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Originally posted by Sisters of Cain

Nothing can go "back in time". Nothing.

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Originally posted by sparknheart

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Originally posted by Sisters of Cain

Nothing can go "back in time". Nothing.

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Hmmmm, how about a anti-event?

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I've dug up:
1. God cannot "blast back" infinite data through a finite media.
2. God cannot simultaneously "blast back" infinite data.

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Even if faster-than-speed-of-light speeds were possible*, time travel and backwards causality would be excluded.

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Originally posted by Bobber

Hi Sister Of Cain and thanks for your response...I would have to say that I disagree with the conclusion of the writers you found...

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You don't need to blast back infinite data to demonstrate what ive suggested to be true....

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Even if faster-than-speed-of-light speeds were possible*, time travel and backwards causality would be excluded.

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That's not what ive read from many other men of science....

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Originally posted by Bobber

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You state all the IF's the classical position can't answer for....im not sure how you could claim that it couldn't.....what would be so difficult to accept that God does have his eternal standpoint of being in a place where time works different [relative to us] but to us he speaks and responds on our own level or understanding of time? There's nothing which would say that he couldn't or wouldn't do this....so again I guess I fail to understand why you claim there is no coherent way to explain this....all the IF scriptures you pointed out doesn't exclude the possibility that God was responding to man within his own understanding of time..... [Bobber]

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First, doesn't it seem odd to be accusing God of being disingenuous in revealing Himself to mankind, as you are doing? [John]

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Why because God to us human beings approaches us and deals with us in a way that actually protects freedom of will that would make him disingenuous to us? Why so? What’s so very hard to accept that we on our level are not God…..Jesus said he came down from above….or a universe of a higher type and order….but in dealing with us he deals with us in our order of existence…..I fail to understand what’s so hard to accept about that….???

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Hi Sister Of Cain and thanks for your response...I would have to say that I disagree with the conclusion of the writers you found...[Bobber]

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Scientists [SisterOfCain]

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You don't need to blast back infinite data to demonstrate what ive suggested to be true....

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Yes, you do. If God knows the future, then at any moment I could ask Him any question about any future event from now until infinite eternity. In order to answer He would need infinite data "at His fingertips". [SisterOfCain]

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And again you offer NO data, NO links, NO quotes, NOTHING to back up what you say. Not very convincing.

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Originally posted by Bobber
Well here’s a few things you might want to check out

Tachyons and Faster-than-light Travel

A Brief History of Time - Chapter 10 - Wormholes and Time Travel

www.weburbia.demon.co.uk/physics/FTL.html

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Conclusion

To begin with, it is rather difficult to define exactly what is really meant by FTL travel and FTL communication. Many things such as shadows can go FTL but not in a useful way which can carry information. There are several serious possibilities for real FTL which have been proposed in the scientific literature but there are technical difficulties. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle tends to stop the use of apparent FTL quantum effects for sending information or matter.

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Remark: It may be a surprise for many physicists that even within the framework of general relativity faster-than-light speed is allowed, provided that the space-time metric of the universe is globally hyperbolic [14]. This condition simply implies that closed time-like paths in space-time (and thus time-travel) are excluded, so that causality is again preserved. (In this framework, the cosmological time parameter can be again interpreted as the absolute time of the universe. However, in order to construct a propulsion mechanism for faster-than-light travel, exotic matter (with imaginary mass) would probably be needed in order to produce negative energy densities in space. Unfortunately, exotic matter is not known to exist, although negative energy densities have been shown to appear in quantum field theory. But, of course, such a hypothetical propulsion mechanism just provokes to be given the familiar name of the warp drive.

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Originally posted by Sahid

Bobber, I checked out that site you posted and it's full of arguements against faster than light travel. It almost rules out completely both FTL travel and communication.

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I've also read Hawkings including Brief History. It's been a while but I don't remember him saying that FTL travel was even likely to be possible. [Sahid]

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Hawkings holds the multiverse theory with no support except that it allows him to postulate his existence apart from God. I say this to show that he's not afraid of taking wild, unfounded guess. (Maybe I'm wrong and there's a good reason to hold the multiverse theory, but I don't know one). If any respected scientist were to go out on a limb and say faster than light travel is possible, it would be him.

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Then there's the philosophical problem. If this info about an action's consequences is blasted back to before the action takes place, then God knows what will happen for sure. Those consequences will happen. There's no choosing. Just destiny. And now we're back to hyper-Calvinism. [Sahid]

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However, in order to construct a propulsion mechanism for faster-than-light travel, exotic matter (with imaginary mass) would probably be needed in order to produce negative energy densities in space. Unfortunately, exotic matter is not known to exist, although negative energy densities have been shown to appear in quantum field theory. But, of course, such a hypothetical propulsion mechanism just provokes to be given the familiar name of the warp drive.

