Hi I'm new to the open view and I recently had someone ask me a question about Psalm 22.  I had mentioned that many of the prophecies that were fulfilled in the life of Jesus were not predictions but were more like illustrations.  He said that Pslam 22 is clearly about Christ (not David).  He asked, "Were David's hands and feet pierced?  Did they cast lots for his clothing, etc.?"

 

Can you give additional guidance on this particular prophecy?

 

Thank you in advance for any help!

Thanks for your help Tom and Starkman.

 

A lot of this will become a bit obvious, if you give it a chance and just use a bit of good ol' fashion common sense as you think these things through.

Christ "was slain before the foundation of the world," correct? I mean, He was already the answer to the Fall before man even fell. In other words, God had already devised the plan (Christ crucified) before He even made man!

Right, He pre-settled that Christ Jesus would have to die for mankind before the ages began.  Honestly though, I’m not so sure God pre-settled the manner by which Christ Jesus would die (i.e. murder by crucifixion) before the ages began.  Even though God knew that His creatures would need a Savior, could He really imagine that they would devise such an inhumane way to execute criminals?

 

Like the deal with the flood—even though He knew He was dealing with creatures who would sin, He was truly disappointed at the low they chose to sink to as if He could not have imagined this was the direction they would end up going.  And in Jeremiah when God expressed His utter disgust that His people would choose to sacrifice their sons and daughters like the pagans, He said the thought never even entered into His mind.

 

I’m just not sure If God could have foreknown that His Son would have to die in such a manner.  We seem pretty good at being able to take evil to the extreme and cause God great grief.

So for God to reveal something about the saving work of Christ by crucifixion to David (hands and feet being pierced) is not a problem, if that part of Psalm 22 is predictive. It is, after all, what God ordained would happen, and the working-out of the details during the life of Christ was no big problem for God, even the part about casting lots. Let's say the casting of lots was predictive. it was no problem for God to work this out at the time of Christ's crucifixion. I mean, obviously God wouldn't have been foolish enough to have given a direct future prediction (through David) about such if it weren't something God was able to perform.

So you’re saying that by the time David wrote Psalm 22, God already knew that crucifixion was the way Jesus was going to die?  I suppose that seems reasonable.

For instance, even if Psalm 22 was not the least bit predictive, not in the slightest, it STILL would not be impossible for God to have caused everything David said to happen both in and around the events of Christ's life, like the piercing of His hands and feet, and the casting lots for his clothing. That's how powerful God is. All God has to do is put a thought into someone's mind, cause a few things to happen over here, manipulate circumstances over there. It's endless to think just how powerful God is and what He can do. But this aspect about God is not appreciated to the extent it should be when we have blocked our ability to recognize such great power by demanding that God MUST already know everything (EVERYTHING) we will ever choose. (Again, this logic does NOT make the open view true—reality does that for us all by itself—but it should wake us up a bit as to how little we appreciate the power of God.)

 

Would you say that putting thoughts in someone’s mind is manipulating their free will?  Obviously, you’re not saying God put evil thoughts in the minds of people to orchestrate events at that time.  Even if He did put neutral thoughts (not evil & not good) or good thoughts into people’s minds at that time in order to ensure the events took place as planned, does that violate something in the open view?

Think about it. Do we really think it would have been too hard for God to have found people (namely, the religious leaders of Jesus' time) who would have wanted Jesus dead? Obviously not, for they were wanting to kill Jesus early on in His ministry, but it wasn't God's time. Do we think it was too hard for those religious leaders to be persuaded to use crucifixion as the method for Christ's death? Not at all. They were only quite willing. Do we think it was too hard for God to put the idea into a soldier's mind to cast lots for Christ's clothing (apparently, this was the normal practice anyway)? Not at all.

I wonder when the idea of crucifixion entered into the heart and mind of man.  Do you know when they first began using that method?

So nothing about Psalm 22 is evidence, nor should we try to make it be, that none of the future is open. Now, that God had already ordained that Christ would die was settled; that part of the future was no not open. Further, God had decided that Christ would die by crucifixion; that part of the future, as well, was not open. As I said above, when God determines such and such about the future, that part of the future is not open.

Why do we say that God ordained Christ to die by crucifixion?  Where is that found?

Common sense alone says that there's no way God can know every choice you will make. Common sense also says that God most certainly knows all of the "you might do this" and "you might not do this" choices. And finally, since God is omniscient, we can be assured that God knows all the possibilities that we will ever face in this life. He can never be caught off guard. But I repeat: common sense alone is against the idea that everything (EVERYTHING!) is already foreknown. That doesn't even make sense!

I’ve been having a discussion about predetermination with another brother in Christ (I guess he’d be considered Armenian in his view), and he keeps saying that even though the belief that God sees into the future contradicts our reality doesn’t mean that it contradicts God’s reality.  Since God’s realm is outside of ours, He can see the future but that doesn’t mean His foreknowledge makes us act a certain way.  Somehow, just because He sees what we will do doesn’t interfere with our freedom of choice.  Can you help me understand how this can be logical to him?

