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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 7:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
if God commands it, I have the ability to do it.
John 3:5-8 -- Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Did we ultimately have the "choice" in our natural birth? We were born; we didn't birth ourselves. What's the difference? Jesus is comparing being "born again" with our natural birth. Obviously, Nicodemus is "confused," but Jesus doesn't lay out a naturalistic explanation that "makes sense" -- He basically says the Spirit is "mysterious"...
John 3:36 -- Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
If something "remains" on someone, obviously it was already there. Those who do not believe (obey) are already condemned (3:18), because, ultimately, God's wrath is on them -- not because they didn't make the right choice. That's why we need grace, because we deserve God's wrath.
John 6:64 -- "But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Why did they still not believe? Jesus already knew who they were.
6:65 -- And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Doesn't that leave some without the "granting" by the Father? If not, why did He say that?
John 8:43-46 -- "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?"
Jesus asks why they do not understand Him. And his final answer to that question...
8:47 -- "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
The reason is not, from Jesus' own mouth, that they didn't make the right choice. The reason is that they are of the Devil.
John 10:24-27 -- So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock..."
The main reason they did not believe was because they were not His sheep. And, sheep are not the shepherd's because they "chose" the shepherd. The shepherd chose them.
10:27-29 -- "...My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
Who's in control of the sheep? The sheep, or the shepherd?
John 12:37-40 -- Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Why could they not believe? Maybe because God blinded their eyes and hardened their heart? But, if that's true, how could God judge people who weren't even able to believe?!?!
John 13:18 -- "I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen."
But, wasn't it their choice that mattered, not His?
John 15:13-14 -- "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you."
Hmm...Jesus said he only laid down His life for those who obey Him? But, didn't He die for everyone?
15:19 -- "If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Why does "the world" hate God's people? Because, He chose us -- not because we chose Him.
John 16:27 -- "For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God."
But, doesn't God love everyone in the same way?
I could go on, but hopefully you are seeing some things you may have overlooked before... | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 7:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
That's why He's speaking to them in parables. The thing about parables is if you want to understand them, you can. "If you seek Me, you will find Me" is a promise of God's. So those who heard the parable and really were seeking God, could dig the meaning out. But those not seeking God, wouldn't bother.
But, "no one seeks God" (Rom 3:10-18). I take "no one" to mean "no one." So, what has to happen before someone even seeks God? Naturally, we don't want God (Rom. 8:7). Naturally, we hate God.
quote:
As for justification, I can't do it by myself BUT, God isn't going to force it on me either. If I assent, He will come along and give the power to do it.
Isn't justification by grace through faith? By grace means from God. God is the initiator. Even our response (repentance and faith -- what we do) is by grace (Rom. 12:3, Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25). | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Explain the parable of Jesus standing at the door and knocking, to me.
That wasn't a parable. It's in Revelation 3, and written to the church at Laodicea. And, the typical interpretation of this passage is totally out of context.
quote:
Why is Jesus knocking at the door?
The church is not really a church. There are no true believers in it.
quote:
Why is He waiting? What is He waiting for?
If even one sinner repents and is born again, He will enter the church. It was a false church.
quote:
Who opens the door?
Christ was telling the church that He would enter it if they responded to His rebuking letter. Nowhere does it say, "God is knocking on the door of your heart..."
quote:
Why does He say, "if any man...."?
The object of the "anyone" was those who were in that church.
One passage taken out of context doesn't negate the majority of the rest of Scripture. The application of this passage to believers today is that some who claim to be really aren't at all -- even whole churches.
"He who overcomes," in John's language, is someone who is a true Christian (1 John 5:4,5). | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
did Jesus possess their bodies?
I guess you could use that kind of language. God may "possess" a woman's body for her to give birth to a child (Gen. 29:31, 30:22).
John 1:12-13 -- But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh (of human decision) nor of the will of man, but of God.
So, not everyone has "the right" to become children of God. And, being "born again" is not based on any human decision or will, but on God. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 7:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
As for justification...
I thought we were justified by what someone else did...
Rom. 3:23-24 -- For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...
