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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/6/2004 3:31 PM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
In describing the Open View, those who hold this view use the analogy of a master chess player, who can think ahead so well that he can beat any opponent.
But when the Open View explains passages such as Jonah's prophecy to the Ninevites, the thought is that God must sometimes change his mind, and even change his plan.
The explanation that God changed his response to the Ninevites, but not his plan, is objectionable to the Open View, it seems.
But then God must not have included the possibility that the Ninevites would repent in his plan. But the chess master analogy says he does do this.
So there seems to be an inconsistency here...
Where's the inconsistency?
Nineveh was wicked and deserving of God's punishment. God sends Jonah to proclaim their doom, they respond differently then expected, God changes His plan to destroy them. He's a dynamic God who can react to different situations. Where's the inconsistency?
The real inconsistency is in believing that a God who cannot lie would tell Jonah a lie and for him to go lie to Nineveh, telling them one thing while all along knowing the set plan was the exact opposite.
OV says, God was going to destroy Nineveh, He wasn't lying. He changed His mind based upon their response.
Pre-determinism says God lies. <---- THAT is the inconsistency
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/6/2004 5:05 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Pre-determinism says God lies. <---- THAT is the inconsistency
I agree! I believe Satan has those who believe in predestination in bondage. The inconsistency is that these people say with words that God is love yet reach out to those in turmoil with the response of "God willed this for your good" as though the God of love wills people to suffer thereby making God not that much different from Satan in regard to evil and suffering.
I am really starting to have a heart for people stuck in the lie of predestination. The truth is that God is involved with us and our choices. God created us with freewill to have the freedom to choose to love him or not. God is fighting on our behalf against the powers of darkness. God wants us to have life and have it abundantly. The truth is having this life is within our power of choice. If we choose to follow Christ we will never fight the battle alone. In the darkest hours we will not be forsaken. God wants EVERYONE to come to him and receive life. God wills that NO PERSON should perish. God did not create some knowing all along that they would end up in hell. To me this is inconsistency. This is where predestination is deceiving people.
I am sorry if I am offending anyone but I truly do have a heart for those who are being blinded by this lie. | | Back to Top | | |
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 4/6/2004 9:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee: In describing the Open View, those who hold this view use the analogy of a master chess player, who can think ahead so well that he can beat any opponent. But when the Open View explains passages such as Jonah's prophecy to the Ninevites, the thought is that God must sometimes change his mind, and even change his plan.
Alan: It is not accurate to say that on the open view God "changes his plan" or even that God "changes his mind". What changes, rather, is the manner of God's response. In other words, God responds differently than he would have had circumstances turned out differently.
The point of the chessmaster analogy, as Doc has emphasized, is to explain the infinite intelligence of God--namely, that God can completely anticipate ALL possibilities and form conditional resolutions to respond appropriately to whatever possibility obtains. Thus, God knows, let us suppose, that the Ninevites might repent, and he knows that they might not. Based on this knowledge God resolves to act as follows: IF they do not repent, then I will destroy Nineveh; and IF they do not repent, they I will not destroy Nineveh. These conditional resolutions constitute God's plan. Irrespective of what the Ninevites do, the plan itself doesn't change. Rather, what changes is which conditional resolution God puts into effect depending on which conditions are fulfilled.
Lee: The explanation that God changed his response to the Ninevites, but not his plan, is objectionable to the Open View, it seems.
Alan: How so? As I explained above, the open view is not committed to the idea that God literally changes his plans. If open theists take the infinite intelligence of God seriously, I would argue, then they should NOT say that God literally changes his mind or his plans. The change is only in which conditional resolution of God's is "in effect".
Open theists, unfortunately, have quite often not been very careful how they articulate their position. The problem is that a God who literally "changes his mind" seems to LACK infinite intelligence. Why, after all, does anyone change their mind? It's ultimately because they acquire new information that leads them to reassess matters. But if God is infinitely intelligent then there is NO new information that he hasn't already anticipated and incorporated into his conditional resolutions. When open theists describe a God who literally "changes his mind" they are, therefore, implicitly describing a God who is NOT infinitely intelligent and who thus occasionally gets literally "surprised" by turns of events. This explains in part why many find the God of open theism to be "weak" and unable to maintain control over his creation. The problem is that open theists have too often uncritically seized upon Biblical phrasing that depicts God as "changing his mind", "repenting", etc. as giving us a literal description of God. It is not. It is figurative. There is, however, a literal point behind such figures of speech, which is that God is flexible and responsive in his dealings with creation, applying whichever conditional resolution is appropriate as circumstances warrant.
God bless,
Alan | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/7/2004 6:05 AM (GMT -6) | | The chess analogy actually works to prove the Open View as Alan has correctly stated it. If God knows every move His opponent can make, then it will never be that when the opponent moves that God will say, "Oh, my, I didn't see that move. Great. What do I do now?"
Since God knows every possible move His opponent can make in the game, what God really says, then (so to speak) is, "If my opponent moves this piece, I'll counter with move A. If that piece, I'll counter with move B. There is no move my opponent can make that I do not already know all of the possibilities his move can have in the game." In other word, no matter what piece the opponent moves, it is already a foregone conclusion that God, knowing every possible combination, will win. He's already knows every possibility and outcome that can can be effected.
