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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 11/5/2007 1:12 PM (GMT -6)

You can read the whole blog here concerning this painting.

Though I think Greg is pretty much on target, the problem that I have is that it seems rather apolitical. That is, what would foot washing look like carried out in real tangible ways? Real tangible policies? Surely it has to do with justice. But it seems to me that the picture has no real bite to it where it counts. Some of that washing of feet may look Democratic or Conservative, etc.

An acquaintance of mine quoted Desmond Tutu saying this: "I’m glad I’m not God. …God has to welcome all of God’s children – bin Laden, Bush, Saddam Hussein, all of them." It sounds as if Desmond Tutu should be the one in that picture washing feet. And that's the other weakness I see with this picture. Isn't there this kind of responsibility absolved by putting Jesus in that position when he calls us to be there?

When I first saw this picture I immediately started thinking of other caricatures such as Bush washing Osama bin Laden's feet, etc. But another caricature could be Jesus as king of world leaders, maybe sitting there with a crown on his head handing out responsibilities to each.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 11/5/2007 9:56 PM (GMT -6)

Brandon: That is, what would foot washing look like carried out in real tangible ways?

and...

But another caricature could be Jesus as king of world leaders, maybe sitting there with a crown on his head handing out responsibilities to each.

Jeff: So true, Brandon. That's why I can't understand why Greg says stuff like:

Obviously, the protesters believe that Jesus would not wash Osama Bin Laden’s feet.

I don't see how one can conclude that, at all. That picture, given the current political climate, is subject to various interpretations. So I wouldn't presume to conclude that "the protestors believe that Jesus would not wash Osama Bin Laden's feet." Granted, I wouldn't complain to the mall no matter how I interpreted it. But for Greg to find his conclusion as obvious is hard for me to understand.

Tom
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Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/6/2007 11:51 AM (GMT -6)

Good points. I think perhaps for some, Brandon, it might be true that having Jesus wash their feet is a way to avoid their doing the same. I don't know. I didn't go there in my mind with this painting. I thought to myself almost the opposite. Jesus WAS in that position and it's from that position that he calls us to join him, to follow him and do the same. I think Greg's point (and I agree with it) is that we seldom (never?) do what we can't imagine or invision Christ doing. People today (just like Peter then) object at Christ doing it precisely because THEY wouldn't do it. Christ's taking that position had the effect of exposing their unwillingness. So I think that convincing themselves that Jesus wouldn't stoop to serve this or that type of person becomes their way to absolve themselves for not serving those types of people.

I've ran into this very attitude too often (among the literally hundreds of churches that I've shared in about being a missionary in the Middle East among Arab Muslims). Khomeini died on a Saturday night. I remember, because the next Sunday morning I was speaking in a church in Jersey. An elder in the church commented on the news of Khomeni's death, "Praise God! We ought nuke 'em all. Wish they were all gone." That was extreme. More often people would come up to me afterwards and say, "Thanks for coming. I never saw Arabs or Muslims like that. I confess that don't love them and don't pray for them. Didn't think I had too. It just never occured to me. They're the bad guys" and so forth.

So I like the painting. Like it very much. The jolt it needs to make in most peoples' worldview is worth whatever misunderstanding the few might have.

Tom

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 11/6/2007 11:56 AM (GMT -6)

Yes, I like the painting too...for what it DOES say. I don't like it for what it doesn't say.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 11/6/2007 12:03 PM (GMT -6)

By the way, I liked the picture not so much because I couldn't see Christ washing political leaders of every stripe's feet. I liked it because it does expose alignment of our faith to partisan politics. However, my thinking on this was that it is akin to some of the talk that we hear about concerning the atonement these days. If Jesus has "paid it all" and we aren't guilty (our names are moved to the correct side of God's ledger) what is there left for US to do? What basis for moral behavior remains for us?

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 11/6/2007 12:07 PM (GMT -6)

Right. I see your point Bro. Right on.

T

feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 11/7/2007 7:29 PM (GMT -6)

I have long since written Gregory Boyd off as someone who trives on attention and contraversy. Therefore I see this as simply other in his attempts to stir the pot. Too bad. He once was a very compelling writer.

BTW Greg millions have not been murdered for heresies. That is the lie of the world. Stop buying into it.

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 11/7/2007 9:35 PM (GMT -6)

I don't even know what the picture says. That depends upon the author's intent. I could mean several things. I see no point in jolting someone with equivocal meaning in a time when political battles tend to color how folks interpret things like that.

But in all seriousness, I really do think that a business that puts up a picture that lends itself, in the current political climate, to misinterpretation is pretty much asking for that misinterpretation and the response that goes with it.

Christ seemingly washed the disciples feet ONE time for a specific purpose. I have no reason to believe he washed any one else's feet. Why, then, would I even assume that he would wash Bin Laden's feet if he were here, now? Granted, Bin Laden isn't any less worthy of a foot-washing from Christ than were the disciples, in an absolute sense. But neither were the Pharisees, and yet he apparently never washed their feet.

Consequently, the picture literally lends itself to misinterpretation. It seems, to me, to suggest that the author thinks he/she knows something about what Christ would do, if he were here, than I have reason to believe he/she does. And I could be wrong. I just don't, for the life of me, see how the picture communicates anything meaningful about what Christ would do if he were here.

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted Yesterday 10:16 PM (GMT -6)

Someone else, said that on another board. They said: I dunno. I'm trying to imagine Jesus washing the feet of one of the scribes or Pharisees. It seems to me that, when dealing with people in the here and now, different kinds of approaches may be required for different people. To say that Jesus would wash EVERYONE'S feet indiscriminately may be to miss the point, I think.

