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chiefofsinrs
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/14/2004 10:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | Does anyone know if anything has been published on how to shepherd children under the open view?
If my 3-year old son does something that I have told him not to, would I just tell him I love him and let him go on his way? Or, if he is running into oncoming traffic, should I override his will and save him, or just let him ultimately decide his own fate? Is that kind of power (as a father) "evil"? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/14/2004 10:32 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiefofsinrs
Does anyone know if anything has been published on how to shepherd children under the open view?
If my 3-year old son does something that I have told him not to, would I just tell him I love him and let him go on his way? Or, if he is running into oncoming traffic, should I override his will and save him, or just let him ultimately decide his own fate? Is that kind of power (as a father) "evil"?
What do YOU think?
I can see how a fatalist might take the absurd and immoral approach you describe.
But seriously...
The libertarian free will that Open Theism (and Arminianism) teaches does not require us to take a lawless or fatalistic approach to life, not in the least. What libertarian free will posits is simply total moral responsibility for moral actions. The term, "moral" indicates a moral LAW, which is the measure of morality and moral accountability.
Related to this issue of moral choice and moral law is the clear implication that those too young or too undeveloped (or in some cases too stupid) to make good moral choices ought to be PERSUADED (and in some cases, like criminals, coerced) to do the right thing, and that parents have a HUGE responsibility to train up their children in the way that they should live.
Again, libertarian free will underscores and emphasizes responsibility; it does not lessen it by any means. So when we say our children have free will we assume that the parents bear the majority of the burden of responsibility when it comes to childrearing.
The Open View is no different than Arminianism (and even Calvinism, practically speaking) with respect to how one should raise their kids. ("Should" is a "moral obligation" word).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Wahoo
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/14/2004 2:35 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm not a parent.
But, in the Open View, I think that God is more "open" to the interaction of His children. I think you should let your kids disagree with you. You lay down the law but if they think your rules are stupid, and they've got a point, then change your mind. And let them know that you will reason with them. When they are teens and they have "grown up" issues, you wont be too threatening for them to open up to.
Jus my two centavos!
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/14/2004 5:37 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Well I've been a zero point Calvinist for over twenty years now and have a 17 year old daughter and an eleven year old daughter. They are obedient, wonderful lasses AND they aren't dead yet.
That's awesome, but is that boasting or are you subtly giving God the glory for that?
quote:
We started out exercising more control over them that lessened as they matured and we gave them more freedom so they can become mature adults, able to make their own decisions. Just like I imagine God does with those of us who aren't robots.
You didn't really answer my questions. Is a father unloving who does more than just say he loves his child and actively pursues and brings security to his child (which, to me, is the foundation of trust)?
So, what do Jesus' statements in John 10 have to do with this? Should we, as parents, not treat our children the same way? Or, should we tell them, "You are only my child as long as you meet my standard. If you screw up, I will disown you."? Is an infant in his father's arms being held or holding on -- who is in control?
quote:
So I guess your straw man just fell over.
I'm a lot more used to Calvinists being arrogant than others. I would assume that since the focus of Open Theism is on God's love, then His people would act more loving...
I'm honestly just trying to see how this works out practically. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/14/2004 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | What do YOU think?
quote:
I can see how a fatalist might take the absurd and immoral approach you describe.
Actually, I was describing the Open View. I was trying to point out that in that view God simply tells the world, "I love you," but does nothing to bring about their salvation and security. He takes no personal interest in individuals, and accomplishes nothing for anyone. He is loving, but if my love for my wife were only sentimental, and I never actually did anything, would she really trust my love for her?
But, of course, I am assuming that all people deserve God's judgment (which is why grace is necessary).
quote:
What libertarian free will posits is simply total moral responsibility for moral actions. The term, "moral" indicates a moral LAW, which is the measure of morality and moral accountability.
I agree that humans are morally responsible for their actions, but what exactly did Christ accomplish on the Cross? Was he only a role model who demonstrated the way toward moral excellence?
quote:
Related to this issue of moral choice and moral law is the clear implication that those too young or too undeveloped (or in some cases too stupid) to make good moral choices ought to be PERSUADED (and in some cases, like criminals, coerced) to do the right thing, and that parents have a HUGE responsibility to train up their children in the way that they should live.
