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Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Bibilcally, though, Creation is ex nihilo. Were the change from the fall a change in "nature" that would parallel the idea (heretical) that God creates from stuff; as the Greeks said. But God creates ex nihilo, and therefore all stuff is "created ex nihilo." The created nature stays what it is. But the very real change that does happen because of the fall is a "distortion" -- a re-orientation, a dislocation of vines from the branch. Further, nothing is self-sustaining except God. Everything created ex nihilo either: (1) continues to exist--by God's words; or, (2) ceases to exist and vanishes; or (3) is vanished and created a second time in a different nature. What you seemed to be saying above, in saying that the devil had an evil "nature" is that he gor vanished and re-created. But neither you nor I think that. So, since the devil exists--eliminating #2--the divil continues to exist with a good nature that is warped by his free choice of truning away from God and trying to be a 'god' himself.

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Originally posted by Laika

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Originally posted by johnmd
It is no secret that Piper and his church boycotted the Post 9-11 city wide prayer meeting BECAUSE BOYDS CHURCH WAS PARTICIPATING. They were RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET!!!

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Wow, I did not know that, doctor.

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Originally posted by Laika

I don't think any re-creation (that's re creation, not recreation) is needed for a change in nature. Nature is how you think/act/react/weigh choices, etc. These can change. Paul talked about a new nature. Look at Citizen Kane and his charactral development.

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Originally posted by johnmd
I think I noted from a prior post of yours you were in the Twin Cities area. This is what I heard from a Woodland Hills Church STAFF member I met at a conference I attended. I hope it is not true. If you go to WHC you could ask around the staff and verify what I heard if you know those folks well enough.

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If there others from WHC on the Board perhaps they could comment?

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Originally posted by Laika

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Originally posted by johnmd
I think I noted from a prior post of yours you were in the Twin Cities area. This is what I heard from a Woodland Hills Church STAFF member I met at a conference I attended. I hope it is not true. If you go to WHC you could ask around the staff and verify what I heard if you know those folks well enough.

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just visitors

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If there others from WHC on the Board perhaps they could comment?

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if there were, they wouldn't

best just drop the issue

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Originally posted by sparknheart
"In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity."

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Originally posted by Laika

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Originally posted by sparknheart
"In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity."

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That's a little too big for a throw pillow, could you edit it down?
Like

"Be Nice" -- Mom

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Originally posted by johnmd

"In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity."

Thanks for the reminder.
I head up a Christian Benolence ministry centered around evangelism and meeting physical needs. I work with mostly Calvinists and a few Arminians and the like. My experience is that ministering together and prayer brings the unity we all desire and God commands regardless of the nuances of our particular theologies. Sometimes I lose focus in these discussions of what is really important. I ultimately want to commend any gospel ministry, Piper or any other on this Board with thoughts different than mine.

Blessings
John

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Originally posted by Laika

How about a throw pillow with the first canon of Dordt on it?

Article 1: God's Right to Condemn All People

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• Plantinga writes: Perhaps we might leave this section with a firm grasp of the Canon's teaching about the proper attitude for approaching these sensitive doc­trines. On the one hand, if we indulge the "rash presumption" that we are elect-while chattering idly about the damned in hell-we may be pretty sure that salvation has not yet come to our house. Casual assurance and light banter about these matters are canonically forbidden. On the other hand, we are not to fear God as if He were an enemy whom no humble seeking could find and no ardent desire placate. He is "a mer­ciful God [who] has promised that He will not quench the smoking flax, nor break the bruised reed" (Art. 16).



• Plantinga writes: The God of grace seeks not to squelch, or crush, or quench, or break the tender frames and little lights of devout believers who struggle and doubt. He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust. That is why He has elected to come to us in Christ. Let all who wait for a season of richer grace spend some time following the Christ through passion and suffer­ing and doubt. Let them see to what lengths a lov­ing God will go in the profound work of rescuing His erring children.
  

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Originally posted by John Earp

PoW,

If I may interject, I really don't think Laika was saying there were two divine wills (one in Christ and one in the Father). What it seems to me he was saying was essentially what one of the councils (Chalcedon?) said: Christ had two wills, the divine and the human, and that his human will was at all times fully submitted to the divine will, which was the same, of course, as the Father's will.

Anyway, that's how I read Laika's diagram. Of course I could be wrong, and stand open to correction.

Sincerely,

John Earp

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Originally posted by johnmd
Thanks for the reminder.
I head up a Christian Benolence ministry centered around evangelism and meeting physical needs. I work with mostly Calvinists and a few Arminians and the like. My experience is that ministering together and prayer brings the unity we all desire and God commands regardless of the nuances of our particular theologies. Sometimes I lose focus in these discussions of what is really important. I ultimately want to commend any gospel ministry, Piper or any other on this Board with thoughts different than mine.

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Originally posted by John Earp

PoW,

If I may interject, I really don't think Laika was saying there were two divine wills (one in Christ and one in the Father). What it seems to me he was saying was essentially what one of the councils (Chalcedon?) said: Christ had two wills, the divine and the human, and that his human will was at all times fully submitted to the divine will, which was the same, of course, as the Father's will.

Anyway, that's how I read Laika's diagram. Of course I could be wrong, and stand open to correction.

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Originally posted by Laika

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Originally posted by John Earp

PoW,

If I may interject, I really don't think Laika was saying there were two divine wills (one in Christ and one in the Father). What it seems to me he was saying was essentially what one of the councils (Chalcedon?) said: Christ had two wills, the divine and the human, and that his human will was at all times fully submitted to the divine will, which was the same, of course, as the Father's will.

Anyway, that's how I read Laika's diagram. Of course I could be wrong, and stand open to correction.

