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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/18/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | Chiefofsinrs,
You asked:
quote:
So, where from Scripture do we get the idea that humans are "neutral" and what is the age that a human is responsible?
Well, the very first instance of this idea of moral neutrality in humans is found "in the beginning," with the creation of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve were created with the freedom to go either way, and I believe - based on what scripture tells us - that it is in this state that all children are born. Notice that Adam and Eve did NOT have to have a sinful nature in order to sin. Nor do we. Nor do our desires control our choices. Motives, desires, etc., are simply enabling factors in our decision making; they are not compelling. For example, a born-again believer having a strong and "dominant" desire to love and serve God does not mean he or she cannot at times turn away from God and sin. Nor is it impossible for someone with a strong and "dominant" desire to sin to respond to God in faith, or even seek Him.
We choose what kind of desire (or "master") we want to obey (whether God or Satan/sin).
Romans 6
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
"Nature" is not something with which we are born, but something we develop over time as we make choices in response to outward (and inward) stimuli - temptation, God's grace and mercy, etc. I believe every person determines what kind of nature he or she will ultimately have. If we repeatedly choose sin, we will develop a hardened, sinful nature (which, over time, leads to "total depravity") but if we choose to yield to God and subit to His will, we are conformed to the likeness of Christ.
Furthermore, sin is not something that can be transmitted as if it were genetic. It is a willful decision that moral agents make.
Ezekiel 18
4"Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right...
9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully--
He is just;
He shall surely live!"
Says the Lord GOD.
19 "Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21"But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
The human spirit is not inherited from our parents, but is given to us directly by God. We are therefore to be as pure as the Source from which we came.
Ecclesiastes 12
7Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Hebrews 12
9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
Those who are later in life "children of the devil" or "children of wrath" did not start off that way, but began as children God: innocent and pure. Men are created with rightstanding before God (for they have not the capacity to willfully sin against Him) and only later do we morally rebel.
Ecclesiastes 7
29 Truly, this only I have found:
That God made men upright,
But they have sought out many schemes."
Even Paul admits to a time earlier in his life during which he was "alive" (in contrast to his being spiritually dead, or separated, from God because of his transgressing the law, which is shown in the entire chapter of Romans 7).
Romans 7
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
Everyone is responsible for his own conduct, and will not be held accountable for that which he could not help. (Romans 14:12 - "So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.")
Sinfulness commences not at birth but during the period of one's life characterized as "youth."
Genesis 8
21And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Jeremiah 3
25We lie down in our shame,
And our reproach covers us.
For we have sinned against the LORD our God,
We and our fathers,
From our youth even to this day,
And have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God."
This is probably during early teens (though certainly different for every child, since everyone's unique), once children become totally responsible for their moral choices, instead of simply (and ignorantly) imitating those around them.
A child must reach a certain level of maturity before he or she is able to morally choose between good and evil .
Deuteronomy 1
34 "And the LORD heard the sound of your words, and was angry, and took an oath, saying, 35 "Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers, 36 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him and his children I am giving the land on which he walked, because he wholly followed the LORD.' 37 The LORD was also angry with me for your sakes, saying, "Even you shall not go in there. 38 Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall go in there. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
39 "Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
Romans 9
11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Jeremiah 19
2And go out to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the Potsherd Gate; and proclaim there the words that I will tell you, 3and say, "Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will bring such a catastrophe on this place, that whoever hears of it, his ears will tingle.
4"Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind), 6therefore behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
The "innocents" were the children.
Isaiah 7
15Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
Even Jesus experienced a time during which he was not morally responsible. Afterwards, He had a choice.
Moreover, the qualities of little children are set forth as models for those who would aspire to enter the kingdom of God.
Matthew 18
3and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19
14But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
1 Corinthians 14
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
In orther words, we are to be innocent like "babes" but in understanding we must act like the morally responsible agents we are.
quote:
What exactly did Paul mean in Ephesians by saying that we were "by nature children of wrath"? When exactly did that occur?
