quote:

---

Feelinahole to Lee: God doesn't have a bad purpose in anything ordains; I agree, but not if I believe as you do. You would have to explain the holocaust and raped and tortured babies, but then you would (I am sure) appeal to the mystery of God, which I am not willing to put my trust in. And that is the central issue: can one trust a God who predestines such horrible things for his glory? You may be able to, I cannot. The God I serve hates such things. He allows them, but he not stained by them.

---

quote:

---

Advocates of the Open View do not at all deny that the outcome of the war is "quite certain." What the Open View says is that not everything that happens in this war is specifically willed by God. (Isa. 30:1 & 2 Pet. 3:9, for example).

---

quote:

---

If God is the primary cause, then secondary causes do not matter.

---

quote:

---

And that is the central issue: can one trust a God who predestines such horrible things for his glory?

---

quote:

---

Anyway, good talking to you

---

• God is good - we agree
• God is all powerful and can intervene to prevent evil but doesn't every time - we agree
We live in an evil world - we agree
God therefore somehow allows evil - we agree
• Why? - here we disagree

quote:

---

God causes us, humans, to sin. He is the author of sin. Everything originates with God. Sin must originate with God, because God ordains ALL that we do. Therefore God brings about sin. We are helpless against that.

---

quote:

---

Proverbs were sayings to guide a person's life (if you live by these you will succeed).

---

quote:

---

Lee, the verse you quote over and over from Proverbs I believe reminds us that God is in control through figurative language. I do not believe the author meant it to mean that God literally controls the kings actual steps, but rather behind the king sits God, who is the ultimate power.

---

quote:

---

This is also why I don't believe that the OV solves much, it provides people with a way to believe in a God that allows evil for the sake of freewill instead of a God that allows evil for a hidden/good purpose. The evil itself continues to exist and we have an all powerful God who allows it for some reason.

---

quote:

---

PR 22:8 He who sows wickedness reaps trouble, and the rod of his fury will be destroyed."

---

quote:

---

PR 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the Lord. How then can anyone understand his own way?"

---

quote:

---

JER 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

I must disagree that an "allowing" will of God causes us to sin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

that they might believe in the salvation He accomplished and avoid His wrath.

---

quote:

---

An earlier post referred to the so-called "wrath of the Lamb" and "wrath of the Father" in Revelations. Again, from an Eastern Orthodox perspective which is that of our original Greek (the West has a long history of forming its theology without being fluent in the original Greek that the East has always been), this is a mistranslation. The word in Greek is thymos. It occurs five times in the New Testament writings of St. Paul, once in Hebrews, twice in the Gospel according to Luke, and 10 times in Revelations. In general, thymos is the courageous power of the warrior and a part of the soul in Greek thought. It is also means to boil up and is a force that breaks bonds and obstacles. Thymos, even in Homer and Plato and the Bible, is the courage to overcome the fear of death. Thymos is means passion. The "passion of the Lamb" is how the Greek reads. Tou theou (so-called "wrath of God") is the "passion of God". If any of you know your early Church doctrinal history about the controversy of whether or not the "Father suffered"? Its scriptural basis was this expression in Revelations "tou theou" -- the "passion of God" (NOT "wrath of God") because everyone in the early Church read it as "passion of God" which is what the Greek means. Its the western mistranslations that screws up the west here. The early Latin translations of thymos was ardentio (ardent striving) and/or passio (passion). Later, in the middle ages after Anselm, iracundia (wrath, irate) and furor (anger) came into usage to interpret the Latin Bible's ardentio and passio christi. Protestants naively picked it up even despite the fact that a few of their Greek scholars pointed out it was wrong (bad theology drove scriptural mistranslation).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PotOnWheel

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

I must disagree that an "allowing" will of God causes us to sin.

---

This is the sort of conversation where it is hard to keep track of the subtlties of eachother's thoughts. Mostly you agree. And working through verses and looking at what is being described, I'm sure you both would track together.

God is soverign even over the devil. He corrects in all sorts of ways, and with all sorts of our interaction. No one description begins to cover it. (I think the "two wills" is just too nice an neat to be helpful.....)

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

that they might believe in the salvation He accomplished and avoid His wrath.