Are sheep highly intelligent animals? If we are compared to sheep, then we are in that same position (undeveloped and stupid). If we are to act accordingly toward our children (persuasion or coercion), why should a loving God act any different toward His children?
quote:
Again, libertarian free will underscores and emphasizes responsibility; it does not lessen it by any means. So when we say our children have free will we assume that the parents bear the majority of the burden of responsibility when it comes to childrearing.
When is the point that the parents are no longer "responsible" and the child is determines his own fate, from Scripture? | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/14/2004 6:35 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiefofsinrs
Actually, I was describing the Open View.
Actually you weren't. You were describing a straw man of your own creation. What you are describing is more akin to Deism or Process Theism than Open Theism properly understood.
quote:
I was trying to point out that in that view God simply tells the world, "I love you," but does nothing to bring about their salvation and security. He takes no personal interest in individuals, and accomplishes nothing for anyone.
Where do you get this idea? No Open Theist I have ever studied (and I've studied most all of the books on Open Theism by Open Theists) has ever said that God "does nothing to bring about their salvation and security," or that "He takes no personal interest in individuals, and accomplishes nothing for anyone." Where did you get these ridiculous ideas?
quote:
But, of course, I am assuming that all people deserve God's judgment (which is why grace is necessary).
Actually, all sinners deserve God's judgment. When OT writer have you come across that denies this?
quote:
I agree that humans are morally responsible for their actions, but what exactly did Christ accomplish on the Cross? Was he only a role model who demonstrated the way toward moral excellence?
There is no one specific theory of the atonement in Open Theism, but with respect to soteriology, OVTheism is identical to classical Arminianism. Specifically, the Open View is not consistent with the Moral Influence view of the atonement, which it sounds like you are describing. Also, the Open View would be difficult to reconcile with the penal substitution view common in Calvinism. In my opinion, the Moral Government/Grotian view of the atonement is the most consistent with Open Theism, but again, Openness scholars have not really discussed this issue much in their writings. (Other things have preoccupied them thus far). I do know that Greg Boyd affirms the Christus Victor view of the atonement (Hence the name of this website).
quote:
Are sheep highly intelligent animals? If we are compared to sheep, then we are in that same position (undeveloped and stupid).
Sheep is a metaphor. Unless you are one very talented sheep who knows how to read, write, and type, it is obviously NOT the case that you are in fact of the sheep species.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/15/2004 1:30 AM (GMT -6) | | chiefofsinrs, here's how I see your argument:
Because the Open View believes God has given us freedom, we, as parents, should give our very young children freedom as well, freedom to run in the street and get killed.
So then, according to this simplistic argument, the Calvinistic parents should NEVER give their children any freedom, ever. They should micro-manage their lives, even into adulthood.
I told you how we raise our girls, when they're young, we exercise much control which we lessen as they get older because we want them to grow into mature adults, able to make their own decisions.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/15/2004 1:41 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiefofsinrs
Actually, I was describing the Open View. I was trying to point out that in that view God simply tells the world, "I love you," but does nothing to bring about their salvation and security.
No you weren't. God sent His Son to die for us, that's what He did to bring about our salvation.
quote:
He takes no personal interest in individuals, and accomplishes nothing for anyone. He is loving, but if my love for my wife were only sentimental, and I never actually did anything, would she really trust my love for her?
So God, unilaterally forcing people into the kingdom, whether it's their will or not, is more loving than God letting people choose for themselves?
Is that how your relationship is with your wife? Or is she in the relationship via her choice?
Here's how it works for us:
My wife chose to be in relationship with me
I chose to be in relationship with my wife
My wife chose to be in relationship with God, via the gift of Christ's work
I chose to be in relationship with God, via the gift of Christ's work
Is yours different?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/15/2004 5:50 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
God sent His Son to die for us, that's what He did to bring about our salvation.