Now, at this point, I'm not bringing Scripture into my discussion with you, because at the moment Scripture isn't the issue. Reality and common sense are the issue. You've brought up a Scripture to examine in the light of your recent discovery of the open view, and that's what we are doing. We are thinking, asking questions and just using our day-to-day logic that all of us live and interact with. So don't expect a bunch of Scriptures to get thrown at you in defense of the open view. That's probably the worse way to approach this subject. What is vital is that you obtain a clear and solid understanding about what the open view is. After that, we can look more at Scripture and you will be able to intelligently work through the Word of God from an open view perspective. You may even disagree with the view when all is said and done, but at least you will understand it for what it is (and not for what it is not!).

Why do you say it’s the worst way to approach this subject?  Shouldn’t our theology emerge out of what Scripture teaches as well as out of what we experience?

Think about all this, and feel free to ask more questions.

Thanks,

Starkman

 

Thanks for the discussion!

 

Surrender

Hey Surrender,

First, let me clear up something real quick: I don't know that God determined in eternity past that Christ would die by crucifixion. I do believe, though, that at some time after Creation, it became clear that this was what was going to happen. This would make sense of, say, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and other passages that seem to intimate that it would be by some form of crucifixion by which Christ would die.

I may have been understood to have said that I believed Christ was pre-ordained in eternity past to die by crucifixion, but what I meant to convey was IF this were the case...(fill in the gap with what I said after such statements), not that it was the case. Hope that's more clear now.

Hi, Starkman!

 

Yes, it is clearer now.  Thank you!

Like Tom said, God could (did, and has) "imagined" this evil, for sure. Why? Because, as I noted in my posts above, God knows ALL the possibilities that can become realities in man's history. So God would have known all along that the idea of crucifixion was possible. We don't have to go any further than that, though. And the reality of all this is that it is painful to God to have to see those possibilities become realities, just as it is for a parent when they know all along that it's possible that one day their child may turn to drugs (hoping he/she won't), but are still saddened if the child does. God is the say way. This is part of that reality I was talking about; God walks right along with us, seeing where we will go, watching what decisions we will make as we make them. Yes, God has always known that it was possible we might do this, that and the other, but it is still joyous or saddening when we choose to do one or other. If, however, every choice we will ever choose has already been foreknown, what kind of relationship do you suppose God could really have with us? It sure wouldn't be anything like what we have right now with him!

I tried to make that point with another believer not too long ago, but they didn’t understand what I meant.

 

Thanks for the parent-child analogy—that makes sense.

To answer the first question, "Would you say that putting thoughts in someone’s mind is manipulating their free will?" no. Merely putting a thought into someone's mind—or for that matter simply manipulating circumstances to lead someone to an idea—isn't overriding that person's freewill; the person, in those instances, always has the choice to choose otherwise (though, as Tom pointed out, there are some open theists who believe that God can, and does occasionally override someone's freewill, and that is probably true). For instance, just because Jesus told Peter that Peter would deny Him three times does NOT mean that a) God knew from eternity past that on that day, hour and minute Peter would deny Jesus, or b) that Jesus was seeing into the future, as if seeing it all happen before His very eyes, like a movie taking place, and telling Peter what is destiny was. Rather, Jesus had looked into Peter's heart, knew that Peter loved Him but not like Peter himself thought He did; he would cave in were circumstances to push the issue of his real feelings.

In other words, Jesus knew about Peter's heart what Peter himself didn't even know; that Peter wasn't as true to Jesus as he thought he was. Oh, in due time, he would become a freight train for Jesus, but that time wasn't during Christ's life. Jesus pointed this out to Peter, but Peter challenged Jesus' inside knowledge..."Lord, I'll die for you!" Peter exclaimed. Well, that wasn't the truth, was it, and Jesus knew this all along (I mean, all Jesus had to do was look into Peter's heart. Very simple for God to do). So all God had to do was manipulate circumstances—put people in Peter's path to challenge Peter—and bingo, the truth became evident.

Would the manipulating of circumstances require that God reeeeeally move it upon someone to walk this way (so as to run into Peter) verses going about another path? Probably. But as I've said before on this board, and elsewhere, we simply aren't as free as we might think we are, or would like to be. In other words, if God does step into human history in order to move things along His way, and those movements may require that someone be diverted from walking down A street and be moved to walk down B street, well, that's life, and it's God's right to do this. God can move upon us to do this, that and the other, always leaving us a choice not to do so, but God's pretty aware of that, so He's not going to always just come right out and say, "Go confront Peter!" No, rather, God just "inspires" us to do such and such, and He has the right to do this.

This event with Peter came up in our conversation.  I didn’t find this particular situation with Peter all that difficult to explain.  We all know God knew the heart and thoughts of Peter intimately (as well as everyone else at that time).  For God to orchestrate the events a bit to make His point wouldn’t be too difficult for God to do.  Yet our brother with the Armenian view had a very hard time finding my explanation reasonable.