---

Turns out that "wrath" is a bad translation that keeps being perpetuated. I'll quote from a discussion with a PhD in Philosophy from Vanderbuilt Univ.

quote:

---

An earlier post referred to the so-called "wrath of the Lamb" and "wrath of the Father" in Revelations. Again, from an Eastern Orthodox perspective which is that of our original Greek (the West has a long history of forming its theology without being fluent in the original Greek that the East has always been), this is a mistranslation. The word in Greek is thymos. It occurs five times in the New Testament writings of St. Paul, once in Hebrews, twice in the Gospel according to Luke, and 10 times in Revelations. In general, thymos is the courageous power of the warrior and a part of the soul in Greek thought. It is also means to boil up and is a force that breaks bonds and obstacles. Thymos, even in Homer and Plato and the Bible, is the courage to overcome the fear of death. Thymos is means passion. The "passion of the Lamb" is how the Greek reads. Tou theou (so-called "wrath of God") is the "passion of God". If any of you know your early Church doctrinal history about the controversy of whether or not the "Father suffered"? Its scriptural basis was this expression in Revelations "tou theou" -- the "passion of God" (NOT "wrath of God") because everyone in the early Church read it as "passion of God" which is what the Greek means. Its the western mistranslations that screws up the west here. The early Latin translations of thymos was ardentio (ardent striving) and/or passio (passion). Later, in the middle ages after Anselm, iracundia (wrath, irate) and furor (anger) came into usage to interpret the Latin Bible's ardentio and passio christi. Protestants naively picked it up even despite the fact that a few of their Greek scholars pointed out it was wrong (bad theology drove scriptural mistranslation).

---

GOD, IN HIS ARDENT LOVE, DOES ALL THAT HE CAN TO "WOO" US (CALVIN) TOWARDS SALVATION. READ ABOVE AGAIN FOR HOW THAT GOT MISTRANSLATED.

---

quote:

---

POW:God is soverign even over the devil. He corrects in all sorts of ways, and with all sorts of our interaction. No one description begins to cover it. (I think the "two wills" is just too nice an neat to be helpful.....)

---

quote:

---

Spen says: This is also why I don't believe that the OV solves much, it provides people with a way to believe in a God that allows evil for the sake of freewill instead of a God that allows evil for a hidden/good purpose. The evil itself continues to exist and we have an all powerful God who allows it for some reason.

---

• revealed will of the Scriptures
• allowing will that somehow allows evil

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

It seems like you are saying that God is just "passionate" and that it is men who interpret or receive it as "wrath."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

There are many passages that seem to indicate that God becomes angry and that he acts and judges in this anger.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by spenlake

Are you implying that all of the passages dealing with God's anger or wrath have been misinterpreted or are you dealing with a specific passage with a specific Greek word?

---

quote:

---

Concerning Free Will and Predestination
by St. John of Damascus (8th cent.)
From his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book II, Chs. 25-30

---

quote:

---

Chapter 28. Concerning what is not in our hands.

Of things that are not in our hands some have their beginning or cause in those that are in our power, that is to say, the recompenses of our actions both in the present and in the age to come, but all the rest are dependent on the divine will. For the origin of all things is from God, but their destruction has been introduced by our wickedness for our punishment or benefit. For God did not create death, neither does He take delight in the destruction of living things. But death is the work rather of man, that is, its origin is in Adam’s transgression, in like manner as all other punishments. But all other things must be referred to God. For our birth is to be referred to His creative power; and our continuance to His conservative power; and our government and safety to His providential power; and the eternal enjoyment of good things by those who preserve the laws of nature in which we are formed is to be ascribed to His goodness. But since some deny the existence of Providence, let us further devote a few words to the discussion of Providence.

Chapter 29. Concerning Providence.

Providence, then, is the care that God takes over existing things. And again: Providence is the will of God through which all existing things receive their fitting issue. But if Providence is God’s will, according to true reasoning all things that come into being through Providence must necessarily be both most fair and most excellent, and such that they cannot be surpassed. For the same person must of necessity be creator of and provider for what exists: for it is not meet nor fitting that the creator of what exists and the provider should be separate persons. For in that case they would both assuredly be deficient, the one in creating, the other in providing. God therefore is both Creator and Provider, and His creative and preserving and providing power is simply His good-will. For whatsoever the Lord pleased that did He in heaven and in earth, and no one resisted His will. He willed that all things should be and they were. He wills the universe to be framed and it is framed, and all that He wills comes to pass.

That He provides, and that He provides excellently, one can most readily perceive thus. God alone is good and wise by nature. Since then He is good, He provides: for he who does not provide is not good. For even men and creatures without reason provide for their own offspring according to their nature, and he who does not provide is blamed. Again, since He is wise, He takes the best care over what exists.

When, therefore, we give heed to these things we ought to be filled with wonder at all the works of Providence, and praise them all, and accept them all without enquiry, even though they are in the eyes of many unjust, because the Providence of God is beyond our ken and comprehension, while our reasonings and actions and the future are revealed to His eyes alone. And by "all" I mean those that are not in our hands: for those that are in our power are outside the sphere of Providence and within that of our Free-will.