In this passage, "nature" is something acquired by our choice to walk according to Satan. It can denote a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become our character. It can also mean "by custom."
Hope that helps.
In Christ,
Aaron
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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/18/2004 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
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It has nothing to do with God manipulating us as puppets to do whatever He wants.
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Puppets matter...
Chiefofsinrs,
Would you marry a puppet? Would you DIE for a puppet? Just wondering.
Aaron | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/18/2004 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Would you marry a puppet? Would you DIE for a puppet? Just wondering.
Those who live in the Matrix assume that they are in full control of what is going on, but in reality they are not. Only when they find out the Truth do they fight against it. If they never knew the Truth, they would go on living their lives as if their "reality" was absolutely real. Some are given more insight than others -- the Truth. Some are not. Either those who know the Truth can accept and embrace it, or they can try to dethrone that which is in control (And, yes, you can only take my Matrix analogy so far).
So, if I and you are ultimately, in the extremely wide angle of things (God's mysterious purpose), puppets, then so be it. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/18/2004 10:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Aaron,
Thank you for sharing the passage from Jeremiah 19 quote:
"Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind), therefore behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
You are confusing two issues in using this verse to support your belief concerning the sin nature. As sinners, when we sin, we exert our will in accordance with our desires, which are evil, because we inherited a nature that was dead towards God. These children had not yet had the opportunity to exercise their will according to the nature that they were born with, and in that sense they were innocent. This has nothing to say supporting your claim that they had an innocent nature. It is simply saying that the manifestations of their nature hadn't yet been manifested.
A similar concept is found in Romans 5, "for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." Those who sinned after Adam, until the giving of the Law, didn't sin "in the likeness of offense" as Adam, because they didn't have the Law directly given to them by God to disobey. With the cherubim guarding the tree, they didn't have access to the same forbidden action that Adam had. That they sinned anyway is clear in that death ruled. They simply acted as sinners act, by sinning. This verse provides a certain kind of innocence existing until the Law came - not lack of sin or being sinners.
Sinners "sin" because they are sinners. Until they manifest "sin," sinners are innocent of sinning. These children of sinners, born in the likeness and with the natures of their fathers, were simply sinners who hadn't had the opportunity to sin yet.
Spen Lake
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/18/2004 4:04 PM (GMT -6) | | Theres no such thing are jumbo shrimp! NONONONO | | Back to Top | | |
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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/18/2004 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Why are "innocent sinners" innocent if they're sinners?
Why are people who haven't sinned, sinners?
Are people who have never skied, skiers?
Are people who have never tap danced, tap dancers?
Are people who have never played football, football players?
square circles
married batchelors
innocent sinners
logical calvinists
Lol! That's great! Thanks, Laika. It is just the sort of ridiculous argumentation Spenlake is using (no offense, Spen; I used to say similar things myself all the time when I was a Calvinist) that caused me to begin to reconsider my theological stance. I was just tired of resorting to such absurd statements, and having to end my arguments with cop-out phrases like, "it's a mystery" when pressed with logic.
Aaron | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/18/2004 5:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Romans 11:33-36 (NHRV):
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of man! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of man, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/18/2004 5:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Reynolds
Hi everyone, I'm new to this board, but I've been keeping up with the topic started by Chiefofsinrs. First of all, I just want to say that I used to be in Chief's shoes (I grew up in a Reformed Church and was a devout 5-point Calvinist throughout high school and my first 3 years of college, and have only just recently "seen the light" and converted to Open Theism - and I was quite a reluctant convert at that! So for those of you OVers that occasionally feel like pulling your hair out over guys like Chief and Spen, don't worry! There's still hope for them! 
Welcome Aaron, Thanks for the encouraging note, I will keep hope alive. 
Peace and Blessings. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/18/2004 5:27 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Romans 9
11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Did you miss that not yet born part?
