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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/6/2004 5:55 PM (GMT -6) |   | Former Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork that Catholic theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis: "[Catholicism’s] disastrous theology had prepared the way for Hitler and his ‘final solution.’ [The Church published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree, not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus’s command, ‘love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."
It is not surprising, then, that Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He proclaimed essentially the same thing in a speech before the Reichstag in 1938.
Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of Forbidden Books.
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/hitler.htm
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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quest for truth
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 4/6/2004 10:17 PM (GMT -6) | | It goes to show you that we ALL have to be on guard against being deceived by the enemy. I believe the Pharisee's were deceived by the enemy through being fixated on the law. I believe today those who believe in predestination are being deceived by the enemy. The sad part in all this deception, and proven through Hitler, is that innocent people, God's precious people, are being hurt along the way through Satan's deception. | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/6/2004 10:39 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
Former Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork that Catholic theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis: "[Catholicism’s] disastrous theology had prepared the way for Hitler and his ‘final solution.’ [The Church published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree, not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus’s command, ‘love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."
It is not surprising, then, that Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He proclaimed essentially the same thing in a speech before the Reichstag in 1938.
Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of Forbidden Books.
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/hitler.htm
News to me! But then so much of this is. Hitler considered himself a Catholic just like so many consider themselves to be "Christian" but never live Christian lives. Perhaps they were afraid to excommunicate him. How do you "gracefully" excommunicate a terrorist? Same with placing his book on the "Church's Index of Forbidden Books." Who would've dared? Has anything been written...any statements made since his death? Does fear enter into this?
John do you think this is an attempt to lay blame somewhere for Hitler's atrocities? Was the Jesuit theologian targeting Christianity for having "spawned" a monster?
The enemy loves to see this kind of thing happen. In whose opinion were these documents by the Catholic church anti-semetic? Was this an unbiased theologian? Is there such a thing?
It's late and I'm not sure if these questions make sense to you. Do you think that we need to be careful here not to implicate the faith and traditions of catholicism?
I guess having never heard anything like this, I would question it. Is this documented elsewhere? Substantiated by others?
Nite and God Bless you Mr Earp,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/7/2004 5:13 AM (GMT -6) | | I've been reading a book about the Ariosophist and Sophist roots of National Socialism "The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology: The Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935" and I think Hitler's Catholicism was probably one of the least of his influences.
Between the wars there were various pressures that gave rise to offsetting trends among the Germans.
To offset the rapid industrialization and urbanization, many Germans headed back to "the land" in the Volkisch movement. (hippies)
To offset the increase in alienation felt due to darwinist science, many Germans turned to other spiritualities such as theosophy and it's aryan brand, ariosophy.
To offset the League of Nations mentality that Europe was one big community, many Germans dug into the past and "rediscovered" their pagan and nationalistic roots. (e.g. Wagner and his Ring Trilogy)
With darwinism (the original title of darwin's opus was The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life) the Germans found cause to place their race above that of others.
These, imho, were the main influences on Hitler and his political party (the Thule Society helped overthrow the Bavarian government, putting Hitler's party in power), not his Catholicism. What Catholicism didn't give him, was a way to answer the dilemmas the Germans faced without resorting to other, spurious means.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/7/2004 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | The main point in my posting this was simply to show that Hitler was a "professing" Christian (which is a fact well documented historically for those who wish to research it further). I also was aware of Hitler's involvement in occult teachings and practices. But again, my point was simply and only to point out that Hitler claimed to be a Christian, and that in exterminating the Jews that he was doing God's work. The antisemitism inherent to Augustinian Christianity is also well documented--Augustine was one of the first to refer to Jews as "Christ-killers." And Augustine is without question the number one most influential theologian/philosopher in the history of Western Christianity. Both the RC Church as well as Lutheranism and Calvinism drew heavily from Augustine's teachings; i.e., Original Sin, Total Depravity, mankind unable to do right, Predestinarianism, justification of persecution of noncomformists, etc.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/7/2004 8:47 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
The main point in my posting this was simply to show that Hitler was a "professing" Christian (which is a fact well documented historically for those who wish to research it further). I also was aware of Hitler's involvement in occult teachings and practices. But again, my point was simply and only to point out that Hitler claimed to be a Christian, and that in exterminating the Jews that he was doing God's work. The antisemitism inherent to Augustinian Christianity is also well documented--Augustine was one of the first to refer to Jews as "Christ-killers." And Augustine is without question the number one most influential theologian/philosopher in the history of Western Christianity. Both the RC Church as well as Lutheranism and Calvinism drew heavily from Augustine's teachings; i.e., Original Sin, Total Depravity, mankind unable to do right, Predestinarianism, justification of persecution of noncomformists, etc.