But, whose individual salvation did He actually accomplish? The Scripture says that He came to save sinners. Which specific sinners are saved? I know that the Scripture says "those who believe" will be saved, but how do we reconcile the verses that refer to specific people, not everyone? It seems to me when Christ said it was finished, that it was -- that the salvation of His Church (His sheep, His people) was finished.
quote:
So God, unilaterally forcing people into the kingdom, whether it's their will or not, is more loving than God letting people choose for themselves?
That's why I was trying to point out that God's justice would bring about the condemnation of all people, that no one deserves to be saved. So, in using my analogy, I was in essence saying that God treats His people the same as I would my child who is running into oncoming traffic. I wouldn't just tell my child I love him and not save him. I would consider that to be loving. I would actually save him.
The issue, I believe, comes in when you look at those who are not saved, because, ultimately they are not saved because God did not save them. That's why I believe, for instance, in John chapter 8, Jesus tells the Jews they do not "hear" Him because they are not "of God." Or, in chapter 10, He says that they didn't believe because they weren't a part of his flock, that they weren't His sheep. Our finite minds cannot rationalize these seemingly contradictory statements, so we go to one extreme or another. Maybe both extremes are wrong.
I don't love other people's kids in the same way that I love my own. But, that doesn't mean I don't love them.
quote:
Is that how your relationship is with your wife? Or is she in the relationship via her choice?
I am not denying real choices in the here-and-now, the narrow lens of things. We are not on God's level. The secret things belong to the Lord. But, I believe, from Scripture, that if any of our moral choices are the ultimate point of focus, then we do have a reason to boast about them.
And, actually, I would say that God chose her for me, and I for her. If it were up to us making all the right choices, we would've ended it long ago. That's grace (John 15:5). Without it we would be without hope.
quote:
My wife chose to be in relationship with God, via the gift of Christ's work I chose to be in relationship with God, via the gift of Christ's work
I saw a sign on a church the other day that said, "Salvation is a gift, but you have to accept it." That honestly made me angry (hopefully the righteous kind of anger). When I give my kids a gift, I don't tell them, "you have to accept it." They want it. Their acceptance is real. But, the focus isn't on their receiving of the gift -- it's on my giving. The focus shouldn't be on our acceptance of God's gift, but the fact that God is gracious. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/15/2004 5:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Sheep is a metaphor. Unless you are one very talented sheep who knows how to read, write, and type, it is obviously NOT the case that you are in fact of the sheep species.
So, humans being called sheep is a compliment? | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/15/2004 7:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiefofsinrs
But, whose individual salvation did He actually accomplish? The Scripture says that He came to save sinners. Which specific sinners are saved? I know that the Scripture says "those who believe" will be saved
Yep, the "whosoever", those "who believe", those "who accept". It's available all but not accepted by all.
quote:
So, in using my analogy, I was in essence saying that God treats His people the same as I would my child who is running into oncoming traffic. I wouldn't just tell my child I love him and not save him. I would consider that to be loving. I would actually save him.
God wants people to choose to love Him and obey Him. Do you get the same gratification from your wife choosing to love you, as you would if she were a robot programmed to love you? I think not.
quote:
The issue, I believe, comes in when you look at those who are not saved, because, ultimately they are not saved because God did not save them.
No, they rejected Him. Look reject up in scripture, it's everywhere. The builders rejected the cornerstone, My people have rejected me, the Jews rejected their Messiah. John 3:16 says God loved the whole world.
quote:
That's why I believe, for instance, in John chapter 8, Jesus tells the Jews they do not "hear" Him because they are not "of God." Or, in chapter 10, He says that they didn't believe because they weren't a part of his flock, that they weren't His sheep. Our finite minds cannot rationalize these seemingly contradictory statements, so we go to one extreme or another.
My finite mind rejects contradictory statements. In fact that's why I believe in the open view concept of God, NO contradictions, NO "mysteries" and "secret wills" and crap like that.
quote:
I am not denying real choices in the here-and-now, the narrow lens of things. We are not on God's level. The secret things belong to the Lord. But, I believe, from Scripture, that if any of our moral choices are the ultimate point of focus, then we do have a reason to boast about them.