4:25 -- ...Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
5:9 -- Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
1 Cor. 6:11 -- But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Titus 3:7 -- ...So that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Yes, faith is our response to God's work, but Christ's death and resurrection actually accomplished forgiveness and justification for His people (not everyone). | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 7:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
...if you are going to post questions about open theism and post statements about it, you may want to learn what open theists actually believe. Much of what you state is simply inacturate.
I've read quite a bit, but I am honestly just trying to confront what I know. I want to understand the urge to make the truth less offensive.
quote:
In your theology, it sounds as if you are saying we are unreal, God maniqulated characters that have no connection with a real life.
No, I am saying that we are ultimately participants in someone's else work.
John 6:29 -- Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Philippians 2:12-13 -- Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (a command which entails responsibility, but...), for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
In my view, that is a "mystery," but that doesn't seem to be an acceptable explanation here. I don't know that I can rationally reconcile me doing something and God doing the same something, at the same time. If God's really doing it, shouldn't we just give up (the natural conclusion from those who disagree with Reformed theology)? Or, because God is doing it, should we work even harder to accomplish His will (which quite literally makes us seem like mere robots)? | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jesus chose His twelve disciples for ministry...Each one of them had to respond to Jesus' call to ministry.
So, some guy walks down the road and tells you to quit your job and follow him, and you just say, "Sure, why not?" That's ridiculous. Something else was going on besides just their response... | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/17/2004 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiefofsinrs
quote:
if God commands it, I have the ability to do it.
John 3:5-8 -- Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Did we ultimately have the "choice" in our natural birth? We were born; we didn't birth ourselves. What's the difference?
So you're saying EVERYONE will be saved? Since everyone was automatically physically born, you must be saying everyone will automatically spiritually reborn as well. I thought you were coming from a calvinist bent?
quote:
John 3:36 -- Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
volitional
John 6:64 -- "But there are some of you who do not believe."
volitional
Now even you are quoting the multitudinous verses that confirm the free will we have.
quote:
John 8:43-46 -- "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?"
Why is Jesus chastising them for not believing in Him? Unless they had the ability to believe or not believe in Him.
quote:
John 10:24-27 -- So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock..."
"You do not believe", volitional
quote:
John 12:37-40 -- Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
volitional
[quote]
John 15:13-14 -- "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you."
if you do what I command you volitional
Let's take a look at when free will disappeared from the church teachings, to be replaced by augustine's pagan greek thought. Back later.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 10:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Let's take a look at when free will disappeared from the church teachings
Maybe when the Bible was written, since that language ("free will") is absent from Scripture altogether. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 10:54 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
I thought we were justified by what someone else did..
We are but we have to receive it.
I've mentioned our response, our acceptance of God's work, in several different ways but you are ignoring it.
quote:
If you don't open the door, Jesus doesn't come in.
If I haven't been chosen by God, if I am not one of His sheep, a part of His Church, one of His friends, I will never let Him in...
quote:
Now I believe we're only justified by Christ's work, that's scripture. And I also believe I have to accept this free gift, that's scripture.
I have not disagreed with the acceptance. I have stated that even the ability to believe, repent, have faith, etc. are all gifts from God. Without a new heart, without a new mind, without new desires, we would still be under Satan's authority as our father, and we would never choose God.
The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. That's why Christians look like idiots to rest of the world -- our story is ridiculous. It's illogical, irrational. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
But it doesn't say Jesus dragged them off, did it? They had to volitionally follow Him.
Interestingly, the same word used for "draw" in John 6 is used to mean "drag" in other parts of Scripture. So, quite literally, no one can be saved apart from God's dragging. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/17/2004 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Chief
This is very similar to Romans 8:14, "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." The Greek word for "led" is ago. This word is also used for arrested. It is used to lead a donkey. It is the same word used when we are "brought" before governors. There is a very active sense on the part of God and a passive sense on the part of the one being led. It is an interesting word study and is a word most often used for prisoners. if we look at the following verse in Romans it is even used in a slavery context, both before and after. quote:
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
Those who are led and arrested by the Spirit, these are the sons of God.