I'm surprised that someone would even touch on Romans 9 to support anything but a Reformed position. I try to refrain from using that chapter to defend anything I believe because: 1) they are typically overused by Reformed people; 2) they are taken to absurd contexts by everyone else (that I have seen); and 3) there is much more Scripture to support the Doctrines of Grace besides just the "key texts." | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/18/2004 6:01 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/18/2004 6:46 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Spark,
What persuaded you to believe in Open Theism? Quite a switch from Calvinism?
God Bless!
Jo-Anne 
Hello Jo-Anne,
It was like pulling teeth, I fought, kicked, scratched, bit and pulled hair. I spit, cursed  , lied and cheated. No, just kidding  , I never had a field of tulips. 
I grew up as a Catholic, at least when I was taken to church. I never really thought about OV much until a year ago when I read "Is God to Blame?". It was only logical for me, I thought "well of course, what else would anybody think". Wow was I naive, I now feel sad for those with a deterministic mindset, it is actually a scary thought. I think if St. Augustine wound have had the book "God of the Possible" or just the idea of God being so omniscient that he knows all possibilities, well the rest would have been history.
Blessings
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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/19/2004 1:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Chiefofsinrs,
You said:
quote:
Those who live in the Matrix assume that they are in full control of what is going on, but in reality they are not. Only when they find out the Truth do they fight against it. If they never knew the Truth, they would go on living their lives as if their "reality" was absolutely real. Some are given more insight than others -- the Truth. Some are not. Either those who know the Truth can accept and embrace it, or they can try to dethrone that which is in control (And, yes, you can only take my Matrix analogy so far).
So, if I and you are ultimately, in the extremely wide angle of things (God's mysterious purpose), puppets, then so be it.
Well seeing as I'm neither a Buddhist nor do I buy into the Gnostic thinking underlying the philosophy of the Matrix movies, I don't find this kind of response very convincing. Since abandoning Calvinist theology and embracing the Open View, I've come to realize that, while certainly we can and should stand in awe of God's infinite wisdom and knowledge, and marvel at His plans and strategies which display His abounding LOVE and MERCY, His CHARACTER is NOT shrouded in mystery - it has been fully revealed to us in Christ. God is no ruthless and arbitrary tyrant, but is an infinitely wise, loving and intelligent Person whose goal is to show mercy to and redeem as many people and situations as possible, and who invites all people into a love relationship with Him, so that we might find satisfaction in Him alone.
Isaiah 55
1 "Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you--
The sure mercies of David.
4Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.
5Surely you shall call a nation you do not know,
And nations who do not know you shall run to you,
Because of the LORD your God,
And the Holy One of Israel;
For He has glorified you."
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
And God has not been proven wrong!
To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
Aaron
P.S. Wasn't Neo given the CHOICE to leave the Matrix when Morpheus presented him with the two tablets in the first film?  | | Back to Top | | |
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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/19/2004 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote:
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Romans 9
11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
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Did you miss that not yet born part?
No, I didn't miss the "not yet born part." I was just trying to show that the Bible tells us that from the womb through childhood, humans are totally innocent. And "innocence" means you haven't sinned. And if you haven't sinned, you aren't a sinner. And if you're not a sinner, you don't have a "sin nature." It's as simple as that.
quote:
I'm surprised that someone would even touch on Romans 9 to support anything but a Reformed position.
While Romans 9 has been taken as THE "reformed" prooftext passage since Augustine, not all Christians (such as the early Church before Augustine) see it as such. While I once blindly accepted the interpretation set forth by the likes of those such as Augustine and Calvin, I no longer see Paul teaching anything remotely close to what the Reformed position says he does. To read it as some kind of reformed treatise on the doctrine of "unconditional election to salvation" - that some are unconditionally elected to salvation while the rest are reprobated to eternal damnation - is to miss the whole point of the chapter and completely ignore the larger context of chapters 9-11.
I regret that I do not have the time nor the energy to go through and give a verse-by-verse exposition of the entire chapters 9-11 for you to make my point. There are some great commentaries out there from a non-reformed, Arminian/OV perspective on these chapters written by Christians much more, intelligent, competent and gifted than I am (and I'm sure it has been covered at least once on this board somewhere - and if not maybe someone can start a new thread on it) which I would encourage you to look into, unless you're already decided that any interpretation other than your own is one taken to "absurd contexts."