In view of this, what the Open View claims, then, is that in every circumstance of life (far more complicated than a chess game), God does not always know what move His opponent will make (much different than saying God doesn't know all the possibilities and effects). He doesn't have to know this; He already knows all the possibilities His creation has. There are no disadvantages for God. I mean, as if God's really going to be caught off guard and say, "Oh, cripe, now what?" Note, though, that those would be His words IF the Open View claimed, as is quite often misunderstood to be, that God doesn't know all possibilities. This view, were it the Open View, would justify Lee's contention that the chess game is a contradiction. But since that view is not correct, we do not have to worry for one minute that God's created order can actually outwit Him!
The Open View is really very simple: There isn't anything that could happen in all existence that God is not already aware that could happen and and that He doesn't already know all of the ramifications of anything that happens; He is all-knowing. And He has complete and full power to do as He pleases; He is all-powerful. In view of this, God works accordingly: determining some things, not determining other things and thus responds as He has deemed to do so as we act in the limited free capacity He has given us.
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/7/2004 7:02 AM (GMT -6) | | I adopted the OV when my old ways of thinking, i.e. the teeter-totter between Armenianism and Calvinism could not make sense to me. The OV is easy to understand(with my human mind) and it makes sense. And since I know my Father is kind and revealing I believe that regular everyday people should be able to understand His revelation. Not only philosophy majors.
I believ the OV takes the early eastern worldview and brings into this context. Bravo to those who defended OV on this thread. I'm ready to read more.
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 4/7/2004 1:34 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Lee: But then God must not have included the possibility that the Ninevites would repent in his plan. But the chess master analogy says he does do this.
Laika: Nineveh was wicked and deserving of God's punishment. God sends Jonah to proclaim their doom, they respond differently then expected, God changes His plan to destroy them. He's a dynamic God who can react to different situations. Where's the inconsistency?
Here is why I am wondering about this:
quote:
Alan: It is not accurate to say that on the open view God "changes his plan".
On one hand, it is said that "God changes his plan." But also that he doesn't...
I think the "master chess player" analogy says that God takes all relevant possibilities into account, so he always wins. But then, it seems, you must not insist that God changed his plan for the Ninevites, when they repented, instead we must say that God foresaw that possibility, and included it in his plan.
quote:
How many here would choose SOME of their OWN children for damnation and choose SOME for eternal life?
Well, I happen to believe that we are allowed to hope that God will indeed save everyone:
1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I hope that people even in hell can repent, after judgement:
RO 11:10-11 "May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
But I think we aren't supposed to come down completely on one side or the other, I think the warnings are real, and the hope is real, too, and I believe that God may have some way of resolving this that he can't tell us about, yet:
2CO 12:4 He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
I do believe that we will be completely satisfied with God's justice, and with his mercy, too...
quote:
The real inconsistency is in believing that a God who cannot lie would tell Jonah a lie and for him to go lie to Nineveh, telling them one thing while all along knowing the set plan was the exact opposite.
God cannot lie, that is true! So there must have been an implied condition to the Ninevites. Jonah thought there was, or he wouldn't have run. But let's stick to the question, please 
quote:
Since God knows every possible move His opponent can make in the game, what God really says, then (so to speak) is, "If my opponent moves this piece, I'll counter with move A. If that piece, I'll counter with move B. There is no move my opponent can make that I do not already know all of the possibilities his move can have in the game."
So then why do we not conclude that God changed only his response to the Ninevites, and not his plan?
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/7/2004 2:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
In describing the Open View, those who hold this view use the analogy of a master chess player, who can think ahead so well that he can beat any opponent.
But when the Open View explains passages such as Jonah's prophecy to the Ninevites, the thought is that God must sometimes change his mind, and even change his plan.
The explanation that God changed his response to the Ninevites, but not his plan, is objectionable to the Open View, it seems.
But then God must not have included the possibility that the Ninevites would repent in his plan. But the chess master analogy says he does do this.
So there seems to be an inconsistency here...
Blessings,
Lee
Lee,
The questions you ask are questions that I asked a couple of years ago. They are valid questions coming from any other view and I think (I know) that misunderstanding abounds as far as the O.V. is concerned. It is incomprehensible to our finite minds that God the Father can "know each and every possibility as if it were the only possibility and respond accordingly." But I believe He can and does and that makes Him more infinitely sovereign and faithful then I had previously thought (in my pre-O.V. days).
God is always changing His response according to our response. How could it be otherwise if the wages of sin is death and He is always seeking to redeem, to restore. He has to be able to change according to our response for that to be so don't you think?
God told Jonah He would destroy the Ninevites. I have no doubt that in telling Jonah He would do that, that He hoped they would respond and did they ever! What kind of Father would wipe them out when they were repenting? The Father's love and wisdom is beyond our comprehension.
I had not heard the chess analogy before (I don't know how I missed that) but I think it's a good one. The Father knows what the "object of the game" is and has a strategy. Each piece has a part and He responds to every move that we make. I guess any analogy breaks down somewhere. But I do not doubt that God was allowing for the possibility that the Ninevites might respond. Countless times throughout scripture God has changed what He was going to do because of our response. Isn't that how an earthly Father would wisely and lovingly guide his children (except of course for times when changing when bring more harm)?
Lee, have you read "God of The Possible?"
God Bless,
Jo-Anne  (It's a gorgeous, sunny day here!)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Alan Rhoda
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 680
| Posted 4/7/2004 2:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
Since God knows every possible move His opponent can make in the game, what God really says, then (so to speak) is, "If my opponent moves this piece, I'll counter with move A. If that piece, I'll counter with move B. There is no move my opponent can make that I do not already know all of the possibilities his move can have in the game."
So then why do we not conclude that God changed only his response to the Ninevites, and not his plan?