So John, should we start stoking the fire for all "Christians"?
I love this poem that Tigress posted on another topic:
Originally posted by Tigress
I always wonder what the world would be like if people didn't have the ability to see. How would we "view" each other? (Excuse the pun.) Would we be any less apt to believe stereotypes and discriminate against people? Or would we find other excuses to show prejudice like by the sound of people's accents or the way they smell to us. I think the fallen human nature makes it inevitable that we're going to use whatever differences we have to separate "us" from "them."
I wrote a poem once (rough draft) saying something to the effect of:
If the white racists blamed all the non-whites for the world's problems and so killed them all,
they'd then have to turn the blame on lower-class whites.
Once they were all dead, they'd have to blame someone else, so they'd kill all the whites with disabilities.
Once they were gone they'd have to kill all the whites who had dark hair and eyes.
Once they were gone, they'd have to kill all the whites who weren't intelligent enough.
Once they were gone they'd have to kill the whites who lived far away.
Then they'd have to kill the whites who weren't in their own community.
Then they'd have to kill the whites who weren't kin.
Then they'd have to kill all the "weaker" whites so all the women would be killed.
Then all the imperfect male whites would have to be killed, until one day only one man was left.
"Ah, now the world is perfect," he delluded himself.
For he failed to see that all the world's problems started from within himself. Once there's no one left to blame, we're faced with the reality that we must take personal responsibility for how things are in the world or else we'll be left all alone and pitiful.
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Wahoo
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 4/7/2004 8:55 AM (GMT -6) | | Wow, there is alot of food for thought here. In another month I will have more time to research some of these things for myself. But to add to the conversation...
I believe some Christians are bent on "cleansing" the world. And it is this radical form that scares me just as much as fundamental Islam. A Shiite muslim spoke in one of my classes and he pointed out that, "it is very dangerous when someone or a group believes they have the monopoly on God." I have had to test so many beliefs and theories against the word and I must admit there are times when I thought a teaching lined up with scripture until I researched it further. I am so glad this community exists that seeks to know nothing except Christ and His sufferings.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/7/2004 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Wahoo
I believe some Christians are bent on "cleansing" the world. And it is this radical form that scares me just as much as fundamental Islam. A Shiite muslim spoke in one of my classes and he pointed out that, "it is very dangerous when someone or a group believes they have the monopoly on God." I have had to test so many beliefs and theories against the word and I must admit there are times when I thought a teaching lined up with scripture until I researched it further. I am so glad this community exists that seeks to know nothing except Christ and His sufferings.
Wahoo
AMEN | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/7/2004 9:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
The main point in my posting this was simply to show that Hitler was a "professing" Christian (which is a fact well documented historically for those who wish to research it further). I also was aware of Hitler's involvement in occult teachings and practices. But again, my point was simply and only to point out that Hitler claimed to be a Christian, and that in exterminating the Jews that he was doing God's work. The antisemitism inherent to Augustinian Christianity is also well documented--Augustine was one of the first to refer to Jews as "Christ-killers." And Augustine is without question the number one most influential theologian/philosopher in the history of Western Christianity. Both the RC Church as well as Lutheranism and Calvinism drew heavily from Augustine's teachings; i.e., Original Sin, Total Depravity, mankind unable to do right, Predestinarianism, justification of persecution of noncomformists, etc.
I was surprised at the anti-church stance of these people that influenced Hitler's thought were. And anti-church in Germany at that time would have been anti-catholic was well as anti-protestant. Hitler may have considered himself a Christian but those who influenced his thought certainly didn't consider themselves that at all. That's what surprised me.
I don't remember what Hitler believed himself, it's been years since I read anything on that topic, William Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" or Ravenscroft's "Spear of Destiny". Anyways, I've only been looking at the earlier influences.
But what about the SECRET GNOSIS stuff?????? 
