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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Tearing down walls > (No Subject)
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 11/26/2007 12:33 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Greg: I would even go so far as to suggest that our moral decadence is partly responsible for the wrath we’ve incurred from Muslim extremists. Without in any way condoning their violence, one of the main reasons they see America as “the great Satan” is because of how we’re influencing the rest of the world with our debauchery. It's undeniable that wherever American influence is evidenced, sexual morals loosen. They disdain our “freedom” because to them it's inseparably wrapped up with freedom to have sex outside of marriage. When they hear George Bush announce that we're going to expand "freedom" around the globe, what many hear is Satan announcing he's going to spread debauchery around the globe.
Jeff: Thanks for saying it, Greg. It's about time that someone, in this regard, properly respected the intelligence of conservative Muslims in the Middle East. And I'd go even farther by saying that the Muslim's are hearing correctly in the sense that many western politico's believe that such a culture is part & parcel of a free society (see Texas vs. Lawrence, e.g. where the Court argued that certain amarital sex acts are fundamental human rights inherent in a free society--and they used European legal precedents as grounds).
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 11/26/2007 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | | | Interesting stuff, Zach. I suspect even most moderate Muslims find our culture a bit over-permissive, too. Consequently, when Bush said that terrorists hate us because we're good and because of our freedom, I suspect most moderate Muslims took offence to that (if they heard it). Because though they wouldn't do what terrorists do, they do agree with some of the terrorists' criticisms of permissive, American culture. And I suspect a significant proportion of the citizens of Mid-Eastern countries have no problem with government regulating social behavior according to the Koran.
In short, Greg's comments are on mark. It's probably not that our permissiveness, per se, attracts violent reactions, because Europe is more premissive than we are. It is more likely the fact that we are the most noticeable exporters of the permissive culture. For we give foreign aid to countries who will do our bidding. We fund and militarily man the UN significantly. We advocate abortion in a population control conference in EGYPT, of all countries. And so on ...
Yet so many in the religious right seem to be blind to how Muslims could perceive these American encroachments upon their societies and cultures. Our government advocates representative democracy while trying to manipulate those governments to do OUR bidding according to what's best for OUR economy, etc, irrespective of the consent of those governed there. Thanks again, Greg!
Post Edited (jefscott) : 11/26/2007 6:23:59 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 11/27/2007 7:01 PM (GMT -6) | | | No one's defending wrong actions. It's a matter of the inpropriety of America claiming it is some fine example of virtue to the world. THAT is a joke. To the extent that we are in some respects "better" than other societies, it is because we are wealthier and lucky enough to be heirs of a judaeo-christian worldview that hasn't been quite annihilated yet. But that is IN SPITE of, not BECAUSE of, our own regime, who loves to think of itself as a shining example to the rest of the world. My head swims when I hear politicos say America is the world's last hope. If that's true, God help us.
Oh yeah, I'm reminded by some that America, unlike other countries, has churches on every corner. That's what makes the state-of-affairs so ridiculous. WHERE MUCH IS GIVEN, MUCH IS REQUIRED. I'm not seeing in America the correlation between what is given and what is lived-out, frankly.
Moreover, scripture seems to make it quite clear that people other than ourselves can be complicit in our own sins. For example, both Jesus and Paul warn us of being stumbling-blocks to others (several verses come to mind). Both Jesus and Paul speak of shared responsibility for some sexual behavior of spouses. Jesus, e.g., says that a man who puts away his wife for any other ground than fornication CAUSES her to commit adultry. Paul, likewise, tells spouses to not defraud one another lest our spouses be tempted in their incontinence. It's just not true that responsibility for actions can't be SHARED. And that being the case, I find it hard to believe that America, because of its policies, is NOT jointly responsible for plenty of wrong-doing.
Post Edited (jefscott) : 11/27/2007 7:05:06 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 11/28/2007 11:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Who else, besides politicians (particularly those wanting to get elected or re-elected is claiming that America is a fine fine example of virtue to the world? Anybody saying that is nuts! I don't hear preachers saying it. I don't hear the common joe on the street saying it. I don't hear Christians or Christian organizations saying it.
I mean, it was Falwell's purpose in having started the Moral Majority to proclaim that we are loosing our morals to liberalism and what have you, and that we need to get back to them, not to conquer the world or to tell other countries how aweful they are, but to keep our butts out of hot water, as a country, with God. Further, Christian political organizations, like the ACLJ certainly don't believe we are the moral shining light on the hill, and neither do informative Christian news sources, such as World Net Daily. The message coming out of Christianity is quite the opposite.
Clearly, it's Washington (in the broad sense of the term) who is so influencial in spreading these ridiculous lies about American being a great moral example.
Finally, Christianity is NOT bent on world conquest; it is bent on spreading the gospel to the world. Anybody reading even half the Bible will see pretty clearly and pretty quickly that there isin't going to be, nor should there be, an attempt for world conquest by Christianity. (Yes, there's always a few radical groups out there, but they hardly count here.)
Many Christians believe Jesus will establish a new kingdom that will, in fact, be conquering over all other kingdoms, but is any Christian going to argue that that isn't His right to do so? In the interim, I, as a Christian, am hardly out for world conquering!
Starkman
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 11/28/2007 4:02 PM (GMT -6) | | | I agree, Starkman. It is our government that is so dead wrong. But I was mainly responding to Feelin's claim that everyone is totally responsible for their own actions. I think the bible is clear that blame for certain actions can be shared by more than a single person. Consequently, Greg's point is not invalidated. And my main contention is that the terrorists are tolerated in the Middle East because the only other alternative moderate Muslims are offered by their governments is western liberalism.
So from their perspective, the terrorists don't look so bad as they do to us. They figure terrorists kill people who elect busy-body governments that meddle in their affairs (and granted, they're no angels) while they figure we're about partial-birth abortion and promiscuous sex. Our government is RESPONSIBLE for this perception. And perceptions matter, JUST like Paul said in several places. Greg may be on thin ice, but he's definitely on ice.
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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 11/28/2007 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Stark: Finally, Christianity is NOT bent on world conquest; it is bent on spreading the gospel to the world. Anybody reading even half the Bible will see pretty clearly and pretty quickly that there isin't going to be, nor should there be, an attempt for world conquest by Christianity. (Yes, there's always a few radical groups out there, but they hardly count here.)
Zach: I'm one of those people who think there are fundamental problems with Islam. That being said, there are plenty of Muslims who would take your defense of Christianity and say the same thing about Islam. By whatever grounds you claim Islam is bent on world conquest, the same could be said of Christianity. I would say that TRUE Christianity is not about world conquest, but I'd be answered my millions of Muslims who say TRUE Islam is not about conquest.
But look at it from their perspective. A Christian man, claiming to be God's appointed ruler of a predominantly Christian nation has been invading and occupying Muslim nations and framing the whole enterprise as a battle between good and evil. It might as well be the book of Joshua all over again. If our positions were reversed, what would we think? Would we be level-headed and charitable enough to recognize that this invader does not speak for his entire religion?
I don't see the point in generalizing about Islam. I can only see it causing further misunderstanding and facilitating more unnecessary death.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
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