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BBBCanada
Registered Member




Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 1/22/2008 6:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thought I would put this blog up here from a website called, slacktivist.  I think this could be a spring board for a discussion on the Cross and the Sword stuff.
 

King and Huck

Today would have been the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s 78th birthday.

That honorific -- "reverend" -- refers to King's vocation as an ordained Baptist minister. He was the pastor of Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala. But King believed his ministry extended beyond his congregation. He believed that God had called him to work for justice not just in the hearts and lives of the believers at Dexter Avenue, but in all of Montgomery, in all of Alabama, in all of America and even, ultimately, in all of the world.

And today, on what would have been the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s 78th birthday, I read this MSNBC account of recent comments by another Baptist minister, former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee on "The Constitution and God's Standards" (thanks, mmackmcc and Tonio, for the tip):

"[Some of my opponents] do not want to change the Constitution, but I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God, and that's what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards," Huckabee said, referring to the need for a constitutional human life amendment and an amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

It's nice to hear Huckabee concede that same-sex marriage is, in fact, constitutional, and thus that outlawing it would require a constitutional amendment, but that's not the main point here.

The main point here is sweet fancy Moses this guy wants to rewrite the Constitution to align it with his idea of "God's standards"!

So, OK then, here's one Baptist minister who sets out to change America, leads a march on the nation's capital, and succeeds in changing the law of the land. And here's another Baptist minister who has set out to change America and to rewrite the laws of the land. So what's the difference? Why do I admire and honor the former while mocking the latter as a theocratic goof? Is it just because one was a liberal and the other a conservative?

Actually, the difference between the two cases is huge. One could almost say these two cases are opposites. King offered secular arguments in sectarian language. Huckabee is offering sectarian arguments in (mostly) secular language.

MlkI mention their use of religious language here because that's what quite a few people get tripped up on. Religious or sectarian language is not itself the issue. Religious language can be a stumbling block in the secular realm of politics because it is not a universally shared language. King's language was steeped in religion. Quotations and allusions from the Bible, from Christian hymns and gospel songs, infused all of King's public speech. Huckabee simply can't compare. Like most of the leaders of the religious right and most of the politicians who court their favor, he is far more likely to talk about the Bible than he is to quote from it. Yet while Huckabee's use of religious language is both rarer and shallower than King's use of such language, it stands out more. It stands out because, as Huckabee uses it, it is exclusively sectarian language. He does not, as King always did, translate that language into shared, nonsectarian principles* because unlike King he has no shared, nonsectarian argument in mind, and unlike King he is not employing this language in service of a shared, nonsectarian agenda.

King's biblical oratory and Huckabee's bibliolatrous babble serve very different arguments. King's argument was ultimately a secular one: a call for justice in accord with the biblical prophets but also, even more so, in accord with the rights guaranteed in the Constitution. Huckabee's argument is ultimately a religious one: a call for the Constitution to be re-written in accord with the (alleged) fiats of his faith.

Those are very different. It is in no way inconsistent to endorse the former while opposing the latter. In fact, it would be inconsistent not to.

Ira Chernus explores this in a Common Dreams essay, "Faith and Politics: Rules of the Game. Chernus asks what we mean when we object to someone "trying to impose their religion" on us:

Was Dr. King trying to impose his religion upon the southern racists when he demanded integration because blacks, too, are “children of God”? More recently, progressive faith-based coalitions have won living wage campaigns. The small businessmen who must pay their help higher wages may well feel that their freedom is curtailed due to someone else’s religious beliefs. Is it fair to complain that “they’re imposing their religion on us” when gay marriage is banned, but not when racial integration or a living wage is required? We need to think this through carefully.

The real conflict between religion and politics in a democracy comes not from what people say or do but how they talk about it and the authority they invoke for it.

The underlying premise of democracy is that we human beings get to choose our laws and policies, not discover them inscribed in the cosmos. The rules a community lives by are produced by that community, and by no one or nothing else. Any law or policy is fair game, as long as it is constitutional and achieved through the democratic process.

