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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/10/2004 5:59 PM (GMT -6)

Spen: I wasn't offended. It just sounds to me that Seeing Is Believing is coloring all of your discussions here.
The question of the Trinity and The Open View was asked by a Mormon, so that is probably why. However, your question is framed as to imply that we all follow in Doctor Boyd's mysticism and that his book is typical of all open theists when it isn't about open theism at all. My point was simply that Open theists consider themselves Arminians and hold to the major creeds of the church as far as the Trinity is concerned.
Hops: WOW! That the quickest judgment I've seen on this board yet! Way to go! Approve

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/11/2004 1:39 AM (GMT -6)

Feelinahole,

Thank you for the explanation but I still have a question.

quote:
You say, "I think this is basically just a semantical argument. How is "the Spirit of Christ" NOT "spiritual" and NOT "Jesus"? " Does this mean you think that we have a spiritual Jesus that we meet with inside of us because the Holy Spirit dwells there?

I think that it is important, but perhaps I am unable to articulate the reason very well. Jesus was raised physically with a real tangible body of flesh and bones as we see in Luke 24:39,

I was intrigued exactly BECAUSE the initial question concerned the Mormons. Mormonism is essentially "mystical" and they claim that when a person reads Mormon they "know" it is true because they have a "burning in the breast." It is immaterial whether the book of Mormon is supported historically or objectively. Theirs is a faith based upon feeling, not an objective message. They experience interaction with spirits subjectively. Joseph Smith had no "witnesses" and we don't have the golden plates he found and translated, just his "visions." This is the same thing that Mohammad gave us, visions.

I would appreciate the Trinity from a historical orthodox perspective from the creeds of the church. What do the creeds have to say regarding my question. Is it Christological? If you don't know, just say so. I don't know very well either.

Spen Lake

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/11/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6)

Spen: I think the creeds spell out what the Trinity consists of, but not what that entails for an individual Christian's belief system (in other words, how they view it). I try to keep in mind how complex the whole issue is. I mean we are talking about God here. I, personally, have a real problem with Mormonism's lack of concrete verification of what they believe. Their own system is based on feelings and emotions, frankly, and I find that simply unreliable. Jesus' death and resurrection can be factually verified and is within history.
Could you repeat your question again for me?

I would like to add that all mystical happenings should be verified by scripture and, if from God, would not contradict scripture. I also would like to add that I, too, am very suspensious of "mystical" events in people's lives, by and large. Most are nothing more than emotions. However, based on scripture I cannot rule them out either. I just view them with a wary eye.

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/11/2004 8:38 AM (GMT -6)

Spen: may I add this: given that God is a spiritual being and not confined, as we are, to space and physicalness, I do not believe that when scripture speaks of Christ dwelling within us, I do not believe it is expressing an actual physical presense within my actual body. I believe the scriptures are talking an intense relationship. How could God be confined to space?

spenlake
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050

Posted 4/11/2004 12:15 PM (GMT -6)

I put this on the thread on Dr. Boyd's new book, Seeing is Believing. It think that this helps make it clear why the issue of a "spiritual Jesus" existing in us may be different than the Holy Spirit. In this book he takes us from a true/real historical account that was witnessed by his sisters to a spiritual experience of “real” that has no witnesses but himself.

Page 117: “No, Greggie is a bad boy, and bad boys don’t get presents.”

Becomes,

Page 121: “But this time, instead of seeing the angry wrinkled face of my grandmother, I saw the radiant, joyful face of Jesus. He leaned over the bag and peeked in with a wildly excited smile on his face. Instead of hearing my grandmother say, ‘No, Greggie is a bad boy,’ I heard Jesus exclaim, ‘Oh, of course Greggie gets a present! He is such a good boy!’ He rubbed my head vigorously as he said, ‘It’s a very special gift. That’s why I saved it for last.’ I began hopping and flapping my arms even more excited than before as I looked again into the paper sack. And there I saw a huge red toy airplane.”

The true account of history has become a false “real” account inspired by spirits that Dr. Boyd find freedom and comfort in believing as “true.” This brings to mind a passage from 2 Thess 2:11:

"because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false"

Dr. Boyd finds forgiveness for his grandmother in a false story inspired by spirits. If we examine the story closer and the message that this “spiritual Jesus” speaks, how does it compare with the words of the real Jesus that we have in black and white? Dr. Boyd’s imagined Jesus calls an unsaved sinner “good” and Dr. Boyd find this comforting. The real man Jesus said this in Matthew 19:16,

“Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

And claims His being good makes Him God in Mark 10:17 and Luke 18:18, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Does the Jesus that we know in the Bible change and call unsaved sinners “good” to comfort them. Or, is it possible that this is another Jesus and another spirit that brings Dr. Boyd comfort in a lie that he desires to believe because the truth isn’t loved?

Spen Lake

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 4/11/2004 2:14 PM (GMT -6)

Spen: I'm still reading "Seeing" so I will put up some of my thoughts about it as soon as am able. There are some things I definitely disagree with in it.

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