Spen Lake
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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/17/2004 4:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone, I'm new to this board, but I've been keeping up with the topic started by Chiefofsinrs. First of all, I just want to say that I used to be in Chief's shoes (I grew up in a Reformed Church and was a devout 5-point Calvinist throughout high school and my first 3 years of college, and have only just recently "seen the light" and converted to Open Theism - and I was quite a reluctant convert at that! So for those of you OVers that occasionally feel like pulling your hair out over guys like Chief and Spen, don't worry! There's still hope for them! (insert smiley here - not sure how to do that yet!) Anyways, I would just like to make some comments on some of the things Chief has said so far.
Chiefofsinrs:
You said,
quote:
John 3:5-8 -- Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Did we ultimately have the "choice" in our natural birth? We were born; we didn't birth ourselves. What's the difference? Jesus is comparing being "born again" with our natural birth. Obviously, Nicodemus is "confused," but Jesus doesn't lay out a naturalistic explanation that "makes sense" -- He basically says the Spirit is "mysterious"...
As you know, Jesus was using an analogy when speaking to Nicodemus about spritual rebirth. However, if you press any kind of metaphorical language too far, it not only loses its intended meaning and power, it becomes absurd. For example, since there is a physical gestation period of approximately nine months between physical conception and physical birth, should we therefore conclude that there is a corresponding spiritual gestation period of approximately nine months as well? Of course not; that's just silly. The only point Jesus was trying to make was that, as you said, we don't "birth ourselves." It is by God's will and power that we are regenerated by His Spirit after responding to His grace. We cannot will ourselves to be reborn - God must do that. All we can do is meet the conditions He has set forth (repentance and faith, which God commands). We cannot "will ourselves" to be regenerated - that is the will and work of God alone.
quote:
John 1:12-13 -- But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh (of human decision) nor of the will of man, but of God.
So, not everyone has "the right" to become children of God. And, being "born again" is not based on any human decision or will, but on God.
I agree fully. Only those who RECEIEVE HIM and BELIEVE IN HIS NAME are given this divine right. But these are all human choices, and nowhere does it say we are incapable of making them. Everyone is given the right to make the choice to receive and believe in Him - and after we meet God's conditions (FAITH/BELIEF) we are given the right to become children of God, and are regenerated by God's will as a result of our meeting His condtions.
quote:
John 3:36 -- Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
If something "remains" on someone, obviously it was already there. Those who do not believe (obey) are already condemned (3:18), because, ultimately, God's wrath is on them -- not because they didn't make the right choice. That's why we need grace, because we deserve God's wrath.
God's wrath remains on those who are in a state of willful disobediance, which is indeed a choice! Those who aren't in a willful state of disobediance to God (such as babies and young children) are not under His wrath - such an unjust and immoral idea is utterly ridiculous, and cannot be found in the sciptures. Children are born morally neutral - no one begins life with God's wrath on them. This is something we choose by our own disobedience. Only in this state does it "remain" on us until we repent and believe.
quote:
John 6:64 -- "But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
From the beginning of what? John doesn't tell us. I believe it's stretching it to believe this is a reference to Judas being reprobated from all eternity - it probably simply means "from the beginning of their choice not to believe" and from the very moment Judas chose to betray Jesus. This would seem to flow along with the context.
quote:
Why did they still not believe? Jesus already knew who they were.
6:65 -- And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Doesn't that leave some without the "granting" by the Father? If not, why did He say that?
Ok, I'm going to offer a slightly different explanation of the passages in John chapter 6 that are being debated than has been put forth already. Please hear me out. This argument can be found more in-depth at the following site:
http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin10.html
For a fuller and more developed argument and thesis, please check it out.
