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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

www.roca.org/OA/143-144/143c.htm
Christ’s Prayer in the Garden
By Saint John (Maximovitch)

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True, even in these moments He is not alone because His Father is always with Him (John 8:29; 10:30). But in order to feel the full weight of the consequences of sin, the Son of God voluntarily allows His human nature to feel the horror of estrangement from God as well. This awful moment will be unbearable for the holy and sinless One. A loud cry will escape Him: My God my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? (Matt. 27:46). Foreseeing this hour, the holy soul is filled with horror and indignation.

Earlier, when certain Greeks came to see Jesus, He allowed His human nature to experience the approach of this dreadful hour. When these "sheep from another fold" arrived, the God Man knew that the hour was near when people would come to see Him raised up on the Cross. His human nature shuddered, His soul was filled with indignation. But Jesus knew that without His sufferings the salvation of men was impossible, without them His life's work on earth would be as fruitless as a grain of wheat that had been lying on the earth until dried out by the sun. Therefore, He entreated the Father not to allow human weakness to take hold of the thoughts and desires of His human nature: Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour; but for this cause came I unto this hour. As if heartened by the remembrance of the purpose of His sojourn on earth, Christ prayed for God's will to be done -- for the salvation of mankind: Father, glorify Thy name -- glorify it on the earth, among men. Show Thyself not only as the Creator, but also as the Saviour (St Basil, "Against Eunomius," Book 4). And the voice from heaven said, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again (John 11:27-28), thus announcing that the time had come for the fulfillment of God's mystery which hath been hid from the ages (I Col 1:26; Eph. 1:9, 3:9).

And now this time has come. If even earlier Christ's human nature had shuddered and felt indignation at the thought of what was to come, what was He feeling now, when, waiting for the arrival of His enemies and His betrayer, He prayed privately to God for the last time? The Lord knew that any prayer of His would be heard (John 11:42). He knew that if He were to entreat His Father to deliver Him from torments and death, more than twelve legions of angels (Matt. 26:53) would appear to defend Him. But is this why He came? To refuse, in the last moment, to fulfill that which was foretold by the Scriptures?
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Even now Jesus' spirit was aflame, desiring only one thing: To accomplish God's will. But as a man, in His human nature, He would have turned away from suffering and death. ( An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, 3:18, 20, 23, 24; Blessed Theophylact; St. John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, ch. 6, "On remembrance of death"). The Son of God had voluntarily adopted this weak human nature. So He now offers Himself to death for the salvation of the world. And He is victorious, although overcome bv the feeling of an approaching fear of death and loathing of sufferings (Climacus, Ibid.; Blessed Augustine; Exact Exposition, 3:24). Now these sufferings will be particularly terrible, terrible not as such, but because the soul of the God-Man is shaken to its very depths.

Man's sins, which Jesus has taken upon Himself, are inexpressibly burdensome. They press heavily upon Him, making the imminent sufferings unbearable.

Christ knows that when these sufferings reach their utmost intensity, He will be all alone. Not only will there be no human being capable of alleviating them -- I waited for one to grieve with Me, but there was none; and for one to comfort Me, but I found none (Ps. 68:21; Is. 63:5) -- but in order to feel the full burden of sins, He would be made to experience the torment of separation from the Heavenly Father. At this moment His human will might wish to avoid the sufferings. But let it not be! May His human will not depart from God's will even for a moment. This is what the God-Man prays for to His Father. If it is possible for mankind to reestablish its union with God without this dreadful new crime against the Son of God (St. Basil the Great, Ibid.), may this hour be averted. However, if this is the only way for mankind to be brought to its Creator, let God's will be fulfilled. Let His will be done and may Jesus' human nature in these terrible moments desire nothing but the fulfillment of God's will, the accomplishment of the Divine economy. This, then, is what Christ prayed for in the Garden of Gethsemane, in the days of HIS flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death (Heb. 6:7).

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

1. It shows in your earlier post that we all have this unchallenged assumption that theology is a field of Logic. Theology, literally, is "a vision of God."