Yeah, let's talk about this, and let's just use a bit of common sense and thinking here to help us out.

First, what is "God's reality"? Whatever it is, it involves us the minute God created us. There's simply no way to get around this. In other words, when God is relating to us, He's doing so in our world and in the manners and ways in which He created our world to operate. Namely, God built freewill into man's makeup. And to have freewill means to be able to decide for or against something; to do or not to do something; to choose X, Y or Z, and (the most important thing I can say here about freewill) this MUST mean that man MUST have the ability to even choose against what God "supposedly" has known since eternity past, like whether I'll eat steak or fish tonight for dinner, or whether I'll even eat at all. Now, let's go over what this means…

(As a plug: I wrote a book about the open view that comes strictly from the perspective of reality, as God made it, showing clearly that some of the future must be open. I discuss many aspects of reality, just like we're dealing with here. The book is called, "Where the Future Meets Reality," and can be found at Amazon.com or Lulu.com)

Wow!  Very cool—I’ll have to look that up for sure.

 

Funny you should mention food to describe how this works.  I just replied to a post using food to describe this very thing.  The poster wrote that he believes that God is out there in His realm while we’re here in our realm.  Therefore, He can sit out there in His realm and see the future of our realm.  I wrote that if God sees and knows what the final future of this realm is, then there can be no other truth for our realm than what God sees and knows.  So, even if in my realm I haven’t chosen to eat eggs instead of pancakes for breakfast tomorrow, I will choose to eat eggs if that’s what God has already seen while sitting “out there” in His realm.  It hasn’t happened for me yet, but it has happened as far as God is concerned.  The truth remains; I have no other option but to eat eggs tomorrow for breakfast.  This is the first (& only) time I’m playing out the events in MY realm and it certainly appears that I have options.  But if in God’s realm He’s already seen what I will do in my realm, then I have no choice in my realm but to do what God saw me do in His realm.  His truth in His realm WILL most certainly and definitely become my truth in my realm.  Anyway, that’s what I posted, and I’ll have to wait and see if it made sense to him or not.  It doesn’t seem like it should be this difficult to show the glaring contradiction.

 

Finally, it's really pretty ludicrous of us to say things like, "Oh, God's not in our time," or "God's in His own time," and other similar statements. Have you, yourself, talked with God and had Him give you a blow-by-blowy explanation of just how it is that He is not "in our time"? I know I haven't. I'll go so far as to say no one has gotten this kind of information. Why? Because it simply isn't reality! It's a man-made, made-up attempt to help people keep the belief that God is able to know absolutely everything everyone will ever think, say and do, but it just doesn't work: it's not even remotely possible to prove these kinds of theses, and it doesn't jibe with reality as we deal with it, and as God deals with us, every day. Everyone's got their ideas about how God exists, but we seldom have any evidence, much less proof for these kinds of ideas about His existence (as it relates to time).

Let's just stick with the way things are, the way God made them for us to observe, and we'll be okay. First, freewill means what it means. Second, there's no evidence, whatsoever, that God is somehow "outside" of time (that doesn't even make sense, much less be a possibility). And third, all the evidence in the universe speaks to us about real, live, relationship with God, and not some sort of "He knows everything I'll ever think, say and do, but boy, we sure have a real and honest relationship." That's silly! Because it's not reality.

Again, that’s what really made me consider all this more seriously.  How could God have a genuine relationship with me if He already knows everything I’ll ever say and do?  It just didn’t resonate with me at all.

To close, I don't think it's wise to start the subject of the open view with bombardment of Scripture, as you might see by now why. First and foremost for people in your position, Surrender, is important to understand first the view as clearly as possible and to have misunderstandings misconceptions about it cleared. Then we can talk more about the subject from Scripture. But if we try first to start with Scripture, we will get nowhere. I hope that's a bit more evident now.

Actually, I didn’t grow at all in understanding this view until I came across Greg Boyd’s site and looked at all the passages that support the OV.  I already knew in my heart that predetermination and exhaustive foreknowledge did not resonate with me (probably because common sense told me something different), but until I saw “proof” in Scripture how the nature of the future is partly open, I didn’t quite get it.  Everything is beginning to open up to me now and I’m feeling a strange sense of…freedom. ;-)

Thanks much,

Starkman

 

Oh no, Starkman, thank YOU.

 

Jeff: I think it's much easier to understand this stuff when we realize that most of us, most of the time, are functioning in terms of habit, not free-will. Indeed, self-control is a fruit of the Spirit. Most people tend NOT to use self-control. Thus, all God has to do is to manipulate, via external conditions or directly within one's own brain (as in the Matrix) what kinds of associations are triggered in solidified humans, and they become as easily manipulated for God as a dog is for humans with a doggie treat. It's not near as hard as it seems once we understand psychology and the fact that God DOES intervene. He doesn't MERELY predict.

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