The answer to this question has already been given. If God is infinitely intelligent then his initial plan already includes all contingencies, so there is no conceivable reason why God would ever have to, literally, change his plan. Why not conclude that God changed his plan with the Ninevites? Because it implies that God is not infinitely intelligent, which seriously diminishes God.
Regards,
Alan
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/8/2004 3:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi all-
Well, I might as well be the one to stick my neck out here. I’d like to suggest that God really can change his mind and plans (in the sense Alan wants to deny) and that this doesn’t imply a weakness or lack of knowledge on God’s part. God can fully intend to do something (by that I mean invest his will and intention into doing something) and later literally change his mind or intention.
I agree with Alan that a lack of knowledge on our part is often the only reason we end up changing our minds. I’m less convinced that such a lack of knowledge is by definition required by any genuine change of mind or intention. I can conceive of situations in which a complete knowledge of possible events would not prevent me from genuinely intending to do something and yet later changing my mind when what I knew was highly improbable occurs. Its high improbability freed me, so to speak, to let go and genuinely intend plan A and pursue it.
Remember too that some possible events can be responded to in several equally good ways and there’s no reason to believe God couldn’t intend one of these and then freely change his mind about it in spite of knowing the possibilities beforehand. I get the feeling that the infinite intelligence argument encourages some to believe that if we actually knew what God knew about some future slice of reality, we’d be able to predict what God would do, and that God somehow really does have his mind eternally made up about all the possible ways he can act and respond. That might be true where the possibilities of a particular slice of the future include a number of truly evil options and only one good and loving response. I don’t doubt that God, knowing these possibilities, would be eternally committed to doing what’s good and loving in the event that particular slice of reality becomes a reality. But I’m inclining these days to the belief that possibilities aren’t so tidy, and that God’s intending and willing, being free, are not as determined by even the possibilities as some might think the infinite intelligence argument suggests, at least in situations that hold out several equally good and workable options for God. There’s no reason to think he can’t intend one and freely change if he wants to. This need not imply indecisiveness of mind on God's part.
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/8/2004 4:12 AM (GMT -6) | | If God can't change his mind, then how do you explain this one?
Gen. 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Now before this it says:
6:5 And God SAW that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and the every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
It seems that God "looks", God "sees" and God makes a decision based on the current circumstances. I mean 6 chapters earlier you have God looking on everything and seeing that it is "good". But now here you have God looking and seeing and it's very bad. In one case what God sees gives him pleasure, in the other it grieves him.
It also seems that God can have a form of "regret", just like we can. It seems like a lot of what God dose is based on what humans do. Now also since he made humans, he's got to know them by now pretty well. In knowing his creature, he understands and can pretty much guess their response from what he knows about each one individually.
I'm thinking of Judas. I mean WHY did Jesus Christ even pick Judas? I believe that he picked him, purposely knowing that he was the betrayer type. Heck, even I could pick out someone like that, just from what I know. I've lived 48 years, and believe me I know the personality type to pick out, on who would betray me, just because they don't like what I believe. If you've dealt with people much, and been around some you can pretty much read them in a lot of areas.
For instance at work, a coworker and I have almost everything in common...except....he is a liberal democrat, NRA member, ex Methodist, converted to ROC, but doesn’t believe in heaven or hell, and believes in reincarnation, because his mother felt she’d been at the Cowboy Bar in Jackson Hole Wyoming in a past life. What you might call a "walking contradiction" of eclectic beliefs. Now we got along just fine, until I questioned some of these views and disagreed with them, and I might add in a VERY tactful and kind manner. But now since he knows I don't agree with what he thinks, he hates my guts. Oh he only shows it in these "looks" that cross his face and a word here and there. But I know he hates my guts. And I know that I better watch anything I say around him, because he'd be running up to the boss, if he could get anything on me.
Now I know this person will in fact betray me if he can. But here's the deal, this is a person I REALLY liked at first, simply because in everything else in life we have so much in common. That should have warned me off right there, because I can't tell you how many times, I have met some one who I thought was just a great person, who wound up NOT being so. And I guess because of this experience, I recognize the signs earlier, before I get totally messed over by them.
So if stupid me can see these things in people, and "change my mind" as to how I should deal with them, then WHY CAN'T GOD? And here's the deal too. I have long believed that everywhere I went, God used me to judge people. NO I DON'T MEAN THAT I JUDGE THEM! I mean that God brought me into contact with certain individuals to manifest their true hearts. And this he dose by their reaction towards me as he sits back and watches what they do, say and think. However he is not only judging them, I mean seeing what kind of person they really are, but judging me also, to see if I will do as he commands and "love my enemies."
And when I do as he commands, I get the most amazing results. And when I fail to do as he commands I suffer the consequences. This has happened so many times I can’t count it. And it's what also leads me to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that his Word is true and works with precision.
As an example, the last person who filled the position of the person of whom I spoke above. We worked together for a year and a half. This person wound up being extremely verbally abusive and manipulative. And was doing the double back stab. That is playing friend to everyone and betraying everyone to everyone else. He would purposely lure others into situations and then pit everyone against everyone. However I wound up finding out all he was doing, and I purposely decided to love this guy anyway. I tell you the natural inclination was to hate the guy, and believe me I had some of those feelings.
God allowed me to confront him, in the love of God about everything he was doing, and he even admitted it and apologized. But I overcame my feelings of betrayal and the temptation to hate him even before this. But then after I overcame and loved my enemy, guess what? He got fired, and I wasn't even glad about it.