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/7/2004 9:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
What's interesting for me is on reading about Madam Blavatsky and theosophy and those she influenced, the ariosophists and Thule Society, Von Seboottendorf and Guido Von List and Eckhart, the direct influences on Hitler, when I read about their "secret knowlege" and "hidden masters" and "hidden mysteries" and "mysterious purposes", well I can't help thinking of..... hmmmmmmmm......
Thanks Laika for your insight.
In the public light, Hitler might have professed to be a Christian, but evil lurks in darkness; it's hidden not because it’s an unknown mystery, but because it will die in the light of truth. Truth on the other hand, is no secret to those that seek it.
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1Heart
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Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/7/2004 9:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by Laika
What's interesting for me is on reading about Madam Blavatsky and theosophy and those she influenced, the ariosophists and Thule Society, Von Seboottendorf and Guido Von List and Eckhart, the direct influences on Hitler, when I read about their "secret knowlege" and "hidden masters" and "hidden mysteries" and "mysterious purposes", well I can't help thinking of..... hmmmmmmmm......
Thanks Laika for your insight.
In the public light, Hitler might have professed to be a Christian, but evil lurks in darkness; it's hidden not because it’s an unknown mystery, but because it will die in the light of truth. Truth on the other hand, is no secret to those that seek it.
God has no hidden will.
This may be a crazy, off the wall kind of thought (one that might invite severe chastisement) but is it not possible for a Christian to do what Hitler did? Is it not possible for a Chistian to committ unthinkable, heinous acts? Not saying Hitler was a Christian but...
I know that Greg Boyd talks about us living from our true nature...who we are in Christ - but it is possible to choose not to and go the other way.
OK...go ahead - let me have it!  (Thank goodness you can delete posts!)
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/7/2004 9:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
So John, should we start stoking the fire for all "Christians"?
I have absolutely no idea why you would think I would be in support of such a thing. I am absolutely, categorically, totally against any and all violence in the name of religion, especially that which has been done "in the name of Christ" (the Crusades, the Inquisition, Luther's persecution of the Anabaptists, Calvin's persection of anyone who differed with his beliefs. etc.).
Christ's kingdom is not of this world, or else his servants would fight to establish it by military and political force.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/7/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
This may be a crazy, off the wall kind of thought (one that might invite severe chastisement) but is it not possible for a Christian to do what Hitler did? Is it not possible for a Chistian to committ unthinkable, heinous acts? Not saying Hitler was a Christian but...
I know that Greg Boyd talks about us living from our true nature...who we are in Christ - but it is possible to choose not to and go the other way.
OK...go ahead - let me have it! (Thank goodness you can delete posts!)
Jo-Anne
Matt: 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:15 - For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/7/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
This may be a crazy, off the wall kind of thought (one that might invite severe chastisement) but is it not possible for a Christian to do what Hitler did? Is it not possible for a Chistian to committ unthinkable, heinous acts? Not saying Hitler was a Christian but...
I know that Greg Boyd talks about us living from our true nature...who we are in Christ - but it is possible to choose not to and go the other way.
OK...go ahead - let me have it! (Thank goodness you can delete posts!)
Jo-Anne
Matt: 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:15 - For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Hi John,
I won't delete my post though I wasn't surprised at the swift response to it. Thank you for the verses. I appreciate the scriptural foundation for this. I for one understood your point and I know that you would abhor violence as the rest of us would and violence in the name of Christ seems even more abhorent.
But you still didn't really answer my question. Is it not possible for someone to be a Christian, turn from God and committ unthinkable sin? Does that mean you were never saved? Does it nullify the price paid for that salvation? I know at the very least one might be questioned about their salvation - but are we to judge, really? I don't believe in my heart that Hitler could have been a Christian and I don't know anyone who would dare suggest that as a possibility...but their have been Christians who have committed violent crimes in a moment of desperation or whatever and still profess to be a Christian. Abortion is a violent crime but many of those involved in that crime are Christians.
Are these verses that you gave referring to a lifestyle of sin? If they are then it is likely those involved are not believers and will suffer the consequences of choosing that lifestyle - eternal separation from the Father. I guess we can't be too quick to judge...fruit is produced by the Holy Spirit, not manufactured by us and in time the fruit or lack of it in someone's life will become evident to those who have the Spirit residing in them.