Who's boasting about making a moral choice? It's a requirement from God, to choose good and reject evil. If I obey a requirement, it's not a boast.
quote:
I saw a sign on a church the other day that said, "Salvation is a gift, but you have to accept it." That honestly made me angry (hopefully the righteous kind of anger). When I give my kids a gift, I don't tell them, "you have to accept it." They want it.
So they don't take the gift? They just sit there looking at it, don't reach out to take it? Because by taking the gift in their hand they're claiming credit for having obtained the gift?
When you proposed to your wife, did she have the chance to "accept" or "reject" the offer? She did? Then why don't we have the opportunity to accept or reject the offer from God?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/15/2004 10:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It's available all but not accepted by all.
Exactly. The gospel goes out to "all the nations."
quote:
God wants people to choose to love Him and obey Him.
A "carnal mind" that is hostile to God becomes non-hostile by what? Or, a "natural man" that cannot please God, or submit to His law, does so how?
quote:
Do you get the same gratification from your wife choosing to love you, as you would if she were a robot programmed to love you? I think not.
Is an actor in a play less "human," or are his actions less "real," because he is ultimately participating in another's work? I think Shakespeare was right.
quote:
No, they rejected Him. Look reject up in scripture, it's everywhere. The builders rejected the cornerstone, My people have rejected me, the Jews rejected their Messiah. John 3:16 says God loved the whole world.
Yes, and there are just as many passages that say that God was ultimately behind their rejection.
1 Peter 2:7-8 -- So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
Interesting that Peter would quote that and then his final statement would be seemingly "fatalistic." They were destined by who? I guess in the "warfare worldview" that would have to be Satan.
And, John 3:16 does not say "whole." But, it does say God loved the "world" -- that which is in opposition to Him. We are all a part of that by nature (and with struggle with the world until we meet Christ).
quote:
My finite mind rejects contradictory statements. In fact that's why I believe in the open view concept of God, NO contradictions, NO "mysteries" and "secret wills" and crap like that.
In your mind, where do these passages fit? What do they mean? How would you explain things that don't make sense to you? Or, do you have a monopoly on Bible interpretation which makes you the authority, not the Bible? If there's zero room for mystery, then God is on our level, and we will spend eternity teaching Him.
quote:
Who's boasting about making a moral choice? It's a requirement from God, to choose good and reject evil. If I obey a requirement, it's not a boast.
But, according to Jesus and Paul (and others), you don't have the ability to make the right choice (John 15:5, Romans 3). Boasting is giving yourself credit for anything. But, are we not to boast in the Lord alone? If you actually, ultimately, "did something" you have reason to boast. That doesn't really give God the glory, does it?
quote:
So they don't take the gift? They just sit there looking at it, don't reach out to take it? Because by taking the gift in their hand they're claiming credit for having obtained the gift?
Accepting and responding to a gift, while giving all credit to the Giver, is not boasting. If the emphasis is on the response, not the initiation, then that's backwards.
quote:
When you proposed to your wife, did she have the chance to "accept" or "reject" the offer? She did? Then why don't we have the opportunity to accept or reject the offer from God?
I believe she made a real choice in the matter, but there was an underlying purpose behind it, bigger than just her choosing.
Was it ultimately Paul's "choice" to be an apostle when he was blinded by Christ himself? Were the disciples out looking for Jesus (Rom. 3:11), or did Jesus seek them out (John 15:6)? | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Is this a discussion on semantics or are you guys going to talk about parenting children?
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Is this a discussion on semantics or are you guys going to talk about parenting children?
I posted this topic to understand how an Open Theist would connect a parent's relation to their children with how they view God. | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
God sent His Son to die for us
If Jesus completely submitted His own, human, will to His Father's, was there not a bit of mystery in there, considering Jesus was also fully God? In the wide view of things, ultimately, the Father was in complete control, and if he weren't, then Jesus would not have done what He did (since the majority of Christ's life was fulfilling prophecies). Did God not use the human natures of Christ to demonstrate submission? Or, was it ultimately Christ's (the man) "choice" that was the determining factor of His own life, death, and Resurrection? If it were God the Father, not God incarnate, does that make Christ's decisions and submission any less "real"? | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:25 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm glad i'm not your kid.