Now I believe that my decisions directly effected this man. Though he may have gotten fired later, I believe that I prevented some eternal fire on both our parts by my response to God's word. Though he was a complete jerk, through the love and forgiveness and honesty I showed him, he actually apologized for his back stabbing evil ways. Not many men would do that, so I have to respect that about him. And I believe that God saw his heart through all of this, as well as mine.
There are those who NEVER soften or see their evil ways. I know some pretty HARD Christians out there, who get offended over nothing and hate your guts, the rest of their lives. People hate you simply because you believe something different than they do, and it offends them.
If they FBI can do a "personality profile" on someone, if lawyers can do personality profiles on jurors and use it to determine how that person will vote, then why can't God look at people and use similar tactics?
God knew those people in Nineveh, he knew because he'd been watching them for a long time, and he knew because of what he saw that they would repent. I believe it was the same with Pharaoh in Egypt. God had been watching that kid for a long time, and knew that he was the one, he could use to show forth his power to Israel on.
If God can look down on men, and see that the imaginations of their heart are only evil continually, then he can also see if there are some good things in there to work with also. God isn't just dealing with himself; he's dealing with lots of people in whom there are many variables to consider. The only thing is he's smart enough to consider all the variables, add them up and then make a pretty precise decision on how the creature will react.
What dose it say in Psalms or Proverbs about reproof, "Reprove a wise man and he will love you, reprove a fool and he will hate you." Then we could make a list of at least 10 characteristics that compose a wise man and a fool, determine each mans character in light of that list and then make the decision as to the person's response at being reproved. That's fairly simple.
And I tell you, if everything was already just pre-determined, I myself would have given up long ago. It seems like God is doing his best for me, to show me that things in my life are not already determined, and that I can do a lot more than I ever thought I could do. Predestination is more like the pagan belief of FATE, cased in Biblical terminology, and to me is therefore a form of idolatry, and the worshipping of false gods.
Look here what it says about The Fates.
The Fates, were the three sisters that controlled the destinies of all mortal mankind from birth to death. Their father was the dark element of Tartarus, named Erebus; their mother was Night. Each of the three sisters was given a task that represented the lives of men and women, spinning a thread of gold, silver, or wool; now tightening, now slacking and at last cutting it off. One sister, named Clotho, the youngest, put the wool around the spindleand spun the thread of life. This determined a person's life. The second sister, named Lachesis, measured the thread once it was spun. She determined how long a person should live. The third sister, Atropos, cut the thread. Once she cut the thread, the person was dead. As Zeus became a stronger god, both in mythology and in the everyday lives of people, it was determined that he alone decided how long a person should live, making the Fates more minor in importance. In other accounts, it is said that even Zeus could not interfere with the decisions of the Fates.
The Fates were assisted by the god Hermes in the creation of the Pelasgian alphabet. They also helped the Olympian Gods on more than one occasion. They supported Zeus in his battle against Typhon by giving the monster poisoned fruits to eat. However, they were willing to help Hades when he protested to Zeus that Asclepius had revived a dead Hippolytus, hence negating the powers of both the Underworld and the Fates.http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/mythology/1deities/gods/lesser/group/fates.htm
I don't know about you, but I can easily see, how all the so called early church fathers, who were just converted from these beliefs, then turned around and intertwined them with what the scriptures said. And I have long held suspect what we Christians call our forms of "interpetation", under that name of a Greek god, which Paul called a "devil", namely "Hermeneutics", named after the god Hermes. Who as you see above was in league with the Fates.
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/8/2004 4:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
If God can't change his mind, then how do you explain this one?
Gen. 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Now before this it says:
6:5 And God SAW that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and the every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
It seems that God "looks", God "sees" and God makes a decision based on the current circumstances. I mean 6 chapters earlier you have God looking on everything and seeing that it is "good". But now here you have God looking and seeing and it's very bad. In one case what God sees gives him pleasure, in the other it grieves him.
It also seems that God can have a form of "regret", just like we can. It seems like a lot of what God dose is based on what humans do. Now also since he made humans, he's got to know them by now pretty well. In knowing his creature, he understands and can pretty much guess their response from what he knows about each one individually.
I'm thinking of Judas. I mean WHY did Jesus Christ even pick Judas? I believe that he picked him, purposely knowing that he was the betrayer type. Heck, even I could pick out someone like that, just from what I know. I've lived 48 years, and believe me I know the personality type to pick out, on who would betray me, just because they don't like what I believe. If you've dealt with people much, and been around some you can pretty much read them in a lot of areas.
For instance at work, a coworker and I have almost everything in common...except....he is a liberal democrat, NRA member, ex Methodist, converted to ROC, but doesn’t believe in heaven or hell, and believes in reincarnation, because his mother felt she’d been at the Cowboy Bar in Jackson Hole Wyoming in a past life. What you might call a "walking contradiction" of eclectic beliefs. Now we got along just fine, until I questioned some of these views and disagreed with them, and I might add in a VERY tactful and kind manner. But now since he knows I don't agree with what he thinks, he hates my guts. Oh he only shows it in these "looks" that cross his face and a word here and there. But I know he hates my guts.
Now I know this person will in fact betray me if he can. But here's the deal, this is a person I REALLY liked at first, simply because in everything else in life we have so much in common. That should have warned me off right there, because I can't tell you how many times, I have met some one who I thought was just a great person, who wound up NOT being so. And I guess because of this experience, I recognize the signs earlier, before I get totally messed over by them.