Here is the gist of the argument: Jesus spoke to the Jewish crowds in parables/riddles in order to keep them in the dark with the intention of making the crucifixion possible without overiding man's freewill, while openly explaining his parables to a select few who would go on to be the pillars of His Church. The gospel of Mark tells us that Jesus did not speak to the crowds and religous leaders without a parable! In this way - and in this way only - were they "blinded" to the Gospel. This has nothing to do with God witholding some kind of "irresistable grace" from the crowds (b/c it says they WOULD'VE repented and believed in Him had He not done this! This fact alone refutes the idea that God has to bestow onto a select few saving/spritually enlightening grace in order for them to repent and believe). During Jesus' earthly ministry, it was only to His disciples - His inner circle of faithful followers - that He expounded the true meaning of the parables. This is because it was absolutely necessary for the crucifixion to occur. Having the majority of the crowds on the side of the religious leaders was a must in order for them to carry out the crucifixion, which was a God-ordained event. If the crowds/religious leaders had understood the "mystery" that God had hidden, they would never have crucified Him. Had Jesus not purposefully "pulled the wool over their eyes," the crowds might have believed on Him, and the plan would'nt have unfolded the way it did.
The only way the crucifixion could be carried out was if the crowds and the leaders rejected Jesus. Therefore, Jesus' words and actions were designed to force the already self-hardened Jews to reject Him fully to the point of going through with their plan. This is very apparent in John 6. The riddle about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, and about His being the "bread from heaven" was intended to anger the religous leaders and drive away the crowds!
During this unique time in history, Jesus appointed only a handful of Jews (not for salvation, but for their office as disciples/apostles) to be the core of His church. He spent three years preparing them to be missionaries to the whole world. Judas was elected in the same way as the others, but he abandoned His God-ordained role as a disciple, and as a result, was weaved into God's plan for a different use (betrayal). While Judas could've just as easily not have chosen the path he did, this he did not do. By his choice, he became part of the other, larger group of blinded Jews.
However, after the crucifixion and resurrection, this situation no longer existed, and many of the Jews who had been hardened against Jesus - those who were part of the mob that cried "away with him, crucify him" - were then converted on the Day of Pentecost, and at least 3000 of them were baptized and added to the Jerusalem Church (see Acts 2:22-24, 36-41). Although many of them still continued willfully in their blindness, the unique situation of God allowing many of the Jews to be blinded so they would reject His Son ended with Christ's death. When we read verses such as the ones given below in this light, I believe they make much more sense:
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
At this point, only the disciples were being drawn by the Father (to them were the mysteries of Jesus' parables and teachings revealed), b/c they alone had been appointed to be His disciples at that point, while the rest of the Jewish nation had to reject Christ. And even if you don't buy into this view, this verse is no problem for Open Theism - Jesus does not tell us that those who are drawn MUST come to Him; He is merely saying that those who, after having been drawn and then come to Him by faith, will be resurrected at the last day.)
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
Again, during this unique situation, only a select few of the Jews were granted to be His disciples, because they would serve very important roles in the future. They would be the nuclei of the future Church, so to speak. The rest (the self-hardened and blinded Jews) would serve the function of orchestrating the crucifixion. Judas was originally a disciple, but he willfully opted out of his God-ordained role as a disciple and chose to become a part of the larger group.
However, while this was going on during Christ's earthly ministry, it clearly ended after His death!
John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
With Christ's death, all would then be drawn (btw, I'm glad you pointed out that the word for "draw" implies a sort of "dragging," b/c this verse uses the very same word. It seems then that all are being "dragged" to Him now - which, when looking back at chapter 6, I take to mean all will be taught the message of the gospel - see John 6:44-45) to Him and given the opportunity and privaledge to be His disciples ("All" includes everyone, does it not?).
quote:
John 8:43-46 -- "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?"
Jesus asks why they do not understand Him. And his final answer to that question...
8:47 -- "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
The reason is not, from Jesus' own mouth, that they didn't make the right choice. The reason is that they are of the Devil.
It was because they made the wrong choice that they couldn't hear Him. They were "of the devil" because they chose to be of the devil through their willful disobedience. Jesus had been debating with certain Jewish leaders who claimed a special, spiritual relationship with God on the grounds that they were descendents of Abraham (see 8:31). Christ pointed out that they were not Abraham's seed, b/c they were willfully disobediant. By rejecting Jesus, they were obeying Satan and were thus in spiritual darkness. In such a willfully disobedient and blinded state, they belonged to Satan, not God. And God honored their choice and weaved them into His redemptive plan (as He did Judas) except instead of being part of the believing, faithful remnant, they became part of the mass that put Him to death (which, again, was necessary but did not mean they were eternally damned - thousands of Jews ended up believing after the atonement and Christ began to DRAG ALL TO HIMSELF through the teaching and spreading of the gospel message).
quote:
John 10:24-27 -- So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock..."
