeet! I'm using it based on the "All is God contingently expressed?" thread. Kinda based on One's avatar but not because I am in whole hearted agreement with his thoughts over there. Ahhhh...screw it. Let's hijack this thread just to talk about my avatar.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
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   Posted 4/25/2007 10:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Wow.  Man.  My avatar looks excellent.  Did you know that this is THE FIRST EVER avatar I've had on this discussion board after all these years???  I think Dwayne's is old school. biggrin  Kinda looks like a bug.  Yucky.  Mine's contemporary, abstract, post-modern and sleek look'n.  It's everything you'd want in an avatar. To look like.  To be.  D, if you want to borrow it you can, but then I think it would only serve confuse people to do that.  So, don't bother.

Anyhoo...I thought about starting another topic but thought that this would actually be appropriate within the context of the YouTube vids.  Basically, the "fruitcake" on the other end of the line was declaring that we as a society have this "unlimited right to happiness."

Now, yesterday, I watched, "Walk the Line."  It was the story of Johnny Cash and basically his love affair with his second wife June.  There has been much criticism about the portrayal of his first wife, Vivian.  In real life, Vivian's daughter is reported to have walked out of the movie five times as she thought that her mother was portrayed negatively (of which I agree, she was portrayed that way, though it seems that that really wasn't the case with her in real life).  Having said that, it seemed as though she was a "drag" on Mr. Cash and he ends up finding the love of his life in June of which she brings him hope and redemption.  At the same time he is screwing around on Vivian and the kids,  It's your basic Hollywood, "I've found the one! And it was you all along and not my wife" kinda story.  "You're my destiny!"  It really plays on the heart-strings.

Now.  The question I have is one of balance between human flourishing and our "right to happiness."  At what point does some behavior which turns from the noble desire to flourish and be all that God wants you to be, become a "right to happiness" in which the lives of others are sacrificed? Check out this essay by C.S. Lewis and tell me what you think.  This post and essay by C.S. Lewis lines right up with what this woman in the YouTube vids is getting at--unbridled behavior for what one may call "human flourishing" but another calls "the right to happiness." 

P.S.  I've noticed that some of Greg's sermons are based on this assumption and I would like to see that analyzed.   C.S. Lewis' essay.

----------------

We Have No Right To Happiness

"After all," said Clare, "they had a right to happiness."

We were discussing something that once happened in our own neighborhood. Mr. A. had deserted Mrs. A. and got his divorce in order to marry Mrs. B., who had likewise got her divorce in order to marry Mr. A. And there was certainly no doubt that Mr. A. and Mrs. B. were very much in love with one another. If they continued to be in love, and if nothing went wrong with their health or their income, they might reasonably expect to be very happy.

It was equally clear that they were not happy with their old partners. Mrs. B. had adored her husband at the outset. But then he got smashed up in the war. It was thought he had lost his virility, and it was known that he had lost his job. Life with him was no longer what Mrs. B. had bargained for. Poor Mrs. A., too. She had lost her looks -- and all her liveliness. It might be true, as some said, that she consumed herself by bearing his children and nursing him through the long illness that overshadowed their earlier married life.

You mustn't, by the way, imagine that A. was the sort of man who nonchalantly threw a wife away like the peel of an orange he'd sucked dry. Her suicide was a terrible shock to him. We all knew this, for he told us so himself. "But what could I do?" he said. "A man has a right to happiness. I had to take my one chance when it came."

I went away thinking about the concept of a "right to happiness."

At first this sounds to me as odd as a right to good luck. For I believe -- whatever one school of moralists may say -- that we depend for a very great deal of our happiness or misery on circumstances outside all human control. A right to happiness doesn't, for me, make much more sense than a right to be six feet tall, or to have a millionaire for your father or to get good weather whenever you want to have a picnic.

I can understand a right as a freedom guaranteed me by the laws of society I live in. Thus, I have a right to travel along the public roads because society gives me that freedom; that's what we mean by calling the roads "public." I can also understand a right as a claim guaranteed me by the laws, and correlative to an obligation on someone else's part. If I have a right to receive £100 from you, this is another way of saying that you have a duty to pay me £100. If the laws allow Mr. A. to desert his wife and seduce his neighbour's wife, then, by definition, Mr. A. has a legal right to do so, and we need bring in no talk about "happiness."