So if stupid me can see these things in people, and "change my mind" as to how I should deal with them, then WHY CAN'T GOD? And here's the deal too. I have long believed that everywhere I went, God used me to judge people. NO I DON'T MEAN THAT I JUDGE THEM! I mean that God brought me into contact with certain individuals to manifest their true hearts, and to PROVE MINE. And this he dose by their reaction towards me as he sits back and watches what they do, say and think. However he is not only judging them, I mean seeing what kind of person they really are, but judging me also, to see if I will do as he commands and "love my enemies."
When I do as he commands, I get the most amazing results. And when I fail to do as he commands I suffer the consequences. This has happened so many times I can’t count it. And it's what also leads me to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that his Word is true and works with precision.
As an example, the last person who filled the position of the person of whom I spoke above. We worked together for a year and a half. This person wound up being extremely verbally abusive and manipulative. And was doing the double back stab. That is playing friend to everyone and betraying everyone to everyone else. He would purposely lure others into situations and then pit everyone against everyone. However I wound up finding out all he was doing, and I purposely decided to love this guy anyway. I tell you the natural inclination was to hate the guy, and believe me I had some of those feelings.
God allowed me to confront him, in the love of God about everything he was doing, and he even admitted it and apologized. But I overcame my feelings of betrayal and the temptation to hate him even before this. But then after I overcame and loved my enemy, guess what? He got fired, and I wasn't even glad about it.
Now I believe that my decisions directly effected this man. Though he may have gotten fired later, I believe that I prevented some eternal fire on both our parts by my response to God's word. Though he was a complete jerk, through the love and forgiveness and honesty I showed him, he actually apologized for his back stabbing evil ways. Not many men would do that, so I have to respect that about him. And I believe that God saw his heart through all of this, as well as mine.
There are those who NEVER soften or see their evil ways. I know some pretty HARD Christians out there, who get offended over nothing and hate your guts, the rest of their lives. People hate you simply because you believe something different than they do, and it offends them.
If they FBI can do a "personality profile" on someone, if lawyers can do personality profiles on jurors and use it to determine how that person will vote, then why can't God look at people and use similar tactics?
God knew those people in Nineveh, he knew because he'd been watching them for a long time, and he knew because of what he saw that they would repent. I believe it was the same with Pharaoh in Egypt. God had been watching that kid for a long time, and knew that he was the one, he could use to show forth his power to Israel on.
If God can look down on men, and see that the imaginations of their heart are only evil continually, then he can also see if there are some good things in there to work with also. God isn't just dealing with himself; he's dealing with lots of people in whom there are many variables to consider. The only thing is he's smart enough to consider all the variables, add them up and then make a pretty precise decision on how the creature will react.
What dose it say in Psalms or Proverbs about reproof, "Reprove a wise man and he will love you, reprove a fool and he will hate you." Then we could make a list of at least 10 characteristics that compose a wise man and a fool, determine each mans character in light of that list and then make the decision as to the person's response at being reproved. That's fairly simple.
And I tell you, if everything was already just pre-determined, I myself would have given up long ago. It seems like God is doing his best for me, to show me that things in my life are not already determined, and that I can do a lot more than I ever thought I could do. Predestination is more like the pagan belief of FATE, cased in Biblical terminology, and to me is therefore a form of idolatry, and the worshipping of false gods.
Look here what it says about The Fates.
The Fates, were the three sisters that controlled the destinies of all mortal mankind from birth to death. Their father was the dark element of Tartarus, named Erebus; their mother was Night. Each of the three sisters was given a task that represented the lives of men and women, spinning a thread of gold, silver, or wool; now tightening, now slacking and at last cutting it off. One sister, named Clotho, the youngest, put the wool around the spindleand spun the thread of life. This determined a person's life. The second sister, named Lachesis, measured the thread once it was spun. She determined how long a person should live. The third sister, Atropos, cut the thread. Once she cut the thread, the person was dead. As Zeus became a stronger god, both in mythology and in the everyday lives of people, it was determined that he alone decided how long a person should live, making the Fates more minor in importance. In other accounts, it is said that even Zeus could not interfere with the decisions of the Fates.
The Fates were assisted by the god Hermes in the creation of the Pelasgian alphabet. They also helped the Olympian Gods on more than one occasion. They supported Zeus in his battle against Typhon by giving the monster poisoned fruits to eat. However, they were willing to help Hades when he protested to Zeus that Asclepius had revived a dead Hippolytus, hence negating the powers of both the Underworld and the Fates.http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/mythology/1deities/gods/lesser/group/fates.htm
I don't know about you, but I can easily see, how all the so called early church fathers, who were just converted from these beliefs, then turned around and intertwined them with what the scriptures said. And I have long held suspect what we Christians call our forms of "interpetation", under that name of a Greek god, which Paul called a "devil", namely "Hermeneutics", named after the god Hermes. Who as you see above was in league with the Fates.
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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larris
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/8/2004 4:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by larris
If God can't change his mind, then how do you explain this one?
Gen. 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Now before this it says:
6:5 And God SAW that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and the every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
It seems that God "looks", God "sees" and God makes a decision based on the current circumstances. I mean 6 chapters earlier you have God looking on everything and seeing that it is "good". But now here you have God looking and seeing and it's very bad. In one case what God sees gives him pleasure, in the other it grieves him.
It also seems that God can have a form of "regret", just like we can. It seems like a lot of what God dose is based on what humans do. Now also since he made humans, he's got to know them by now pretty well. In knowing his creature, he understands and can pretty much guess their response from what he knows about each one individually.