The main reason they did not believe was because they were not His sheep. And, sheep are not the shepherd's because they "chose" the shepherd. The shepherd chose them.
10:27-29 -- "...My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
Who's in control of the sheep? The sheep, or the shepherd?
Again, Jesus' disciples were the only "sheep" He was talking about in this context. They were the "little flock." And by making the decision to follow Him, they did choose to be His sheep. They chose to "hear His voice" and continued hearing His voice. The "choosing" by Jesus in these verses is about their appointment to the role of His disciples, not their election to salvation. Indeed, Jesus appointed them as disciples (they didn't "appoint themselves") but they could've rejected their call to service and chosen not to be His sheep, just as Judas did. We have every reason to believe that Judas was once one of Christ's sheep, but then "strayed from the flock." He was chosen and appointed just as the rest were. ("Did I not choose you the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?")
quote:
But, "no one seeks God" (Rom 3:10-18). I take "no one" to mean "no one." So, what has to happen before someone even seeks God? Naturally, we don't want God (Rom. 8:7). Naturally, we hate God.
Actually, "naturally," (if you mean by birth) we are morally neutral, not God-haters. No one is born evil and hating God. Even pagan Gentiles, by nature, have consciences and have the ability to choose to obey or disobey the law.
Romans 2:14-15
14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them..
Furthermore (back to Romans 3), it is not wise to base the foundation of our systematic theology on poetic verse. Paul was not making a theological statement in his quoting of the Psalms. He was using the colorful and expressive poetry of the Psalms to make his point that Gentile and Jew alike are under the law and sin. Again, if you press the quote he uses too far, it takes away from the very argument that he's making, that no man is without excuse! If it is impossible for man to seek God, it would be unjust for God to condem him for doing what he could never do! Moreover, I could just as easily use non-poetic phrases to prove the opposite of your theology - for example, Acts 17:26 tells us "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth,and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being..." While the Psalms are wonderful for prayer, meditation and adding some extra kick to an eloquent argument against self-righteous Jews of the 1st century, I'm siding with Paul (and his very literal, non-poetic words) on this one. How about some more literally spoken, non-poetic words? Here's a few: I take "all men" and "the world" to mean ALL MEN and THE WORLD (KOSMOS). How do you reconcile that with your theology? "All" means "some" and "world (kosmos)" means "elect?"
quote:
Even our response (repentance and faith -- what we do) is by grace (Rom. 12:3, Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25).
I beg to differ. Let's take a look at these "prooftexts."
Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
As you know, it's important to remember the context when attempting to interpret any given passage. So let's do that. When we examine the context, the first thing we realize is that Paul is not talking here about some kind of "irresistably-given saving faith." Nor is he talking about saving faith, period. He's not even talking about salvation for crying out loud! The context is spiritual gifts and our knowledge and experience in building up the Body of Christ. The "faith," here should therefore be seen as a reference to the degree of revealed knowledge and God-given Christian experience which each have received as members of the Body of Christ, and the power and gifts given to us in being useful in the Body. The context does not even remotely suggest the interpretation you are giving. Try again.