Any other thoughts on this? I don't want to hijack your thread. I know it started off a little differently than this.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne (If I look cute you might go easy on me! Or not!)
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/7/2004 12:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
Sorry, didn't mean to not directly answer your question. I do believe the verses I cited quite adequately answer the question; however, perhaps it may help to cite one more pertinent passage:
1 John 3:8 Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. 10The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.
My understanding is that one cannot be a saint and a sinner at the same time. Whether one says they "never were regenerate" or "they for the time being are not regenerate" makes no practical difference to my understanding.
The points I gather from this passage as well as the others I cited above are:
1. Certainly a born-again Christian retains the power of moral choice (ability to sin or not sin). Thus, one who is regenerate (born again) does in fact have the ability to commit murder; however, apparently Scripture reveals no middle ground, no gray area for those who would commit such crimes. That is, they are not at the same time children of God and children of the Devil. They are either acting righteously or unrighteously, if 1 John 3:6-9 is to be believed.
2. Also, it is certain that a person may be deceived into thinking they are true Christians when in fact they are not (as apparently Hitler was).
3. So long as one is committing sin, they are by definition not acting as a Christian, and unless and until they truly repent and return to loving obedience by faith in Christ, they are not progressing on the journey of discipleship, and will not reach the goal until they do in fact truly repent and begin walking in the right direction again (righteousness).
As to those who commit abortion or willingly have one done, as they are committing murder, and the Bible makes it plain that "no murderer has eternal life abiding in him," your assertion that they are in fact Christians would seem unfounded.
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Hope this helps,
John E
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 4/7/2004 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
It is not surprising, then, that Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He proclaimed essentially the same thing in a speech before the Reichstag in 1938.
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/7/2004 12:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Jo-Anne,
So is it your belief that abortion is or is not murder?
As the Scriptures cited above make plain that murder comes from the heart of a person (that is, it is definitely not accidental or unavoidable or it is by definition not murder) I guess I don't see how having an abortion (by choice) is not willful murder. The desperation you speak of basically stems from selfish motives and a lack of trust in God (which virtually define sin--selfishness and unbelief).
Only in cases where to continue the pregnancy would most likely result in the death of the mother can it possibly be true that they are not willfully sinning by having this barbaric procedure done.
Please note, I am not saying such a person is beyond redemption by grace, not at all. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Abortion is not an unpardonable sin, egregious as it is.
A very big problem I have with your position is that it would by definition justify virtually any amount of murder if one's "heart was not hard" (whatever that means). On Judgment Day, who will be on safe ground, those who murder innocent children or those who obey God's word and do not?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 4/8/2004 6:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
The main point in my posting this was simply to show that Hitler was a "professing" Christian (which is a fact well documented historically for those who wish to research it further). I also was aware of Hitler's involvement in occult teachings and practices. But again, my point was simply and only to point out that Hitler claimed to be a Christian, and that in exterminating the Jews that he was doing God's work. The antisemitism inherent to Augustinian Christianity is also well documented--Augustine was one of the first to refer to Jews as "Christ-killers." And Augustine is without question the number one most influential theologian/philosopher in the history of Western Christianity. Both the RC Church as well as Lutheranism and Calvinism drew heavily from Augustine's teachings; i.e., Original Sin, Total Depravity, mankind unable to do right, Predestinarianism, justification of persecution of noncomformists, etc.
So John, should we start stoking the fire for all "Christians"?
I love this poem that Tigress posted on another topic:
Originally posted by Tigress
I always wonder what the world would be like if people didn't have the ability to see. How would we "view" each other? (Excuse the pun.) Would we be any less apt to believe stereotypes and discriminate against people? Or would we find other excuses to show prejudice like by the sound of people's accents or the way they smell to us. I think the fallen human nature makes it inevitable that we're going to use whatever differences we have to separate "us" from "them."
I wrote a poem once (rough draft) saying something to the effect of:
If the white racists blamed all the non-whites for the world's problems and so killed them all,
they'd then have to turn the blame on lower-class whites.
Once they were all dead, they'd have to blame someone else, so they'd kill all the whites with disabilities.
Once they were gone they'd have to kill all the whites who had dark hair and eyes.
Once they were gone, they'd have to kill all the whites who weren't intelligent enough.