I'm thinking of Judas. I mean WHY did Jesus Christ even pick Judas? I believe that he picked him, purposely knowing that he was the betrayer type. Heck, even I could pick out someone like that, just from what I know. I've lived 48 years, and believe me I know the personality type to pick out, on who would betray me, just because they don't like what I believe. If you've dealt with people much, and been around some you can pretty much read them in a lot of areas.
For instance at work, a coworker and I have almost everything in common...except....he is a liberal democrat, NRA member, ex Methodist, converted to ROC, but doesn’t believe in heaven or hell, and believes in reincarnation, because his mother felt she’d been at the Cowboy Bar in Jackson Hole Wyoming in a past life. What you might call a "walking contradiction" of eclectic beliefs. Now we got along just fine, until I questioned some of these views and disagreed with them, and I might add in a VERY tactful and kind manner. But now since he knows I don't agree with what he thinks, he hates my guts. Oh he only shows it in these "looks" that cross his face and a word here and there. But I know he hates my guts. And I know that I better watch anything I say around him, because he'd be running up to the boss, if he could get anything on me.
Now I know this person will in fact betray me if he can. But here's the deal, this is a person I REALLY liked at first, simply because in everything else in life we have so much in common. That should have warned me off right there, because I can't tell you how many times, I have met some one who I thought was just a great person, who wound up NOT being so. And I guess because of this experience, I recognize the signs earlier, before I get totally messed over by them.
So if stupid me can see these things in people, and "change my mind" as to how I should deal with them, then WHY CAN'T GOD? And here's the deal too. I have long believed that everywhere I went, God used me to judge people. NO I DON'T MEAN THAT I JUDGE THEM! I mean that God brought me into contact with certain individuals to manifest their true hearts. And this he dose by their reaction towards me as he sits back and watches what they do, say and think. However he is not only judging them, I mean seeing what kind of person they really are, but judging me also, to see if I will do as he commands and "love my enemies."
And when I do as he commands, I get the most amazing results. And when I fail to do as he commands I suffer the consequences. This has happened so many times I can’t count it. And it's what also leads me to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that his Word is true and works with precision.
As an example, the last person who filled the position of the person of whom I spoke above. We worked together for a year and a half. This person wound up being extremely verbally abusive and manipulative. And was doing the double back stab. That is playing friend to everyone and betraying everyone to everyone else. He would purposely lure others into situations and then pit everyone against everyone. However I wound up finding out all he was doing, and I purposely decided to love this guy anyway. I tell you the natural inclination was to hate the guy, and believe me I had some of those feelings.
God allowed me to confront him, in the love of God about everything he was doing, and he even admitted it and apologized. But I overcame my feelings of betrayal and the temptation to hate him even before this. But then after I overcame and loved my enemy, guess what? He got fired, and I wasn't even glad about it.
Now I believe that my decisions directly effected this man. Though he may have gotten fired later, I believe that I prevented some eternal fire on both our parts by my response to God's word. Though he was a complete jerk, through the love and forgiveness and honesty I showed him, he actually apologized for his back stabbing evil ways. Not many men would do that, so I have to respect that about him. And I believe that God saw his heart through all of this, as well as mine.
There are those who NEVER soften or see their evil ways. I know some pretty HARD Christians out there, who get offended over nothing and hate your guts, the rest of their lives. People hate you simply because you believe something different than they do, and it offends them.
If they FBI can do a "personality profile" on someone, if lawyers can do personality profiles on jurors and use it to determine how that person will vote, then why can't God look at people and use similar tactics?
God knew those people in Nineveh, he knew because he'd been watching them for a long time, and he knew because of what he saw that they would repent. I believe it was the same with Pharaoh in Egypt. God had been watching that kid for a long time, and knew that he was the one, he could use to show forth his power to Israel on.
If God can look down on men, and see that the imaginations of their heart are only evil continually, then he can also see if there are some good things in there to work with also. God isn't just dealing with himself; he's dealing with lots of people in whom there are many variables to consider. The only thing is he's smart enough to consider all the variables, add them up and then make a pretty precise decision on how the creature will react.
What dose it say in Psalms or Proverbs about reproof, "Reprove a wise man and he will love you, reprove a fool and he will hate you." Then we could make a list of at least 10 characteristics that compose a wise man and a fool, determine each mans character in light of that list and then make the decision as to the person's response at being reproved. That's fairly simple.
And I tell you, if everything was already just pre-determined, I myself would have given up long ago. It seems like God is doing his best for me, to show me that things in my life are not already determined, and that I can do a lot more than I ever thought I could do. Predestination is more like the pagan belief of FATE, cased in Biblical terminology, and to me is therefore a form of idolatry, and the worshipping of false gods.
Look here what it says about The Fates.
The Fates, were the three sisters that controlled the destinies of all mortal mankind from birth to death. Their father was the dark element of Tartarus, named Erebus; their mother was Night. Each of the three sisters was given a task that represented the lives of men and women, spinning a thread of gold, silver, or wool; now tightening, now slacking and at last cutting it off. One sister, named Clotho, the youngest, put the wool around the spindleand spun the thread of life. This determined a person's life. The second sister, named Lachesis, measured the thread once it was spun. She determined how long a person should live. The third sister, Atropos, cut the thread. Once she cut the thread, the person was dead. As Zeus became a stronger god, both in mythology and in the everyday lives of people, it was determined that he alone decided how long a person should live, making the Fates more minor in importance. In other accounts, it is said that even Zeus could not interfere with the decisions of the Fates.