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Got exotic matter (with imaginary mass)? Post a picture. [SisterOfCain]

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Tachyons can be assigned properties of normal matter such as spin, as well as an antiparticle (the antitachyon). And amazingly, modern presentations of tachyon theory actually allow tachyons to actually have real mass (Recami 1996).

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So one can ask, how fast does one need to go, in order that the time for one observer, should go backwards relative to the time of another observer. The answer is given in the following Limerick.

There was a young lady of Wight,
Who traveled much faster than light,
She departed one day,
In a relative way,
And arrived on the previous night.

So all we need for time travel, is a space ship that will go faster than light. Unfortunately, in the same paper, Einstein showed that the rocket power needed to accelerate a space ship, got greater and greater, the nearer it got to the speed of light. So it would take an infinite amount of power, to accelerate past the speed of light. Einstein's paper of 1905 seemed to rule out time travel into the past. [Stephen Hawkings]

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We thus have experimental evidence from the bending of light, that space-time is curved, and confirmation from the Casimir effect, that we can warp it in the negative direction. So it might seem possible, that as we advance in science and technology, we might be able to construct a wormhole, or warp space and time in some other way, so as to be able to travel into our past. [Stephen Hawkings]

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But this subject of space and time warps is still in its infancy. According to string theory, which is our best hope of uniting General Relativity and Quantum Theory, into a Theory of Everything, space-time ought to have ten dimensions, not just the four that we experience. The idea is that six of these ten dimensions are curled up into a space so small, that we don't notice them. On the other hand, the remaining four directions are fairly flat, and are what we call space-time. If this picture is correct, it might be possible to arrange that the four flat directions got mixed up with the six highly curved or warped directions. What this would give rise to, we don't yet know. But it opens exciting possibilities. [Stephen Hawkings]

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The conclusion of this lecture is that rapid space-travel, or travel back in time, can't be ruled out, according to our present understanding. They would cause great logical problems, so let's hope there's a Chronology Protection Law, to prevent people going back, and killing our parents. But science fiction fans need not lose heart. There's hope in string theory. [Stephen Hawkings]

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I'm not here to disagree with the notion that if one were to travel faster than light one could theoretically travel back in time. What I want to say is that your conclusion (viz., that any of this sheds light on how God "knew the end from the beginning") doesn't follow at all. By travelling "back" in time from some present moment one could at best REvisit the past. But this says nothing about travelling "forward" in time, visiting the future, which is what you conclude must be possible from the it's being possible to travel back in time by exceeding the speed of light. Knowing "the end from the beginning" by time travel would require travelling to the future from the present moment. Travelling faster than light can at best (theoretically) get to back to the past. It can't get you to the future. No way Jose. [Tom]

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BUT...even if such time travel to the future were possible--and this is the important point--the knowledge gained by such a trip would be providentially useless to God.

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God wouldn't be able to DO anything with knowledged gained by such time travel (however he accomplished it). God could neither prevent undesired events, predict what is to come, act to bring about what is desired, nor guide believers now based on knowledge gained from time-travel or timeless knowledge of the world. There's nothing a God with such knowledge could do that a God without such knowledge could not also do.

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if time travel into the past is possible, why have we not seen anyone from the future?" -- Stephen Hawking

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Originally posted by Bobber

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if time travel into the past is possible, why have we not seen anyone from the future?" -- Stephen Hawking

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Hi Sister Of Cain. Why wouldn't you have seen anyone from the future?

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Conclusion

To begin with, it is rather difficult to define exactly what is really meant by FTL travel and FTL communication. Many things such as shadows can go FTL but not in a useful way which can carry information. There are several serious possibilities for real FTL which have been proposed in the scientific literature but there are technical difficulties. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle tends to stop the use of apparent FTL quantum effects for sending information or matter.

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Tom: Basinger (arguing the uselessness of such knowledge) and Hunt (arguing the usefulness of such knowledge) debated this in print a few years back and Basinger ended up slicing and dicing Hunt to pieces. If the past could be revisited, that's one chapter of Hunt's past he'd surely change.

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He can't use that knowledge ot bring the event about, to prevent the event, to guide people toward or away from the event, or anything else. There is nothing a God with such knowledge can do that a God without such knowledge cannot also do.

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Originally posted by Bobber
Tom, lets not say to quick God can't do this or do that. Lets be careful shall we not to lock God in our box of limitations.

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1. time travel backwards is impossible (see "entropy")

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information not able to be transported

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God's knowlege of the future not possible due to lack of capacity for infinite data in a fintite

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You list Stephen Hawking, he doesn't agree with you.

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Originally posted by Bobber

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God's knowlege of the future not possible due to lack of capacity for infinite data in a fintite

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You don’t need to have infininte data to make what ive stated a reality. We’ve covered all this ground before.

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