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Neo Matrix
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 4/3/2004 11:46 AM (GMT -6) |   | Genesis 18:20And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
I understand that free will agents thoughts are not forknown to God. However this had been gong on fore some time and God had to go and see if the outcry was as great as he heard any thoughts on this?
if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 4/3/2004 12:17 PM (GMT -6) | | This has been discussed ad nauseum on this Board. A search applying key words: genesis, Sodom, etc. should bring up these threads which should answer your concerned. I recall we have beat the dead horse to death on several occassions. When you find thread maybe you could post to it and reopen it.
TGB any idea what the link(s) is?
Blessings,
John | | Back to Top | | |
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 4/3/2004 12:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Here is the link (with links to other links).
Enjoy.
http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1271&SearchTerms=,Sodom
John | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 4/4/2004 3:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Your questions are interesting, spenlake, but just for the record, they have nothing to do with open theism per say. I think NeoMatrix's question had to do with two seemingly contradictory claims: 1) God is omniscienct (which AT LEAST means God infallibly knows all present tense realities), and 2) God's "going down to see whether..." calls into question God's knowledge of existing reality (viz., whether or not the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah concorded with the report that had reached his ears). If God has to check the situtaion out personally to know what the truth IS, then it becomes difficult to claim God's knowledge of reality is infallible, immediate, and exhaustive (which open theists claim it is).
Neo Matrix, check the Genesis passage in the "The Open Letter" here: http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/Custom/4/Documents/beltstudies.htm
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 4/23/2004 2:24 PM (GMT -6) | |
Neo,
The Open Letter, that TGB graciously provided the link to, says:
quote:
Therefore, what God goes down “to know” is as yet an undetermined aspect of reality, namely, what their response will be. That is, their increasing sinfulness yields both certainties and possibilities. They’re certainly deserving of judgment and are certainly cementing in their options, but the possibility remains that they may yet avoid judgment. To resolve this potential for judgment or mercy God arranges a head to head meeting.
If you compare that to Christ's claim that Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented had they seen Christ's miraculous signs, it takes on interesting implications. It seems God KNEW they would have repented with a certain level of signs, but he did NOT know if they would repent with the angelic visit to the city.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/23/2004 2:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Tom says:
quote:
Therefore, what God goes down “to know” is as yet an undetermined aspect of reality, namely, what their response will be. That is, their increasing sinfulness yields both certainties and possibilities. They’re certainly deserving of judgment and are certainly cementing in their options, but the possibility remains that they may yet avoid judgment. To resolve this potential for judgment or mercy God arranges a head to head meeting.
Interesting angle; I would certainly prefer this view if in fact it were borne out by the passage itself; however, I'm afraid the text itself directly contradicts such an interpretation:
Genesis 18:20And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
In my opinion, this is one of those that we simply have to say is meant metaphorically, not literally. I seem to recall Dr. Sanders saying that this verse does not make sense unless it is seen as anthropomorphic (metaphoric) speech. I have to agree. That doesn't abrogate the other texts that do seem to support presentism, however.
My 2c
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/23/2004 3:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
John,
The english translation would surely contradict it as you say. I was giving the author of the "Open Letter" article the benefit of the doubt in his Hebrew translation:
quote:
We then have the puzzling announcement by God in v. 21: "I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry which has come to me.” (RSV) If taken literally how are we to avoid attributing to God ignorance of the spiritual state of Sodom and Gomorrah? Apparently God believes his knowledge of the existing situation may be incorrect and he wants to see for himself. Is this the only option we have if we wish to take the passage literally? I suggest not.
Setting aside the more technical aspects of the Hebrew and Septuagint which figure into my understanding, let me just suggest that the Hebrew of v. 21 can quite faithfully be rendered, "I will go down to see whether or not their deeds have reached their fill as the outcry suggests." The Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) appears to confirm such an understanding with, “Whether according to their cry reaching me they are making an end for themselves.” Gen. 15.16 suggests a similar sort of thing, where God describes the iniquity of the Amorites as "not yet complete/full.” I submit that the increasing sinfulness of Sodom and Gomorrah’s citizens was reaching its “fill.” God had seen this before (Gen. 6) and knew that it was “now or never” for these people. Thus, the visit is first an act of mercy on God’s part. Interestingly, the Septuagint renders the end of v. 21 with a purpose clause, “so that I will know,” suggesting that the future of these cities is not yet a forgone conclusion.
Okay, but the issue still seems to remain--“Whether according to their cry reaching me they are making an end for themselves.”
God is going down to see whether the cry reaching Him is true or not. | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 4/23/2004 3:43 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Okay, but the issue still seems to remain--“Whether according to their cry reaching me they are making an end for themselves.”
God is going down to see whether the cry reaching Him is true or not.
John, I understand the author to be saying that God is going to determine, by the visit, if they will/can yet repent. The verse he quotes about the Amorites seems to suggest that there is a point of no return. He told the Israelites at one point that they could not repent any more than a leopard could change it's spots which further corroborates that idea.
Thus, the passage may, as the author argues, be suggesting that God was not totally sure that they would NOT repent. Christ, on the other hand, KNEW they would repent if miraculous signs had been done.
I'm not being dogmatic; but if his Hebrew translation is valid, it may by that the language in that passage is analogous to other "open" language in Genesis.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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