The Fates were assisted by the god Hermes in the creation of the Pelasgian alphabet. They also helped the Olympian Gods on more than one occasion. They supported Zeus in his battle against Typhon by giving the monster poisoned fruits to eat. However, they were willing to help Hades when he protested to Zeus that Asclepius had revived a dead Hippolytus, hence negating the powers of both the Underworld and the Fates.http://www.dl.ket.org/latin1/mythology/1deities/gods/lesser/group/fates.htm
I don't know about you, but I can easily see, how all the so called early church fathers, who were just converted from these beliefs, then turned around and intertwined them with what the scriptures said. And I have long held suspect what we Christians call our forms of "interpetation", under that name of a Greek god, which Paul called a "devil", namely "Hermeneutics", named after the god Hermes. Who as you see above was in league with the Fates.
I can see the Chess analogy, but what about other analogies, in things common to life now? If God is a great Chess player, then why can't he be a MASTER PROFILER?
larris
"If you continue (abide and live) in my word, then you shall be my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Jesus Christ. (John 8:31) | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/8/2004 4:27 AM (GMT -6) | | I would like to propose a different explanation on Jonah, even if it might be weird. We know that Balaam was a false prophet. Though he spoke some of the most compelling and detailed prophecies in the OT regarding Israel and the Messiah in Numbers, he is condemned as a false prophet all the way through to Revelation. In consindering Jonah, I maintain, that though he experienced miracles, he is a false prophet according to the definition of Deuteronomy 18. quote:
‘But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ “You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
By this definition, Jonah spoke an "unqualified message of destruction" to Nineveh and the destruction didn't happen. I think that this falseness is hinted at throughout Jonah. Jonah disobeys and runs to Tarshish. It is only after almost dying and after being held in the belly of the fish three days that he cries to God.
After this God tells Jonah to go to Nineveh and "proclaim the proclamation which I am going to tell you." It says that Jonah "went according to the workd of the Lord." It is interesting that it never says that Jonah proclaimed what God told Him to say. Jonah isn't recorded as preaching "God will judge you if you don't repent." The people are recorded as believing God, not Jonah, and repenting. The fact that Jonah didn't preach a qualified message is evidenced by 3:9, "Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we don't persih." They said "who knows" because Jonah hadn't made that clear.
At this point, after the people believed God and repented, God relents concerning the calamity that he had declared - conditionally (though Jonah didn't communicate this).
Here we see the evidences that Jonah was a false prophet and didn't deliver the word of God correctly. In 4:2 Jonah acknowledges that even when He was in His own country He knew that God's message of judgment he was to deliver to Nineveh was conditional on the people not repenting. He fled because Jonah wanted Nineveh judged. Jonah had more love for a worm than the people of Nineveh. He preached no gospel. Jonah only went because he was pressured by three days in the belly of a fish. It is interesting that we never even hear of the outcome with Jonah, except that God condemns him as being uncompassionate and Jonah wishes for death. The book leaves us with God and His character and Jonah wanting to die in response to it. There is never any indication that Jonah delivered the proper word of God or that he repented.
Jonah claimed that an event was going to happen, and it didn't. Because he didn't qualifiy it as he knew he must, he spoke presumptuously. Jonah's message was false because it was not complete. He is presumptuous and false according to Deut 18. We are told not to fear him.
Thus, God never "repented" but did what he always intended and Jonah knew this, though he wouldn't speak this truth to Nineveh. The people of Nineveh believed God and not Jonah.
Spen Lake
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 4/8/2004 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But I’m inclining these days to the belief that possibilities aren’t so tidy, and that God’s intending and willing, being free, are not as determined by even the possibilities as some might think the infinite intelligence argument suggests, at least in situations that hold out several equally good and workable options for God. There’s no reason to think he can’t intend one and freely change if he wants to. This need not imply indecisiveness of mind on God's part.
Picking up with something along these, I think the all possibilities God is supposed to know becomes blurred when considering the dymanics of, say, the human factor; it is hard to find only specific choices or possibilies in a continually revolving or shape-shifting mass (viz., the constant mobility of the mind). In other words, God's knowledge of the possibilities in a situation like this would be that God knows the possibilities are limitless. What He cannot know, then, in this situation is a finite amount of possibilities.
What this means is that if the dynamics of the human element, for example, are, in fact, limitless, then God does not know all of the possibilities and choices of mankind as finite. He only knows that they are not finite, and He will discover the shape-shift as it takes place. This does not put God in a disadvantage, even though this limitless possibility example is unlike the chess game where there is a finite amount of moves. God still knows all--He knows when something has or does not have limitless possibilities. Further, He is all-powerful--He is able to deal with anything that comes His way. He is never caught off guard. In that He knows the possibilities are limitless, He is prepared and is above the effects of all enacted possibilities and choices.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/8/2004 5:24 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I would like to propose a different explanation on Jonah, even if it might be weird. We know that Balaam was a false prophet. Though he spoke some of the most compelling and detailed prophecies in the OT regarding Israel and the Messiah in Numbers, he is condemned as a false prophet all the way through to Revelation. In consindering Jonah, I maintain, that though he experienced miracles, he is a false prophet
Jonah 4:1 But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry.
2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.
3 "Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."
4 The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"
5 Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city.
6 So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant.
7 But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it withered.
8 When the sun came up God appointed a scorching east wind, and the sun beat down on Jonah's head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, "Death is better to me than life."
9 Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."
10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.
11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"
Note:
1. There's no rebuke from God about the message Jonah gave Nineveh, none.
2. Jonah is mad at God for doing the opposite of His message! He's mad at God for having mercy on Nineveh.
3. God deals with this attitude, not the message he gave. After disobeying God once, why would Jonah disobey again? You don't think the sojourn in the belly of the great fish wasn't enough of a wakeup call?