Now the works of Providence are partly according to the good-will(of God) and partly according to permission. Works of good-will include all those that are undeniably good, while works of permission are....... For Providence often permits the just man to encounter misfortune in order that he may reveal to others the virtue that lies concealed within him, as was the case with Job. At other times it allows something strange to be done in order that something great and marvelous might be accomplished through the seemingly-strange act, as when the salvation of men was brought about through the Cross. In another way it allows the pious man to suffer sore trials in order that he may not depart from a right conscience nor lapse into pride on account of the power and grace granted to him, as was the case with Paul.

One man is forsaken for a season with a view to another’s restoration, in order that others when they see his state may be taught a lesson, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man. For it belongs to our nature to be east down when we see persons in distress. Another is deserted by Providence in order that another may be glorified, and not for his own sin or that of his parents, just as the man who was blind from his birth ministered to the glory of the Son of Man. Again another is permitted to suffer in order to stir up emulation in the breasts of others, so that others by magnifying the glory of the sufferer may resolutely welcome suffering in the hope of future glory and the desire for future blessings, as in the case of the martyrs. Another is allowed to fall at times into some act of baseness in order that another worse fault may be thus corrected, as for instance when God allows a man who takes pride in his virtue and righteousness to fall away into fornication in order that he may be brought through this fall into the perception of his own weakness and be humbled and approach and make confession to the Lord.

Moreover, it is to be observed that the choice of what is to be done is in our own hands: but the final issue depends, in the one case when our actions are good, on the cooperation of God, Who in His justice brings help according to His foreknowledge to such as choose the good with a right conscience, and, in the other case when our actions are to evil, on the desertion by God, Who again in His justice stands aloof in accordance with His foreknowledge.

Now there are two forms of desertion: for there is desertion in the matters of guidance and training, and there is complete and hopeless desertion. The former has in view the restoration and safety and glory of the sufferer, or the rousing of feelings of emulation and imitation in others, or the glory of God: but the latter is when man, after God has done all that was possible to save him, remains of his own set purpose blind and uncured, or rather incurable, and then he is handed over to utter destruction, as was Judas. May God be gracious to us, and deliver us from such desertion.

Observe further that the ways of God’s providence are many, and they cannot be explained in words nor conceived by the mind.

And remember that all the assaults of dark and evil fortune contribute to the salvation of those who receive them with thankfulness, and are assuredly ambassadors of help.

Also one must bear in mind that God’s original wish was that all should be saved and come to His Kingdom. For it was not for punishment that He formed us but to share in His goodness, inasmuch as He is a good God. But inasmuch as He is a just God, His will is that sinners should suffer punishment.

The first then is called God’s antecedent will and pleasure, and springs from Himself, while the second is called God’s consequent will and permission, and has its origin in us. And the latter is two-fold; one part dealing with matters of guidance and training, and having in view our salvation, and the other being hopeless and leading to our utter punishment, as we said above. And this is the case with actions that are not left in our hands.

But of actions that are in our hands the good ones depend on His antecedent goodwill and pleasure, while the wicked ones depend neither on His antecedent nor on His consequent will, but are a concession to free-will For that which is the result of compulsion has neither reason nor virtue in it. God makes provision for all creation and makes all creation the instrument of His help and training, yea often even the demons themselves, as for example in the cases of Job and the swine.

---

quote:

---

Proverbs 22:8 is ALWAYS true?! Frankly, Lee, I think that is just a little naive. Look at the world of crime, drugs. People profit for years many times before anything happens to them. Again, much of Proverbs is a general rule, not specific.

---

quote:

---

You have not shown in any way how God is not the author of sin, given what you believe. As I have said times (and Doctor Boyd as well), if someone can give me an analogy to show how God can predetemine that we sin yet are responsible for it, I will believe.
Joseph brothers sinned because God, the primary cause, determined they would sin. God author of sin. He determine that is what they should do, therefore they could do nothing else.

---

quote:

---

Spen: I believe that you are wrong to say that "God causes us to sin." James tells us, "Let no one say when He is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God;' for God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He tempt anyone."

---

quote:

---

God is soverign even over the devil. He corrects in all sorts of ways, and with all sorts of our interaction. No one description begins to cover it. (I think the "two wills" is just too nice an neat to be helpful.....)

---

quote:

---

Turns out that "wrath" is a bad translation that keeps being perpetuated.

---

quote:

---

Ultimate victory is espoused by all. The difference is that Scripture paints a very real contrast which renders "victory" a meaningful concept and not a "production".

---