Once they were gone they'd have to kill the whites who lived far away.
Then they'd have to kill the whites who weren't in their own community.
Then they'd have to kill the whites who weren't kin.
Then they'd have to kill all the "weaker" whites so all the women would be killed.
Then all the imperfect male whites would have to be killed, until one day only one man was left.
"Ah, now the world is perfect," he delluded himself.
For he failed to see that all the world's problems started from within himself. Once there's no one left to blame, we're faced with the reality that we must take personal responsibility for how things are in the world or else we'll be left all alone and pitiful.
Thanks for the compliment Sparknheart!
Everything I've heard about Hitler's religious or spiritual beliefs really confuse me, because some people say that he was a Christian so they then make the leap that Christianity is not a viable religion because he practiced it and was still so obviously evil. Others say that he was not a Christian at all and that in fact he hated Catholics and Protestants alike, (or maybe it was just Protestants - I'm not entirely sure) and I've seen quotations from Hitler that seem to confirm this. Which is true?
I see the same discrepancies in what people say about America's founding fathers. Many say they were mainly deists while others have provided actual quotations by them proving that they were in fact Christians. How can any of us be really sure about the faith and beliefs about anyone who is gone now if there is not some clear record of something they've said to confirm it one way or another?
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/8/2004 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | |
(John) So is it your belief that abortion is or is not murder?
(Jo-Anne) John I believe abortion is murder, though not always premeditated...but sin none the less. Perhaps I misunderstood an earlier post of yours. I do not believe that if you have an abortion that you are not a Christian or that you lose your salvation. It is a sin that needs to be repented of and healing needs to take place beyond repentence. It is also a sin for which there are grave consequences. I do believe that all sin has a rippling effect (like the Butterfly Effect). I believe, as I say below, that "choice by choice I (we) affect eternity."
(John)As the Scriptures cited above make plain that murder comes from the heart of a person (that is, it is definitely not accidental or unavoidable or it is by definition not murder) I guess I don't see how having an abortion (by choice) is not willful murder.
(Jo-Anne) I do believe that murder can be not accidental or unavoidable in the case of abortion but still not have been a choice. It is more a choice now (an educated one then it was in the past). If something is coerced is it really a choice? Each situation is different. You might take into consideration the mental and emotiona l state of the girl/woman...possibly cultural as well. That does not make it any less evil or less of a sin but it is different than premeditated murder. I realize that this may raise objections and I am teachable. I am open to hearing more about what you or others think. The most important thing is to realize that it is a sin and all sin (as you said) is forgiveable. It is not the unpardonable sin. Neither is adultery or rape or ...
(John) The desperation you speak of basically stems from selfish motives and a lack of trust in God (which virtually define sin--selfishness and unbelief).
(jo-Anne) John, do you know anyone who has had an abortion? I'm sure that selfishness and lack of trust enter into it. But there are so many other factors that may enter into it as well, such as lack of understanding/education (which has become less of an excuse in recent years), coercion, mental and emotional health, cultural decrees, or physical safety of the mother (which I know you would not consider as abortion but it still is therapeutic abortion). I know that the Father understands what is in each heart and the motives and external variables in each situation. I also believe He is far more merciful than we understand.
(John)Only in cases where to continue the pregnancy would most likely result in the death of the mother can it possibly be true that they are not willfully sinning by having this barbaric procedure done.
(Jo-Anne) I agree with you. This is not sin. It is barbaric whether it is sin or not. Most young girls (and perhaps some women) do not realize that it is a barbaric procedure (IMHO).
(John) Please note, I am not saying such a person is beyond redemption by grace, not at all. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Abortion is not an unpardonable sin, egregious as it is.
(Jo-Anne) Amen.
(John)A very big problem I have with your position is that it would by definition justify virtually any amount of murder if one's "heart was not hard" (whatever that means). On Judgment Day, who will be on safe ground, those who murder innocent children or those who obey God's word and do not?
(Jo-Anne) Those who have received the price that Jesus paid at Calvary for their sin. I believe that you can be a Christian, have an abortion, repent and be "on safe ground." Salvation is not, however, an excuse to sin. The price that was paid was too great for that and even though He forgives and remembers our sins no more - there are consequences for sin that we may live with and sin does affect eternity.
What do you think?
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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