4. Why would Jonah change a conditional message that offered some hope into a message ONLY about destruction towards a hostile city?
Where's the rebuke for the message?
Matthew 12:39,40
"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Luke 11:29,30
"As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, 'This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.'"
Jesus didn't consider Jonah a false prophet. I'll side with Him.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/8/2004 6:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,quote:
Laika says: Jesus didn't consider Jonah a false prophet. I'll side with Him.
Your passages quoting Jesus' references to the "sign of Jonah" have nothing to do with Jonah's message. It has to do with the fact that God saved a man who spent three days in the belly of a fish. This man was rebellious and disobedient. God's miracle of the storm/fish restrained the madness of a disobedient man. This is very similar to what God did to Balaam as recounted in 2 Peter 2:16, " but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet." quote:
Laika says: 2. Jonah is mad at God for doing the opposite of His message! He's mad at God for having mercy on Nineveh.
This is my point. God didn't do what Jonah said, thus according to Deut 18 Jonah is false. The Scripture tells us explicitly what the requirements for a prophet are and Jonah didn't meet them. quote:
Laika says: 3. God deals with this attitude, not the message he gave. After disobeying God once, why would Jonah disobey again? You don't think the sojourn in the belly of the great fish wasn't enough of a wakeup call?
It is the documented legacy of the entire history of Israel that man goes back to sinning. Tima and time again after God saves them the people go back to sin. The Exodus is a record of people who experienced miracles on a daily basis and still sinned and sinned and sinned. Nice idea, not supported by Scripture.
Balaam speaks the oracles of God that are true in Numbers 23, 24. quote:
, and whatever He shows me I will tell you.” So he went to a bare hill. Now God met Balaam, and he said to Him, “I have set up the seven altars, and I have offered up a bull and a ram on each altar.” Then the LORD put a word in Balaam’s mouth and said, “Return to Balak, and you shall speak thus.” So he returned to him, and behold, he was standing beside his burnt offering, he and all the leaders of Moab. He took up his £discourse and said,
“From Aram Balak has brought me,
Moab’s king from the mountains of the East,
‘Come curse Jacob for me,
And come, denounce Israel!’
“How shall I curse whom God has not cursed?
And how can I denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
“As I see him from the top of the rocks,
And I look at him from the hills;
Behold, a people who dwells apart,
And will not be reckoned among the nations.
“Who can count the dust of Jacob,
Or number the fourth part of Israel?
Let me die the death of the upright,
And let my end be like his!”
We see in Joshua 13:22 quote:
The sons of Israel also killed Balaam the son of Beor, the diviner, with the sword among the rest of their slain.
and 2 Peter 2:15 quote:
forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness
Jude 1:11 quote:
Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam
and Revelation 2:14 quote:
But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel
God spoke to Balaam and Balaam's words were blessing and true and yet God condemns Balaam by name in the New Testament. Jonah is nover looked upon in a good light. Your arguments are weak on Scripture to support your premise that Jonah is not a false prophet. Jesus never affirmed Jonah's message. God never affirmed Jonah's message. And Jonah is last depicted as being angry unto death against God for God's actions.
Spen Lake
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/8/2004 6:37 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Laika,quote:
Laika says: Jesus didn't consider Jonah a false prophet. I'll side with Him.
Your passages quoting Jesus' references to the "sign of Jonah" have nothing to do with Jonah's message.
Jesus spoke of the prophet Jonah, NOT the false prophet Jonah.
Look at the nasty things they said about Balaam, you listed below. Where's the same said about Jonah?
quote:
This man was rebellious and disobedient.
And then he obeyed.
Jonah 3:3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the LORD. The word God gave him to speak.
quote:
We see in Joshua 13:22 quote:
The sons of Israel also killed Balaam the son of Beor, the diviner, with the sword among the rest of their slain.
Where's the execution of Jonah?
quote:
and 2 Peter 2:15 quote:
forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness
Jude 1:11 quote:
Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam
and Revelation 2:14 [quote]But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel
Lots of rebukes of Balaam's teaching (the error of Balaam, the way of Balaam, the teaching of Balaam), where's the rebuke of Jonah's message?
God ONLY dealt with his attitude once he delivered the message God gave and then God acted in mercy instead.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/8/2004 6:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake: God didn't do what Jonah said, thus according to Deut 18 Jonah is false.
Tom: Dude, there’s nothing going for your theory that Jonah was a false prophet. Lay that one by the wayside and find some other way out!  I was just thinking, with regard to Hezekiah, God said “You will die; you will surely die; your sickness is unto death.” Then Hezekiah didn’t die from that sickness. What God said would happen didn’t happen. So I guess according to Deut 18 God is false prophet too? If you want to interpret Deut 18 in such a way that the foretold future is “locked” in you’ll have a hard time explaining a lot of passages. Now, one could argue that Isaiah’s prophecy to Hezekiah about his soon death was conditional even though no condition was expressly mentioned by the prophet. But once you do that, the door is open to interpret Jonah’s prophecy the same way. But if you DON’T allow for unexpressed conditions in prophecies, then even God turns out to be a false prophet.
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/8/2004 7:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika:  yokatta, ne
Tom: Okatta wasu nemi toku fokume susu ni. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/8/2004 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika: Even John Calvin agrees that Jonah did preach the exact same message God gave him.
Tom: And Calvin also agrees that he interpreted the text exactly as God determined him too (as has spenlake, as have you, and did I, la ti da ti da--the hills are alive with the sound...!).
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