Hey man. Real theology works itself out in real life. Are we talking about real life here, or are we having a logic contest.
Wahoo | | Back to Top | | |
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I'm glad i'm not your kid.
I wonder how often my kids wish they weren't...
quote:
Hey man. Real theology works itself out in real life. Are we talking about real life here, or are we having a logic contest.
I agree, and yes. If I am a loving father, in my view, I will give my life for my children. I will protect them and make sure they feel secure. I will never leave them, no matter what they do. That kind of love, by God's grace, will cause them to respond in love. And, their response will be real. But, I don't love anyone else's kids the same way I love my own. Just like I don't love you like I love my wife.
That's how I see God. And, I'm glad I can trust Him, that He will not fail, even when I do, that He will never leave me, although I reject Him every day, that He knows what tomorrow brings so I need not worry about it -- He's got it all under control. I don't know that I could trust a God that provides a "way out" from a war for everyone, but does nothing for me specifically. I don't know that I could trust a God who doesn't know what tomorrow brings, a God who may actually lose the war in the end. Only God knows (or maybe he doesn't?)... | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/15/2004 11:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Chief: as John pointed out, if you are going to post questions about open theism and post statements about it, you may want to learn what open theists actually believe. Much of what you state is simply inacturate.
Actors in a play are real, but the characters in the play that they play are not. AS such, your analogy does not work. The characters must do what the author makes them do. Is that what you are saying we are...because it does not look well for your theology. In your theology, it sounds as if you are saying we are unreal, God maniqulated characters that have no connection with a real life.
BTW, given your misconceptions about open theism, could you please (for the record) state which books BY open theists you have actually read and where you got these ideas. Thanks...
BTW2, the fact that you assume that open theism postulates that God doesn't know the future also shows how little you know about open theists. Open theists, by and large, believe God knows all that there is to know, knows all of the future, some of it as certain and some of it as possibilities. Simply because open theists do not view God's knowledge as you do doesn't give you the right to misstate it. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/15/2004 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiefofsinrs
quote:
It's available all but not accepted by all.
Exactly. The gospel goes out to "all the nations."
Yep, we're to make it available to all nations and let each person choose.
quote:
quote:
God wants people to choose to love Him and obey Him.
A "carnal mind" that is hostile to God becomes non-hostile by what? Or, a "natural man" that cannot please God, or submit to His law, does so how?
How?
Mark 4:20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.
Mark 9:7 And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!"
Luke 8:21 But He [Jesus] answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
Acts 18:8 ...And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.
Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
How? By hearing the word of God and volitionally acting on it.
quote:
Is an actor in a play less "human," or are his actions less "real," because he is ultimately participating in another's work? I think Shakespeare was right.
His actions are "real" but his choices are fake because they're in a script.
quote:
Yes, and there are just as many passages that say that God was ultimately behind their rejection.
Where?
quote:
1 Peter 2:7-8 -- So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
1 Peter 2:
6 For this is contained in Scripture:
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
Look at all the red volitional statements. Then, those who volitionally reject the Christ, get the doom appointed for those who reject the Christ.
quote:
If there's zero room for mystery, then God is on our level, and we will spend eternity teaching Him.
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Ephesians 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
If we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father, there are no hidden purposes, double wills or any of that crap that contradict how Jesus portrayed the Father.
Also, if I advance an argument and your rebuttal is "it's a mystery", you've lost the argument.
quote:
But, according to Jesus and Paul (and others), you don't have the ability to make the right choice (John 15:5)
John 15:5 starts out with a command "Abide in me"!!! LOL
And if God commands it, I have the ability to do it.
quote:
If you actually, ultimately, "did something" you have reason to boast. That doesn't really give God the glory, does it?
Like your kids bragging about how they reached out and grasped that gift from you???
Or are they still sitting there looking at it, afraid to boastfully pick the gift up?
quote:
I believe she made a real choice in the matter, but there was an underlying purpose behind it, bigger than just her choosing.
It was still her choice, you didn't force yourself on her. I hope.
quote:
Was it ultimately Paul's "choice" to be an apostle when he was blinded by Christ himself? Were the disciples out looking for Jesus (Rom. 3:11), or did Jesus seek them out (John 15:6)?