Acts 11
18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
As you know, the word for repentance literally means a change of mind, and in this context most likely refers to a change of religious views/convictions. As repentance signifies a change of life and conduct, it's most likely used here to signify a change from a false religion to the true one; from idolatry, to the worship of the true God. And of course, life is found in the worship of the true God, whereas death is found in the worship of pagan gods (which the Gentiles worshipped). These pagan, (former) polytheistic Gentiles were now entering into Covenant with God and having religous truth revealed to them (to the surprise and joy of believing Jews!) In cases where it is spoken of the Jews, it no doubt signifies their change from a contempt of the Messiah to reverence for him, and the consequent embracing of the Christian religion. However you wish to interpret it in this context, however, clearly this was something now granted to ALL Gentiles. But later in 2 Timothy, we read this:
2 Timothy 2:25
..in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
Again, let's turn to the context for answers: otherwise, it just contradicts what we just read in Acts. For one thing, Paul's talking about something we ourselves do to help bring people in opposition to the faith to the truth. This is how God has chosen to work: by cooperating with those who, in love, choose to serve Him ("a servant of the Lord," v. 24) We are to use every means which we have reason to believe God might bless in order to bring people to the truth. Paul intimates that, as bad as some people are, no one is outside of the reach of God’s mercy, and we are to do everything we can to bring them to the truth. If we will do our part, God will do His. Ironically for you, just before this passage, Paul says this:
2 Timothy 2
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
Wow, looks to me like Paul expected us to cleanse ourselves from being a vessel of dishonor in order to become a vessel of honor! Wait, I thought God was responsible for everthing we ddid or didn't do...
quote:
John 6:29 -- Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Here, all Jesus is saying is that belief is the divinely ordained condition God expects us to meet in order to be saved. Far from nullifying grace as external works of merit do, faith actually establishes it! Hear Paul:
Romans 4:16-17
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all...in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did...
And again:
Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, having been counted righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Peter also says:
1 Peter 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
So, faith is what establishes God's grace and allows Him to keep us by His power for our salvation. It is this condition that we must meet - God does not repent or believe for us!
quote:
Philippians 2:12-13 -- Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (a command which entails responsibility, but...), for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
You are absolutely right that the command to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling entails responsiblity! The second half of this verse simply tells us HOW we are able to put our choices into action. First of all, it should be noted that the word for "works" literally means "energizes!" It has nothing to do with God manipulating us as puppets to do whatever He wants. We must make the choice and have a willing heart, and He provides us with the strength to carry out our choices and bear fruit. Just as we can do nothing without Christ, our responsibility is clearly to ABIDE in Him by faith (an inward choice).
Well, that's all for now; I'll be back for more, later.
In Christ,
Aaron
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/17/2004 4:52 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Reynolds
Hi everyone, I'm new to this board, but I've been keeping up with the topic started by Chiefofsinrs.
Welcome. New guy brings the doughnuts, you know. 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Reynolds
Chiefofsinrs:
You said,
quote:
John 3:5-8 -- Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Did we ultimately have the "choice" in our natural birth? We were born; we didn't birth ourselves. What's the difference? Jesus is comparing being "born again" with our natural birth. Obviously, Nicodemus is "confused," but Jesus doesn't lay out a naturalistic explanation that "makes sense" -- He basically says the Spirit is "mysterious"...
As you know, Jesus was using an analogy when speaking to Nicodemus about spritual rebirth. However, if you press any kind of metaphorical language too far, it not only loses its intended meaning and power, it becomes absurd. For example, since there is a physical gestation period of approximately nine months between physical conception and physical birth, should we therefore conclude that there is a corresponding spiritual gestation period of approximately nine months as well? Of course not; that's just silly. The only point Jesus was trying to make was that, as you said, we don't "birth ourselves." It is by God's will and power that we are regenerated by His Spirit after responding to His grace. We cannot will ourselves to be reborn - God must do that. All we can do is meet the conditions He has set forth (repentance and faith, which God commands). We cannot "will ourselves" to be regenerated - that is the will and work of God alone.
Plus, chiefofsinrs should know that if he's comparing natural birth with spiritual birth, EVERYONE was physically born automatically, thus evidently chiefofsinrs believes EVERYONE will automatically be saved as well.
chiefofsinrs, are you a universalist?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/17/2004 5:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiefofsinrs
quote:
Explain the parable of Jesus standing at the door and knocking, to me.
That wasn't a parable. It's in Revelation 3, and written to the church at Laodicea. And, the typical interpretation of this passage is totally out of context.