But of course that was not what Clare meant. She meant that he had not only a legal but moral right to act as he did. In other words, Clare is -- or would be if she thought it out -- a classical moralist after the style of Thomas Aquinas, Grotius, Hooker and Locke. She believes that behind the law of the state there is a Natural Law.

I agree with her. I hold this conception to be basic to all civilization. Without it, the actual laws of the state become an absolute, as in Hegel. They cannot be criticized because there is no norm against which they should be judged.

The ancestry of Clare's maxim, "They have a right to happiness," is august. In words that are cherished by all civilized men, but especially by Americans, it has been laid down that one of the rights of man is a right to "the pursuit of happiness." And now we get to the real point.

What did the writers of that august declaration mean?

It is quite certain what they did not mean. The did not mean that man was entitled to pursue happiness by any and every means -- including, say, murder, rape, robbery, treason and fraud. No society could be built on such a basis.

They meant "to pursue happiness by all lawful means"; that it, by all means which the Law of Nature eternally sanctions and which the law of the nation shall sanction.

Admittedly, this seems at first to reduce their maxim to the tautology that men (in pursuit of happiness) have a right to do whatever they have a right to do. But tautologies, seen against their proper historical context, are not always barren tautologies. The declaration is primarily a denial of the political principles which long governed Europe: a challenge flung down to the Austrian and Russian empire, to England before the Reform Bills, to Bourbon, France. It demands that whatever means of pursuing happiness are lawful for any should be lawful or all; that "man", not men of some particular caste, class, status or religion, should be free to use them. In a century when this is being unsaid by nation after nation and party after party, let us not call it a barren tautology.

But the question as to what means are "lawful" -- what methods of pursuing happiness are either morally permissible by the law of nature or should be declared legally permissible by the legislature of a particular nation -- remains exactly where it did. And on that question I disagree with Clare. I don't think it is obvious that people have the unlimited "right to happiness" which she suggests.

For one thing, I believe that Clare, when she says "happiness", means simply and solely "sexual happiness". Partly because women like Clare never use the word "happiness" in any other sense. But also because I never heard Clare talk about the "right" to any other kind. she was rather leftist in her politics, and would have been scandalized if anyone had defended the actions of a ruthless man-eating tycoon on the ground that his happiness consisted in making money and he was pursuing his happiness. She was also a rabid teetotaler; I never heard her excuse an alcoholic because he was happy when he was drunk.

A good many of Clare's friends, and especially her female friends, often felt -- I've heard them say so -- that their own happiness would be perceptively increased by boxing her ears. I very much doubt if this would have brought her theory of a right to happiness into play.

Clare, in fact, is doing what the whole western world seems to me to have been doing for the last 40-odd years. When I was a youngster, all the progressive people were saying, "Why all this prudery? Let us treat sex just as we treat all our other impulses." I was simple-minded enough to believe they meant what they said. I have since discovered that they meant exactly the opposite. They meant that sex was to be treated as no other impulse in our nature has ever been treated by civilized people. All the others, we admit, have to be bridled. Absolute obedience to your instinct for self-preservation is what we call cowardice; to your acquisitive impulse, avarice. Even sleep must be resisted if you're a sentry. But every unkindness and breach of faith seems to be condoned provided that the object aimed at is "four bare legs in a bed."

It is like having a morality in which stealing fruit is considered wrong -- unless you steal nectarines.

And if you protest against this view you are usually met with chatter about the legitimacy and beauty and sanctity of "sex" and accused of harbouring some Puritan prejudice against it as something disreputable or shameful. I deny the charge. Foam-born Venus . . . golden Aphrodite . . . Our Lady of Cyprus . . . I never breathed a word against you. If I object to boys who steal my nectarines, must I be supposed to disapprove of nectarines in general? Or even of boys in general? It might, you know, be stealing that I disapproved of.