So Paul didn't respond? The disciples didn't follow? They didn't have to volitionally put one foot in front of the other in order to follow Jesus? Or did Jesus possess their bodies?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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chiefofsinrs
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 29
| Posted 4/16/2004 8:08 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Mark 4:20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.
Interestingly, previously Jesus had explained something minutely important...
Mark 4:11-12 -- And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that 'they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.'"
Why did Jesus say that? Why would he hide certain things from certain people? He even thanks the Father for hiding things from people (Luke 10:21), and then, in the next verse, says something that doesn't really make sense -- "no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." But, how could God hold people accountable for things they were prevented from understanding (by God)?
quote:
Luke 8:21 But He [Jesus] answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
I honesly don't know where Open Theists stand in regards to justification or sanctification. To me, it's clear from multiple passages of Scripture that no one completely obeys God's Word.
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How? By hearing the word of God and volitionally acting on it.
But, you didn't explain any of the verses I brought up. Obviously, they are all true. But, what brings about the desire to act on God's word, since by his nature he is incapable of doing so?
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His actions are "real" but his choices are fake because they're in a script.
I personally see participation in God's work (Philippians 2:12-13, John 6:29) as more important than actualizing my own potential.
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Yes, and there are just as many passages that say that God was ultimately behind their rejection.
Where?
I have already quoted several that have not been addressed.
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Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
I think it's interesting that you quote a verse which is referring to specific people that have been spoken to, basically saying that Jesus has spoken to people and they have not understood because they have not been "given" the ability to.
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Also, if I advance an argument and your rebuttal is "it's a mystery", you've lost the argument.
So, you know everything? A mystery is something that cannot be known.
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John 15:5 starts out with a command "Abide in me"!!! LOL And if God commands it, I have the ability to do it.
He says that apart from Him, we can do nothing -- we bear no fruit.
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If you actually, ultimately, "did something" you have reason to boast. That doesn't really give God the glory, does it?
Like your kids bragging about how they reached out and grasped that gift from you???
Or are they still sitting there looking at it, afraid to boastfully pick the gift up?
I am not saying they don't receive the gift, but the focus isn't on the receiver -- it's on the giver. The Giver is the initiator. We are commanded to respond. If our response is a "no" then we are simply acting according to that which we naturally desire, and will receive the punishment that we already deserve.
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It was still her choice, you didn't force yourself on her. I hope.
I am not saying that I forced her to make the decision, but that God had a higher purpose than we can even imagine.
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So Paul didn't respond?
Was Paul looking for Jesus, or was he simply walking down the road? Was he not having Christians killed? What exactly caused him to change his mind?
Acts 9:15-16 -- "...For he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name."
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The disciples didn't follow? They didn't have to volitionally put one foot in front of the other in order to follow Jesus? Or did Jesus possess their bodies?
John 15:16 -- "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..."
Why would Jesus even compare His choosing to theirs? Obviously, they responded, but why? | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/17/2004 6:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by chiefofsinrs
Mark 4:11-12 -- And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that 'they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.'"
Why did Jesus say that? Why would he hide certain things from certain people?
Who was Jesus' audience His whole life?
The Jews, the people of the promise, the people waiting for their Messiah.
Yet, when their Messiah arrived:
1 Peter 2:
6 For this is contained in Scripture:
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
volitional
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, volitional
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, volitional
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient volitional to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
So, the Jews, who volitionally rejected their Messiah, will
"Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand."
That's why He's speaking to them in parables.
The thing about parables is if you want to understand them, you can. "If you seek Me, you will find Me" is a promise of God's. So those who heard the parable and really were seeking God, could dig the meaning out. But those not seeking God, wouldn't bother.
As for justification, I can't do it by myself BUT, God isn't going to force it on me either. If I assent, He will come along and give the power to do it.
Explain the parable of Jesus standing at the door and knocking, to me.
Why is Jesus knocking at the door?
Why is He waiting? What is He waiting for?
Who opens the door?
Why does He say, "if any man...."?
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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