... Any belief, statement, or action can be religious if it claims some transcendent or supernatural authority for its truth. Believing in life after death or giving alms to the poor is no more intrinsically religious than praying for a million dollars, dancing around a tree, or robbing a bank. As long as you say “Hey, I didn’t just think this up on my own. I know it’s right and true because some eternal transcendent authority told me so,” it’s religious. And that means it can never be challenged or change.

But challenge and change is the essence of democracy. The only valid authority for political values is the truth discovered by human thought, which is always open to challenge and change. Democracy requires that all the people (either directly or through elected representatives) be thinking and debating about their laws and policies, constantly and endlessly. Every claim made in the political arena must be open to debate without limit.

And the debate must be open to everyone. No one’s ideas can be excluded. So everyone must have equal access to the terms of the discussion. No special terms, like the words and symbols of a particular religion, can be privileged, because that would exclude all the people who don’t find those words and symbols meaningful. The terms have to be secular.

Those who base their political values on their religion have to translate faith statements into value statements that non-believers can evaluate and debate in rational terms. That’s what Dr. King did. ...

The majority of people who bring their faith into politics, on the right as well as the left and center, translate that faith into statements of value couched in more or less secular terms. The critical question is whether they allow open-ended challenge and debate, or whether they claim “Hey, you can’t challenge this because we didn’t make it up. It comes from a transcendent authority than can never change and never be challenged.”

If you hear that, it’s fair to say “Religion out of politics!” Because at that point the only response adherents of another faith or none at all can make is, “I don’t believe you.” Then there’s nothing more to say. The conversation comes to a dead end. And that means the democratic process comes to an end.

Huckabee fails Chernus' "critical question." By stating, explicitly, that he wants "to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards" he is saying, precisely, "You can't challenge this because it comes from a transcendent authority that can never be challenged." His approach is defiantly unconstitutional and profoundly undemocratic. To accuse him of endorsing theocracy here is simply to quote him accurately.

The problem with Huckabee's statement is not that I disagree with him about same-sex marriage. The problem is that Huckabee doesn't care if I, or you, or anyone else, disagrees with him. His approach does not allow disagreement -- indeed, he says, to disagree with him is to disagree with God.

Most opponents of same-sex marriage will try at least to present an argument that relies on something other than their personal conviction that they have heard the voice of God and must impose the divine sanction upon the rest of the world. They will argue, for instance, that same-sex marriage would have bad consequences. By somehow eroding the Institution of Marriage or undermining The Family: Building Block of Society, they argue, same-sex marriage would lead to harmful consequences for society (dogs and cats ... mass hysteria, etc.). Whether or not those arguments make perfect sense, or are consistent with the facts, or bear any relation to the actual consequences, the point here is that those arguments are not sectarian. I think they're wrong, but I do not think they're illegitimate.

Huckabee's argument is illegitimate. He explicitly -- and proudly -- seeks to impose his religion on the rest of us. That's out of bounds. That is theocracy, not democracy. King knew the difference. Huckabee doesn't.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

* King was southern and Baptist, but he was not a Southern Baptist, so unlike Huckabee he was accustomed to viewing the Bible in terms of its larger themes and moral principles. Huckabee comes from the evangelical tradition of "literalism," which thinks primarily in terms of discrete precepts and propositions and has a very hard time discerning larger themes or principles. This is a serious handicap for evangelicals in the public sphere. They're equipped to prooftext, but not well-equipped to formulate arguments basic on overarching principles, and almost wholly incapable of translating such arguments into secular language or of basing them on shared, nonsectarian principles.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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Sahid
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
 
   Posted 1/22/2008 7:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No one but an anarchist passes "Chernus' critical question," not even Chernus himself.

Chernus said...
But challenge and change is the essence of democracy. The only valid authority for political values is the truth discovered by human thought, which is always open to challenge and change. Democracy requires that all the people (either directly or through elected representatives) be thinking and debating about their laws and policies, constantly and endlessly. Every claim made in the political arena must be open to debate without limit.