Brandon

It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted Today 12:45 AM (GMT -6)

I'm not sure which is more bothersome to me, the fact that Gregory Boyd frames the question in a way that precludes any serious discussion of the issue, that he assumes that, as a Christian, you should be loving as he does (and as he defines love) or you are not really loving, or the fact that he uses scripture for his own beliefs rather than let scripture speak to us.
Jesus did not wash his enemies feet; nor does that part of scripture call us to do so. Rather, he washed his disciples feet and toward them now to do so for each other. The scripture is talking about loving your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, growing into a deeper servant relationship with each other. Not your enemies. You cannot love someone who you are not in relationship with. We cannot love our enemies in that sense. Rather, we are called to do loving acts towards them.
Would I wash Osmasa's feet? Of course not. I'd jail him. Hes a criminal, a murderer. Once again, Gregory Body confuses our private obligations with our public ones as Christians. And did anyone think that perhaps Bin Laden doesn't want his feet washed by us heathens?

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted Today 7:15 AM (GMT -6)

Feelin: The scripture is talking about loving your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, growing into a deeper servant relationship with each other. Not your enemies. You cannot love someone who you are not in relationship with. We cannot love our enemies in that sense. Rather, we are called to do loving acts towards them.

And...

And did anyone think that perhaps Bin Laden doesn't want his feet washed by us heathens?

Jeff: Excellent points. Even God can't relate to all humans the same because of alienations (in the forms of dysfunctional shame, hardness and impenitence of heart, etc.) that function as relational impasses. It seems to me, since there is so much of a tendency to level all things Christian to various forms of egalitarianism never countenanced in scripture, it is perfectly reasonable to think that the author of the picture has something like that in mind. Which brings me to...

Brandon: To say that Jesus would wash EVERYONE'S feet indiscriminately may be to miss the point, I think.

Jeff: Sure, it misses what your interpretation of THE point is. But I'm still wondering how you get THE point of a picture. I could see how you, Zach, and Greg could all see differently what THE point of the picture is. As far as I can tell, it could just be equivalent to a Christian anti-war poster. I mean, the people in line for the foot washing seem to be politically prestigious folks-not people from various backgrounds with no political clout, like the disciples. Maybe that's important to the intended meaning of the picture in the author's mind. Maybe it IS a political statement. How could you tell from the picture alone?

Sahid
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Total Posts : 2013

Posted 11/21/2007 5:05 AM (GMT -6)

There is certainly opportunity for this painting to cause unfortunate problems. But Jesus washed Judas' feet.

When I look at it this is what I think. While the world divides up, which side does Jesus take? Did Jesus side with the Jews or the Romans? Does the question even make sense?

And Feelin, I think this touches on your remark. "Gregory Boyd frames the question in a way that precludes any serious discussion." I kinda agree. He is declaring that sort of discussion moot. If you have chosen not to resist an evil man, questions of how best to resist evil men are secondary at best. It's like asking a Hindu how he likes his steak. I don't think Greg stops the conversation. He has his debatable opinions on what the best course is for America in Iraq for instance. But when Jesus says, "He who is without sin cast the first stone," there may well have been observers who were frustrated at his stubborn insistence on re-framing the question. Surely, following Christ implies some kind of paradigm shift.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Post Edited (Sahid) : 11/21/2007 5:46:48 AM (GMT-6)

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 11/21/2007 6:53 AM (GMT -6)

Zach: He has his debatable opinions on what the best course is for America in Iraq for instance.

Jeff: It's precisely his comments on Iraq that make Greg so confusing. If he was as clear as you, I could see what he was getting at. But it's precisely because there ARE people as confusing as Greg that makes it to where a mere picture is subject to intrepretation. If there weren't people with views as diverse as mine, yours, Gregs, etc, I would tend to see less possible interpretations of the picture. Then I wouldn't have problems with his statements like "OBVIOUSLY, the protestors believe ..." But as long as there are multiple ways to look at things, there IS no such OBVIOUS belief that can be inferred from mere protest. Heck, it was Greg himself that questioned the propriety of protests such as the one Tom was in. And yet you see that protest as a good. Greg is just confusing.

Post Edited (jefscott) : 11/21/2007 5:58:02 AM (GMT-6)

Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 11/21/2007 7:19 AM (GMT -6)

Well I confess being out of the loop. I don't know what Greg said and I don't know what protest Tom was in. What happened there? I myself am frustrated with Greg at points. But I think I know where the trajectory of his thought is headed. Whatever. I've been charitable in the past with arguments I basically disagreed with. Now I'm happy to be charitable with someone who I'm fairly to close to agreeing with.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 11/21/2007 6:54 PM (GMT -6)

Remember when Tom was in the protest march/parade in the Middle East against Israeli action against Palestinians? Shortly after that, Greg posted about how those kinds of things can be misinterpreted and, therefore, counter-productive. That's all I'm saying about this picture and Greg's lumping all the "protestors" of the picture into one bag. In a social climate as diverse as ours, criticism without clarity is usually counter-productive. It tends to be perceived as an insult without a real understanding of just what is being criticized.

Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013

Posted 11/23/2007 3:30 AM (GMT -6)

If I understand correctly what you are criticizing, then I join you. We should consider the probable perceptions of others. But Jesus' words and actions were fairly regularly misinterpreted. His parables, especially in Luke, seem to invite misinterpretation.

Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968

Posted 11/25/2007 8:28 PM (GMT -6)

Yes, but Jesus, per the gospel accounts, actually intended for certain ones to not understand his parables. If that's what Greg is up to, then he's doing a good job. biggrin

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