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Two things:

1. It shows in your earlier post that we all have this unchallenged assumption that theology is a field of Logic. Theology, literally, is "a vision of God." And THAT is done in the heart. Those at Chalcedon had to USE logic, and defend against what might be done with it, but (I'm thinking of St. Basil and his statement that he KNEW the Holy Spirit was God by his experience of God. That's opposite of an intellectual puzzle.) the Creeds were NOT defending themselves -- they were defenind LIVE FAITH. At issue was how God had revealed himself, and how we encounter God. Contrast Basil to: "this issue seems to me be an unresolvable conflict between logic and Scripture." OUR problem is that we have, at times, conflated Scripture and logic. A.W. Tozer is a good tonic for avoiding that!!! Then: "Dr. Sanders...stated that commentators down through the centuries have simply said "Huh?" when confronted with Christ's prayer in the Garden." THAT is true more often in the West (Not only, and not throughout!) because of Scholastic expectations. TRUE Theology looks at that same scene with the heart.

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Originally posted by John Earp

Actually I think you have confused theology (reasoning about God) with theophany (a direct revelation of God, like a vision).

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Originally posted by Laika

POW, you seem to be ... chastising us for using reason and logic ... you credit (eastern church) with using scripture and "the heart" and seem to be assuming we don't use scripture and "the heart."

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"...It was the attitude of Anselm, "the second Augustine," one of the greatest thinkers of the Christian era, who held that faith must precede all effort to understand. Reflection upon revealed trugh naturally follows the advent of faith, but faith comes first to the hearing ear, not to the cogitating mind. The believing man does not ponder the Word and arrive at faith by a process of reasoning, nor does he seek confirmation of faith from philosophy or science. His cry is, "0 earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord." "Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar."

Is this to dismiss scholarship as valueless in the sphere of revealed religion? By no means. The scholar has a vitally important task to perform within a carefully prescribed precinct. His task is to guarantee the purity of the text, to get as close as possible to the Word as originally given. He may compare Scripture with Scripture until he has discovered the true meaning of the text. But right there his authority ends. He must never sit in judgment upon what is written. He dare not bring the meaning of the Word before the bar of his reason. He dare not commend or condemn the Word as reasonable or unreasonable, scientific or unscientific. After the meaning is discovered, that meaning judges him; never does he judge it.

The doctrine of the Trinity is truth for the heart. The spirit of man alone can enter through the veil and penetrate into that Holy of Holies. "Let me seek Thee in longing," pleaded Anselm, "let me long for Thee in seeking; let me find Thee in love, and love Thee in finding."i2 Love and faith are at home in the mystery of the Godhead. Let reason kneel in reverence outside.

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Mark 14:34-36

And he saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful even unto death: abide ye here, and watch. And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass away from him. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; remove this cup from me: howbeit not what I will, but what thou wilt.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

So, John and Laika, with HEAD and HEART what do you see in the Gospel narrative in Gethsemane?

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Originally posted by Laika

Jesus submitting His singular will to that of His Father's singular will.

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Having become the author of eternal salvation for all who obey Him (Heb. 5:9), even after His Ascension into Heaven He remains known "in two natures without confusion" (Sunday dogmatikon, Tone 6), "For Thou hast borne two wills according to each of Thy two natures, O Thou Who art Christ for ever" (Sunday canon, Tone 5, canticle 8).

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But His glorified body can no longer suffer and is in no need for anything, and likewise also His human will can in no wise depart from God's will. In this very, body Christ will come on the last day "to judge the living and the dead," after which, as King not only according to His divinity but also in His humanity, He will subject Himself with all His eternal kingdom to God the Father, that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28).

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

In order that:

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But His glorified body can no longer suffer and is in no need for anything, and likewise also His human will can in no wise depart from God's will. In this very, body Christ will come on the last day "to judge the living and the dead," after which, as King not only according to His divinity but also in His humanity, He will subject Himself with all His eternal kingdom to God the Father, that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28).

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THERE'S THE REASON, THE ETERNAL PURPOSE, FROM BEFORE THE AGES!

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Originally posted by feelinahole

Just because you are a "Father" of the church, or part of the church tradition don't mean you are any more correct than a persn living today, not matter propped up on a pestal you are.

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

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Originally posted by Laika

Now He's in the garden and I'll speculate:

His man-will ---> I don't want to die a horrible death, it'll be painful and I'll be separated from my Father, who is holy.

His Father's will ---> I want you to die and take on the sins of the world, alienating Me from your presence during the process due to your load of sin.

So what would His God-will be? The same as one of the others or a third alternative?

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Originally posted by PotOnWheel

So, John and Laika, with HEAD and HEART what do you see in the Gospel narrative in Gethsemane?

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