I will say, however, that the verse I quoted (concerning the election of Jacob and Esau) have NOTHING to do with the eternal destinies of these two men (or eternal destinies, period). God was referring to the two nations which sprang from the two men. It was an election to the historical functions of those concerned and their relations to the development of God's redemptive strategy (God's plan to bring forth the Messiah from a specific lineage so that the entire world through Him would be blessed). God said "Two NATIONS are in your womb...And the elder shall serve the younger." Now, Esau the individual never did "serve" Jacob. In fact, we are told that Jacob actually served Esau during his lifetime! He bowed himself down to the ground before Esau, addressing him as "my Lord" and calling himself Esau's servant. Jacob begged Esau to accept his gifts for it says Esau's face seemed like the face of God to him!
No, Paul here is talking about NATIONS, not individuals. The NATION of EDOM "served" the NATION of ISRAEL. Furthermore, we have no reason to believe that Esau was eternally reprobated while Jacob was elected to eternal salvation. It does not say this, and there is no reason to assume it. And since Paul is speaking of the two nations, and not the individuals, we certainly have no reason to believe the entire nation of Edom was unconditionally damned to hell, while the entire nation of Israel was unconditionally eternally saved! No, it was an election of SERVICE - an election of higher privilege (remember what I said about Jesus choosing his disciples? Theirs was an election to PRIVILEGED SERVICE as well - Judas included), since Jacob would give rise to the nation of Israel from which the Messiah would come. In God's redemptive strategy, he simply chose Jacob (Israel) for this status, and rejected Esau (Edom).
Do you really think this kind of interpretation is taken to "absurd contexts?" How do you view this particular passage? 
quote:
there is much more Scripture to support the Doctrines of Grace besides just the "key texts."
The Biblical "doctrine of grace" is that God has chosen to save those who put their faith in Christ, instead of those who, through external obediance to the law, seek to merit salvation on their own, apart from trusting in Christ's provision on the cross to give them rightstanding before God. Salvation by grace is not unconditional. It is condtioned on our choice to put faith in Christ. The very fact that salvation/election is based on our faith and not our works is God's grace. Faith - which is a result of a choice WE make - ESTABLISHES grace - it is what makes grace, grace.
Romans 4:16-17
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all...in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did...
Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, having been counted righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
1 Peter 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
If, however, by "Doctrines of Grace" you mean THE UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION of individuals to salvation (and the reprobation of everyone else), then could you please share just a few examples, since there is "much more Scripture" to support it? Thanks.
In Christ,
Aaron | | Back to Top | | |
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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/19/2004 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Are you saying that "two nations" were in her womb?
Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/19/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Reynolds
quote:
Are you saying that "two nations" were in her womb?
Genesis 25:23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger."
Would also say, that even though God chose the nation of Israel as the vessel through which the Messiah came, that individuals could choose to be out of the covenant, like Aachan did?
And individuals could choose to be included in the covenant, like Rahab, the Canaanite, did?
So under the old covenant, God elected a group (Abraham's descendants) before the individuals existed, and then individuals could join or quit the group. (Aachan quit, Rahab joined, the builders rejected the cornerstone)
And under the new covenant, God elected a group (those who are "in Christ") before the individuals existed, and then individuals can join or quit the group.
Makes sense to me AND is 100% scriptural.
"Elect in the Son"
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Aaron Reynolds
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 16
| Posted 4/19/2004 8:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
Right on, I agree with you totally. We aren't "in Christ" because we're elect (how arrogant is that?), we're elect because we're "in Christ" and HE is the Elect and Chosen One! Our election is in Him alone - apart from our choosing to identify ourselves with Him, we have no election at all. And as you pointed out, the situation was the same in the Old Testament as well, with people choosing to identify themselves with Israel, and thus being included in God's Covenant with Israel as a corporate body.
Man, I'm really starting to feel at home here!
Aaron | | Back to Top | | |
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