It doesn't matter if Jesus is knocking on the door for salvation or TO BORROW A CUP OF SUGAR, it shows the point that He HAS TO BE INVITED IN BY THE OCCUPANT, VOLITIONALLY.
chiefofsinrs, EVERYTHING you do in life is based on the belief that you have "free will", "volition", the ability to choose your course of action. You started out by asking if Open Theists would keep their kids from running into the street, I assume you would willfully do the same thing to rescue your kid.
Then you contradict EVERYTHING you do in life, including protecting your kid, by saying, like Shakespeare, we're all just actors on a stage following a script. EVERYTHING you do in life contradicts your belief in determinism.
Like a Hindu who doesn't believe in reality, yet stops his car at stoplights, you act totally contrary to your beliefs.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/17/2004 6:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Laika said:
quote:
It doesn't matter if Jesus is knocking on the door for salvation or TO BORROW A CUP OF SUGAR it shows the point that He HAS TO BE INVITED IN BY THE OCCUPANT, VOLITIONALLY.
lol! Right on, Laika.
Chiefofsinrs,
I'm having some difficulty understanding your interpretation of the Revelation 3:14-22 passage. In response to the argument raised that Jesus was knocking at the door of the lukewarm church of Laodicea, pleading with them to open up their door and receive him into their church, you said:
quote:
The church is not really a church. There are no true believers in it.
Well, regardless of whether there were only a few believers left in the congregation or none at all, it seems as if Christ wanted everyone, individually (for it is individuals that make up a church), to "let Him in" so that He could "dine with them." I think that's the whole reason why Jesus was "standing at the door" and knocking.
Rev.3:19 As many as I love (Jesus clearly loved each one of the members that made up the body of the church he was rebuking) I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent (Now He's telling the ones He is rebuking - those he loves - to repent - which is the first step in salvation) 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes (he who hears his voice, repents and opens up the door - addressed to all the unbelievers of the church with no hint or suggestion that such things were impossible unless they were first zapped with some kind of "irresistable grace") I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
So in your view, was Jesus simply taunting this unbelieving church (which He claimed to love), knowing full well that they couldn't do such a thing (hear/repent/open up the door) yet going on to mention the reward they would receive if they could?
You said Jesus' statement about them opening up the door had nothing to do with "the door of their hearts." And in response to the question "Who opens the door?" you said:
quote:
Christ was telling the church that He would enter it if they responded to His rebuking letter.
Well I was just wondering, how exactly do you think Jesus enters a church?
Thanks,
Aaron
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 9:11 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
are you a universalist?
1 Tim 4:10 -- ...We have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
I wonder what the purpose is of Paul's distinction between "all people" and "those who believe."
I'm sure a few have already put me in a box, but I'm really just trying to find answers. If I were to honestly represent myself I would say I'm more often than not a whitewashed tomb. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 9:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I just want to say that I used to be in Chief's shoes (I grew up in a Reformed Church and was a devout 5-point Calvinist throughout high school and my first 3 years of college, and have only just recently "seen the light" and converted to Open Theism - and I was quite a reluctant convert at that! So for those of you OVers that occasionally feel like pulling your hair out over guys like Chief and Spen, don't worry! There's still hope for them!
I've actually only been to three distinctively "Reformed" churches in my life, but I can see how one would assume based on my focus on God's work instead of man's.
quote:
if you press any kind of metaphorical language too far, it not only loses its intended meaning and power, it becomes absurd.
I agree. I suck at analogies too.
quote:
The only point Jesus was trying to make was that, as you said, we don't "birth ourselves." It is by God's will and power that we are regenerated by His Spirit after responding to His grace. We cannot will ourselves to be reborn - God must do that. All we can do is meet the conditions He has set forth (repentance and faith, which God commands). We cannot "will ourselves" to be regenerated - that is the will and work of God alone.
I agree with God's initiating. I'll get back to you on the rest...
quote:
Only those who RECEIEVE HIM and BELIEVE IN HIS NAME are given this divine right. But these are all human choices, and nowhere does it say we are incapable of making them. Everyone is given the right to make the choice to receive and believe in Him - and after we meet God's conditions (FAITH/BELIEF) we are given the right to become children of God, and are regenerated by God's will as a result of our meeting His condtions.
