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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/8/2004 7:19 PM (GMT -6) |   | (John)As the Scriptures cited above make plain that murder comes from the heart of a person (that is, it is definitely not accidental or unavoidable or it is by definition not murder) I guess I don't see how having an abortion (by choice) is not willful murder.
(Jo-Anne) I do believe that murder can be not accidental or unavoidable in the case of abortion but still not have been a choice.
John
I'm having trouble understanding this sentence. Could you explain what you mean?
Jo-Anne
If something is coerced is it really a choice?
John
Certainly not.
(John) The desperation you speak of basically stems from selfish motives and a lack of trust in God (which virtually define sin--selfishness and unbelief).
(jo-Anne) John, do you know anyone who has had an abortion?
John Yes, but I fail to see how that makes any difference as to whether or not something is sin.
(John)A very big problem I have with your position is that it would by definition justify virtually any amount of murder if one's "heart was not hard" (whatever that means). On Judgment Day, who will be on safe ground, those who murder innocent children or those who obey God's word and do not?
(Jo-Anne) Those who have received the price that Jesus paid at Calvary for their sin.
John
Both categories in my above scenario claim to be Christians, and claim "the price Jesus paid at Calvary for their sin." But what does the Bible say about those who make grace into a license to sin? (See below) What does the Bible say about Judgment Day for those who do in fact sin constantly and then say they are "covered" by grace, all the while they are committed high treason against God and his holy Law?
Jo-AnneI believe that you can be a Christian, have an abortion, repent and be "on safe ground." Salvation is not, however, an excuse to sin.
John The problem is, that many take the approach of "Well, I'll just repent later," instead of doing what is right.
A hardened heart is one that is not obedient to Christ. To be sure, there are varying degrees of hardness, with the ultimate hardness being the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is by definition unpardonable.
As to the issue of grace vs. law, I am unaware of any passages in Scripture that say anything even close to the idea so common among evangelicals today, that one's lifestyle doesn't matter so long as one "trust in Christ to forgive."
To the contrary, I find Scripture virtually replete with exhortations to righteous and holy living for all who would inherit eternal life:
Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom. 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Cor. 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Matt 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'
1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Matt. 13:40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Rev. 21:7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
John E
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/9/2004 7:32 PM (GMT -6) | |
(John)As the Scriptures cited above make plain that murder comes from the heart of a person (that is, it is definitely not accidental or unavoidable or it is by definition not murder) I guess I don't see how having an abortion (by choice) is not willful murder.
(Jo-Anne) I do believe that murder can be not accidental or unavoidable in the case of abortion but still not have been a choice.
John
I'm having trouble understanding this sentence. Could you explain what you mean?
(Jo-Anne) (laughing...it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me either when I reread it...sorry John!) Let me take another stab at it. Abortion is not accidental. It may not be unavoidable either. But there are times when abortion may not have been the girl's (or the woman's) choice - at least a choice that is made by a healthy person who understands what it is they are choosing? I may be digging myself into a deeper hole here. It makes sense to me but I realize it may not to you. I had an abortion when I was 17, before I was a Christian. I called my parents the day I found out. They had a friend come over with valium that night and the next day they were there to pick me up. I was emotionally a wreck and medicated to boot. That day they whisked me off to our doctor in our small town (back home) who promptly told me that yes, I was pregnant - but there was no baby...only fluid. Arrangements were made. No one asked me. The next day we drove all the way to Grand Forks, N.D. to an abortion clinic. The next morning my parents paid the money. I don't recall any explanation or being given any choice. I do recall the procedure - though it no longer gives me any pain to recall it. Was I culpable? Yes. I am also forgiven and even though I remember - the Father sees only righteousness in me when He looks at me. I was a murderer. Did I have a choice? Perhaps I did if I realized that I had one. But honestly...I wouldn't have spoken up perhaps even if someone had given me one. You would have to know what my home life was like. God has since used this to minister to girls/women who are thinking about abortion or have had one. I am speaking from experience. Yes it's murder but not the same as premeditated murder - at least not always. Only the Father knows each heart, each situation and His mercy is wider than we give Him credit for. I don't mind sharing this if it might help others. I am a new creation. I have also met some girls who have had an abortion when they were a Christian (I became one afterwards). They were a new creation when they got pregnant, when they entered the clinic and when they left. They were wounded. They had sinned but no one was waiting for them with stones in their hands...wonder why.
(jo-Anne) John, do you know anyone who has had an abortion?
John Yes, but I fail to see how that makes any difference as to whether or not something is sin.
(Jo-Anne) You're right John. It doesn't. But sometimes it makes a difference in our understanding.
John The problem is, that many take the approach of "Well, I'll just repent later," instead of doing what is right.
(Jo-Anne) Right again, but then that would be "an excuse to sin."
(Jo-Anne) We are exhorted to live in the N.T. out of our new nature...the fact that we are exhorted to live out of it shows that He knew that it would be a struggle. I do not believe struggle is sin. Giving in to that struggle is sin.
John, thanks for your patience in this dialogue. I'm glad to answer any questions that you may have and I sincerely appreciate your insights in this.