And the debate must be open to everyone. No one’s ideas can be excluded. So everyone must have equal access to the terms of the discussion. No special terms, like the words and symbols of a particular religion, can be privileged, because that would exclude all the people who don’t find those words and symbols meaningful. The terms have to be secular.


Where did these ideas come from? Did democracy beget democracy? No. Those advocating democratic priniciples undemocratically imposed their beliefs.

And in this light Huckabee (and nearly every other American politician from right to left) DOES pass the test. Because, whatever grounds he bases his arguments in, he submits them to the will of the people.

So if the "critical question" is a matter of words, no one (but the anarchist) passes. And if its a matter of action, anyone who submits to the democratic process passes.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
 
   Posted 1/23/2008 7:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Good point. I find it interesting that he wants to say it is OK for MLK to advocate for his cause of civil rights based on “secular arguments in sectarian language” but it’s not OK for Huckabee to “impose” his religion on the rest of the nation because he is does not “translate that language into shared, nonsectarian principles.”

But isn’t this simply Fred’s way of saying, “I like what MLK had to say and think he was justified in promoting civil rights” while ignoring the religious grounding that THAT is based in while saying, “I don’t like what Huckabee is saying because it is religiously sectarian?” This seems to view religion as having no place within the public arena ESPECIALLY because one disagrees with the particular policy being advocated for.

Fred wants to say that if a politician is going to advocate for some policy that he/she should “present an argument that relies on something other than their personal conviction” (ironically, years ago, Chuck Colson advocated the same thing in Christianity Today Magazine) as given from the “voice of God” to impose “upon the rest of the world.”

While I agree that one should withhold from saying publicly their view is from God, are “non-sectarian principles” REALLY NON-SECTARIAN? Are they really not RELIGIOUS at their base? And are those not held with personal conviction? In other words, those “non-sectarian principles” could be along the lines of say sociological arguments i.e. gay-marriage is wrong because no marriage is an island as it touches the community for how we conduct ourselves sexually and domestically--but in my view those sociological arguments are the actually very religious (or function religiously or are religiously non-neutral), thus by slight of hand, Fred would ultimately advocate replacing one religious view with another.

Fred says, “His approach does not allow disagreement -- indeed, he says, to disagree with him is to disagree with God.”

While I would agree with Fred concerning the latter, is Fred not advocating via the former that Huckabee be wishy-washy on his stance concerning same-sex marriage? In other words, simply because Huckabee advocates a “sectarian view” must he “tone it down” to allow for people to disagree with him? Disagreement/tolerance doesn’t take place in the category of attempting to be neutral on the issue but in the human community and market place itself. And in the end, it seems to me that it is Fred who is rather intolerant, something he accuses Huckabee of being. I mean 30-40 years later when we are living (and basking) in the light of civil rights advances, it is so easy to take a privileged look at others and say, “You don’t have a right to say your piece.”

By the way, and as an aside, it should be remembered that civil rights protections are not sufficient to guarantee minorities an equitable share in all the social and economic benefits. It is one thing to gain constitutional recognition that black people should be free from slavery, have a right to a fair trial, free speech, free association and voting privileges. It is quite another to change majority will so that government will act to promote housing, employment and other social benefits. Civil rights alone are not sufficient to produce a majority policy consensus at the legislative level. And even legislative policy cannot deliver jobs, education, housing, etc, in a highly differentiated society. Schools and homes and neighbourhoods have to be organized in such a way as to make learning succeed. That is, for government to pass laws that advance the general welfare and promote economic fairness in society, it not only has to reach a majority consensus but must deal justly with non-governmental institutions and individuals that deserve protection from an intrusive and arbitrary government. The very nature of civil rights is that they define the due process of government and the limits of government with respect to individual freedoms and spheres of responsibility beyond the governmental realm.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.
To love without love is slavery--Mother Teresa

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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
 
   Posted 1/23/2008 12:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Huck is the man...whatever stirs things up...


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