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Yeah, what John said. Personally I don't think Jesus had two wills either. One God, one will. One Christ, one will, submitted to the Father's.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel
LAIKA: "Personally I don't think Jesus had two wills either."

PoW: SEE, JOHN!!!

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Christ’s Prayer in the Garden
By Saint John (Maximovitch)

. . . .

What was Jesus praying about so fervently? What was He entreating the Heavenly Father, thrice falling with His face to the ground? "Abba, my Father, all things are possible to Thee. Oh, if Thou wouldst deign to take this cup away from Me! If possible let this cup pass by Me; nevertheless, not as I will but as Thou wilt, not My will but Thine be done. My Father, if this cup cannot bypass me, so that I will not have to drink of it, Thy will be done."

The Lord Jesus Christ was the God-Man. Both the Divine and the human nature, undergoing neither change nor fusion, "without confusion, without division" (dogma of the Council of Chalcedon) united in Him in one Person. In conformity to the two natures, the Lord also had two wills. As God, Jesus Christ was of one essence with God the Father and cf one will with Him and the Holy Spirit. But being perfect man, with a body and soul the Lord also had human feelings and will His human will was totally submitted to the Divine will.

The Lord submitted His human will to that of God and sought only to do the will of His Heavenly Father (John 5:30); His spiritual food was to do the will of Him that sent Me and to finish His work (John 4:34). And He had to accomplish a task equal to none, a task which was to astonish even insensible, inanimate nature. He was to redeem mankind from sin and death, and to reestablish man's union with God. The sinless Saviour was to lift upon Himself all of mankind's sin, so that He, Who had no sins of His own, would feel the burden off the sins of all mankind and would experience such sorrow over it, as can only perfect sanctity, which clearly senses even the slightest deviation from the commandments and will of God. In His holy and sinless humanity, He in Whom Divinity and humanity were hypostatically united was to experience all the horror of man's separation from his Creator, of sinful humanity's alienation from God, the source of sanctity and light. At this moment the depth of mankind's fall was to become exposed. The man who refused to obey God in Paradise but heeded the devil who defamed Him, was now about to rise against his Divine Saviour, to slander Him, and, having declared Him unworthy of life on earth, to hang Him on a tree between the earth and the sky, thus bringing Him under the curse of the God given law (Deut. 21:22-23). The sinless Holy One, rejected by the sinful world for which and from which He suffered, was to forgive mankind this evil deed and to raise His prayer to the Heavenly Father, imploring the Divine Truth to likewise forgive mankind, which had been blinded by the devil, for this rejection of their Creator and Saviour. Such a holy prayer could not remain unheard, such power of love could not but unite the source of love, God, with those who, at least now, would become aware of this love and. having understood how far their ways were from the ways of God, would now resolve to return to God the Father through the incarnate Creator.

. . . .

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Originally posted by John Earp

. . . it is not clear to me how one person can truly have two wills, without also saying He had two minds, and was merely two persons in one body, which is another very unscriptural and illogical concept. It seems that the theologicians of Chalcedon in effect made Christ logically schizophrenic in affirming that He possessed two wills and two natures. But that's just my O.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

www.roca.org/OA/143-144/143c.htm
Christ’s Prayer in the Garden
By Saint John (Maximovitch)

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"Thou hast prayed that the voluntary cup of the redeeming Passion be removed as if it were not voluntary" (Sunday Matins, Tone 5, Canticle 8 of the canon), thus demonstrating two desires of two natures and asking God the Father to render His human will unwavering in its submission to God's will (Exact Exposition, 3:24). And there appeared an angel unto Him from heaven, strengthening Him [His human nature] (Luke 22:43). Nevertheless, while offering His self sacrifice, Jesus prayed with increased fervor, until He became bathed in a bloody sweat. And for His reverence and His constant submission to His Father's will, the Son of Man was heard.

    Thus strengthened and encouraged, Jesus rose from His prayer (Exact Exposition, lbid.). Now He was sure that His human nature would not waver any more, that soon the burden of human sins would be lifted from Him, and that, through His obedience to God the Father, He would bring to Him errant human nature. He walked up to His disciples and said, Sleep on now, and lake your rest Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray Me (Matt. 26:4546), rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation (Luke 22:46).

      Going forth to meet those who came after Him, the Lord voluntarily gave Himself into their hands. When Peter, anxious to defend his Teacher, struck the chief priest's servant with a sword and cut off his ear, the Lord healed the latter and reminded Peter that He is giving Himself into their bands voluntarily: Sheathe your sword, He said Am I not to drink of the cup which My Father gave Me? Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He shall presently give Me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? (Matt. 26:53). And, having voluntarily emptied the cup of sufferings of body and soul, Christ glorified God on the earth; He accomplished the task no lesser than the creation of the world itself. He restored fallen human nature, reconciled God and mankind, and made men partakers of the Divine nature (I1 Peter 1:4).

      Having accomplished the work which His Father had given Him to do, Christ was glorified also in His human nature with that glory which, as God, He had before the world was (John 17:5), and with His human nature He sat down on the right hand of God the Father from henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool (Heb. 10:13).

      Having become the author of eternal salvation for all who obey Him (Heb. 5:9), even after His Ascension into Heaven He remains known "in two natures without confusion" (Sunday dogmatikon, Tone 6), "For Thou hast borne two wills according to each of Thy two natures, O Thou Who art Christ for ever" (Sunday canon, Tone 5, canticle 8). But His glorified body can no longer suffer and is in no need for anything, and likewise also His human will can in no wise depart from God's will. In this very, body Christ will come on the last day "to judge the living and the dead," after which, as King not only according to His divinity but also in His humanity, He will subject Himself with all His eternal kingdom to God the Father, that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28). 

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