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/11/2004 12:06 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
That day they whisked me off to our doctor in our small town (back home) who promptly told me that yes, I was pregnant - but there was no baby...only fluid. Arrangements were made. No one asked me. The next day we drove all the way to Grand Forks, N.D. to an abortion clinic. The next morning my parents paid the money. I don't recall any explanation or being given any choice. I do recall the procedure - though it no longer gives me any pain to recall it. Was I culpable? Yes.
Hi Jo-Anne,
As far as I can tell, your actions in this scenario were not culpable, as:
1. You were heavily medicated and thus your cognitive and volitional capabilities were greatly hindered.
2. Your personal physician led you to believe there was no baby. (But if he spoke the truth, why would he say you were pregnant, I wonder? Could it be he was purposely misleading you? In any case, if so, you are not guilty for acting on false information given to you by someone who should have given you sound medical information and advice).
3. Your parents seem to me to be the primary actors in this scenario.
Anyway, that's how it seems to me. Not judging, just giving my estimation of what you have related. In the situation you describe, I would not hold the 17 year old as morally or legally responsible, though of course the emotional trauma of the whole incident would be very real, and it would be quite easy for someone in your situation to feel guilty, even though you seem to have had little control in the situation.
Also, about "throwing stones," sorry if you got the impression I was in favor of that. My main concern is that people not excuse sin, and not take the attitude which says, "I can repent later; I want what I want now." And again, in the story as you relate it, it does not seem that you acted with sinful motives or in fact that you acted as a free agent to any appreciable degree at all.
God bless,
John E
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/12/2004 7:09 AM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by John Earp
As far as I can tell, your actions in this scenario were not culpable, as:
(John) 1. You were heavily medicated and thus your cognitive and volitional capabilities were greatly hindered.
(Jo-Anne) I've never considered this before.
(John) 2. Your personal physician led you to believe there was no baby. (But if he spoke the truth, why would he say you were pregnant, I wonder? Could it be he was purposely misleading you? In any case, if so, you are not guilty for acting on false information given to you by someone who should have given you sound medical information and advice).
(Jo-Anne) This is something I've never considered before. This doctor either had a very different understanding of pregnancy or he was a liar. Pregnant at 8 weeks meant there was a baby. But for him to communicate that there was no baby, only fluid could have been a lie "for my sake." He was close friends with my mom/stepfather and he wanted to see the "problem solved" as quickly as possible. I wonder how many other young girls were shuffled through his office to that same clinic?
(John) 3. Your parents seem to me to be the primary actors in this scenario
(Jo-Anne) I believe it was an embarressment to them - not something they wanted there small town neighbours or farmers to know about. You're right. They played a major part in it.
(John) Anyway, that's how it seems to me. Not judging, just giving my estimation of what you have related. In the situation you describe, I would not hold the 17 year old as morally or legally responsible, though of course the emotional trauma of the whole incident would be very real, and it would be quite easy for someone in your situation to feel guilty, even though you seem to have had little control in the situation.
(Jo-Anne) Despite all the factors I've never considered that I was not morally or legally responsible. Thank you for pointing out some things here that no one has before. This is the perfect example (to me) of how someone can be involved in even murder but perhaps not be morally or legally responsible. However, I did see it that way. I sufffered terribly as a result but I discovered that someone else sufferered much more and that I could find healing in His suffering. There is no doubt that this is part of what sent me searching even harder for purpose in my life, a search that led me to the Saviour. Recently a young person that I minister made a conscious decision to do this. She is a Christian. What she did was a sin and I wish that I had known what she was thinking before hand. I'm glad I'm there for her now. She is a sincere believer but she was caught in a desperate situation and perhaps that is selfish. Anyway, in the midst of it I found myself (though forgiven) thinking of myself as a murderer. I haven't thought like that for a very long time (years). I started reading Greg Boyd's new book "Seeing is Believing" and it helped me to realize that we are who God says we are. I just needed a reminder. I am a new creation (and so much more). I will never refer to myself as a "murder" again - ever. The enemy is a relentless accuser. I guess he has nothing better to do. Have you read the book? I've just finished the first chapter.
(John) Also, about "throwing stones," sorry if you got the impression I was in favor of that. My main concern is that people not excuse sin, and not take the attitude which says, "I can repent later; I want what I want now." And again, in the story as you relate it, it does not seem that you acted with sinful motives or in fact that you acted as a free agent to any appreciable degree at all.
(Jo-Anne) John, I've never had the impression that you would be one of those standing ready, rock in hand. I don't believe that. I do wholeheartedly agree with you though, that if we excuse sin where an individual should be held spiritually, legally, morally responsible, that we cheapen the price that was paid. The "I can repent later; I want what I want now" heart attitude leads to spiritual death (if not physical in some cases). We all fall in to that from time to time but hopefully recognize it quickly and respond to God.
I am so thankful for His forgiveness, for His grace. As my friend said just yesterday when he gave the message at our church; "Sin does not have the final say." God does.
Thanks John once again for your insights, things I've never considered. They have been very helpful.
He is risen!
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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