The real situation is skillfully concealed by saying that the question of Mr. A.'s "right" to desert his wife is one of "sexual morality". Robbing an orchard is not an offense against some special morality called "fruit morality". It is an offense against honesty. Mr. A.'s action is an offense against good faith (to solemn promises), against gratitude (toward one to whom he was deeply indebted) and against common humanity.

Our sexual impulses are thus being put in a position of preposterous privilege. The sexual motive is taken to condone all sorts of behaviour which, if it had any other end in view, would be condemned as merciless, treacherous and unjust.

Now though I see no good reason for giving sex this privilege, I think I see a strong cause. It is this.

It is part of the nature of strong erotic passion -- as distinct from a transient fit of appetite -- that it makes more towering promises than any other emotion. No doubt all of our desires make promises, but not so impressively. To be in love involves the almost irresistible conviction that one will go on being in love until one dies, and that possession of the beloved will confer, not merely frequent ecstasies, but settled, fruitful, deep-rooted, lifelong happiness. Hence all seems to be at stake. If we miss this chance we shall have lived in vain. At the very thought of such a doom we sink into fathomless depths of self-pity.

Unfortunately, these promises are found often to be quite untrue. Every experienced adult knows this to be so as regards all erotic passions (except the one he himself is feeling at the moment). We discount the world-without-end pretensions of our friends' amours easily enough. We know that such things sometimes last -- and sometimes don't. And when they do last, this is not because they promised at the outset to do so. When two people achieve lasting happiness, this is not solely because they are great lovers but because they are also -- I must put it crudely -- good people; controlled, loyal, fair-minded, mutually adaptable people.

If we establish a "right to (sexual) happiness" which supersedes all the ordinary rules of behaviour, we do so not because of what our passion shows itself to be in experience but because of what it professes to be while we are in the grip of it. Hence, while the bad behaviour is real and works miseries and degradations, the happiness which was the object of the behaviour turns out again and again to be illusory. Everyone (except Mr. A. and Mrs. B.) knows that Mr. A. in a year or so may have the same reason for deserting his new wife as for deserting his old. He will feel again that all is at stake. He will see himself again as the great lover, and his pity for himself will exclude all pity for the woman.

Two further points remain.

One is this. A society in which conjugal infidelity is tolerated must always be in the long run a society adverse to women. Women, whatever a few male songs and satires may say to the contrary, are more naturally monogamous than men; it is a biological necessity. Where promiscuity prevails, they will therefore always be more often the victims than the culprits. Also, domestic happiness is more necessary to them than to us. And the quality by which they most easily hold a man, their beauty, decreases every year after they have come to maturity, but this does not happen to those qualities of personality -- women don't really care twopence about our looks -- by which we hold women. Thus in the ruthless war of promiscuity, women are at a double disadvantage. They play for high stakes and are also more likely to lose. I have no sympathy with moralists who frown at the increasing crudity of female provocativeness. These signs of desperate competition fill me with pity.

Secondly, though the "right to happiness" is chiefly claimed for the sexual impulse, it seems to me impossible that the matter should stay there. The fatal principle, once allowed in that department, must sooner or later seep through our whole lives. We thus advance toward a state or society in which not only each man but every impulse in each man claims carte blanche. And then, though our technological skill may help us survive a little longer, our civilization will have died at heart, and will -- one dare not even add "unfortunately" -- be swept away.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
 
   Posted 4/25/2007 12:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The whole issue of whether or not Christians should judge is so tired...simply because to even make such a statement is make a judgment. It would be far more practical and of greater benefit to ask how and when and whom we should be judging.


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Similitude
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   Posted 4/25/2007 8:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Excellent article by Lewis, Brandon. Appreciate that!


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 4/26/2007 10:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

<-----but do you like my avatar?  Sweet eh?

Actually that essay was from "God in the Dock."  I think that article could tie in with such issues as abortion and euthanasia as well.  Would like to know what others may think.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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Similitude
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   Posted 4/26/2007 5:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It is, indeed, a mighty fine avatar!!cheers


 

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