I honestly just can't fathom God sitting in Heaven waiting for people to respond. Maybe I'm just out of the "in." But, when weighing out the verses that speak of God's choosing apart from man's willing with the volitional commands (that I have never denied), the balance falls hard, for me, to God and His purposes, not man and his obedience.
quote:
God's wrath remains on those who are in a state of willful disobediance, which is indeed a choice! Those who aren't in a willful state of disobediance to God (such as babies and young children) are not under His wrath - such an unjust and immoral idea is utterly ridiculous, and cannot be found in the sciptures. Children are born morally neutral - no one begins life with God's wrath on them. This is something we choose by our own disobedience. Only in this state does it "remain" on us until we repent and believe.
So, where from Scripture do we get the idea that humans are "neutral" and what is the age that a human is responsible? My 3 and 4 year old sons are starting to understand things about God, but they are definitely sinful. I wouldn't call their sin anything else. They are willfully disobedient to God over and over again. If I can't tell them they are being unloving and disobedient to a Holy and Righteous God, then I have nothing to tell them. If they are "neutral" then I shouldn't expect anything good from them, and I should expect that God would have mercy on them anyway.
What exactly did Paul mean in Ephesians by saying that we were "by nature children of wrath"? When exactly did that occur?
quote:
It has nothing to do with God manipulating us as puppets to do whatever He wants.
Puppets matter... | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 9:28 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Plus, chiefofsinrs should know that if he's comparing natural birth with spiritual birth, EVERYONE was physically born automatically, thus evidently chiefofsinrs believes EVERYONE will automatically be saved as well.
All I was saying is that God causes the birth of humans (not, ultimately, their parents or the child), and that God causes the new birth in His people (not, ultimately, someone else's winsome argument or their own choice). | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 9:50 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
You started out by asking if Open Theists would keep their kids from running into the street, I assume you would willfully do the same thing to rescue your kid.
My use of that analogy was to show that God saves His kids. A 3-year-old may kick and scream that his father violated his course of action (his freedom), but the end result is that the child is saved from death and saved to life. That's what matters. In a universal atonement that says everyone has the ability to be saved, no one is actually saved at the Cross. The kids are left to themselves.
quote:
Then you contradict EVERYTHING you do in life, including protecting your kid, by saying, like Shakespeare, we're all just actors on a stage following a script. EVERYTHING you do in life contradicts your belief in determinism.
I also believe that using rational arguments instead of biblical ones is futile. Since I believe that humans are basically evil and ignorant, I will not put my faith in pounds of meat.
I think Paul made it clear that his own view of grace would logically lead to lawlessness, and then made clear objections to those claims.
Suppose my wife tells me, "I will never divorce you, no matter what you do to me. I will love you always, and that will never change." Using human reasoning alone, I would think, "Man...I can do whatever I want! I can treat my wife like crap and she doesn't care." Using Paul's interjection, "By no means!" My wife's unconditional love toward me should bring about my loving response, not the contrary. Knowing that she will love me forever and that her love is not based on my response to her love, I should imitate that love toward her. That is exactly how I see Scripture portraying God. Never means never to me. Everlasting means everlasting.
If my salvation was something I was in control of, something I could lose, like car keys, I would lose it every day. Eventually, I would just give up. I don't want that kind of burden.
Focusing on only part of the picture leads to common misunderstandings. Maybe my understanding seems foolish, but if I'm bringing God the most glory in my foolishness, so be it -- I don't care. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/17/2004 9:57 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So in your view, was Jesus simply taunting this unbelieving church (which He claimed to love), knowing full well that they couldn't do such a thing (hear/repent/open up the door) yet going on to mention the reward they would receive if they could?
Yes, I believe everyone deserves eternal punishment for their own sin, and that God chooses whom He will reveal Himself to. Those whom He doesn't, receive what they deserve. Those whom He does, receive mercy. And, there are numerous passages of Scripture that seem to contradict and "taunt" at those who were, from God's standpoint, incapable of responding.
We can't know everything. | | Back to Top | | |
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