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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Open letter on Mysticism and the Open View | Forum Quick Jump
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/12/2004 8:52 AM (GMT -6) |   | Laika,
quote:
Laika gives Matthew 10:29-31 (NIV) "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father... So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."
I presume that you mean to reply to my post above that requests Scriptures that justify an unsaved person calling himself "good" in Jesus' name and calling their authorities "bad." What of the "worth" of the grandmother? She didn't ask to raise these children. She was simply trying to do her best in caring for the children of her dead daughter and she is called "bad" by Jesus and a 2 year old? Romans 13 says, "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." Do you believe that this "worth" justifies disobeying this command in Romans 13?
Peter says
1 Peter 2:13, "Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority"
2 Peter 2:9, " the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority."
Jude says pointed things concerning men and their imaginations in verse 8. "Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties."
I see more parallels in the story recounted by Dr. Boyd with the passage in Jude than with your passage from Matthew concerning sparrows.
Spen Lake
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 9:43 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Laika,
quote:
Laika gives Matthew 10:29-31 (NIV) "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father... So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."
I presume that you mean to reply to my post above that requests Scriptures that justify an unsaved person calling himself "good" in Jesus' name and calling their authorities "bad." What of the "worth" of the grandmother? She didn't ask to raise these children. She was simply trying to do her best in caring for the children of her dead daughter and she is called "bad" by Jesus and a 2 year old? Romans 13 says, "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." Do you believe that this "worth" justifies disobeying this command in Romans 13?
Peter says
1 Peter 2:13, "Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority"
2 Peter 2:9, " the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority."
Jude says pointed things concerning men and their imaginations in verse 8. "Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties."
I see more parallels in the story recounted by Dr. Boyd with the passage in Jude than with your passage from Matthew concerning sparrows.
This is something I find very unsettling about the deterministic worldview. It can be used (and has been used) to justify basically ANYTHING.
Would you also defend Hitler's right to do as he did? He was, after all, a governing power "ordained of God," right?
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/12/2004 10:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Do we obey authorites when they tell us to curse God? I think it is important to recognize that we are called to obey authorities to the extent that they are honoring to God in their actions.
In all honesty I have no problem with someone talking about to an abusive parental authority. Christians are not called to be doormats. | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 10:22 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jesus, the ontological one, would never declare an unsaved sinner "good" and never encourage an unsaved sinner to "fight" for and defend his goodness to the authorities that are over him. Far from deserving a present, Jesus tells us that we deserve death. This is what makes the gospel so precious and gives those that believe in it the power to forgive others - underserved grace and unmerited kindness. If you think that Jesus would do this and this is supported in the Bible, please show me the Scriptures.
Not exactly what your asking for, but if there are absolutely no good people in the world, what are we to make of the following Scriptures?
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God
Romans 3:12 - They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Galatians 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:9 - (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
3 John 1:11 - Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Matt. 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:
Acts 11:41 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/12/2004 10:25 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
While I will wait for you to aswer the question that I posed to you below, I will respond to yours.
quote:
Jesus, the ontological one, would never declare an unsaved sinner "good" and never encourage an unsaved sinner to "fight" for and defend his goodness to the authorities that are over him. Far from deserving a present, Jesus tells us that we deserve death. This is what makes the gospel so precious and gives those that believe in it the power to forgive others - underserved grace and unmerited kindness. If you think that Jesus would do this and this is supported in the Bible, please show me the Scriptures.
When Paul wrote Romans 13, Nero was on the throne. I am not certain that Hitler was "better" than Nero, but I don't think that he was considerably "worse." In as much as these leaders are are in authority, we (as Christians) are not called upon to remove them but to submit and pray for them. To the extent possible, we are commanded to obey them. Hebrews 10:3 describes Christians that submitted to the temporal authorities in unjust actions, " For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one." If the authority commands an action that is against the moral law of God such as to rape, deny God, etc. I believe we have two Scripturally legal options (as Christians), to flee or to submit to the punishment given out by the authority. I don't believe that Romans 13 allows us (as Christians) to rebel and take the sword ourselves. Because we live in a democracy in which citizens are given authority and responibilities, there are actions taken by citizens that are not necessarily justified because one is a Christian. It can get more muddy. This separation of civil and spiritual government was confused and abused under Calvin and his Geneva and Cromwell and his England. This is straying from the subject and I want to keep on the thread. If you wish to pursue this please make another thread and I will be glad to interact there.
Now for my question to you...
Spen Lake
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 10:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
While I will wait for you to aswer the question that I posed to you below, I will respond to yours.
quote:
Jesus, the ontological one, would never declare an unsaved sinner "good" and never encourage an unsaved sinner to "fight" for and defend his goodness to the authorities that are over him. Far from deserving a present, Jesus tells us that we deserve death. This is what makes the gospel so precious and gives those that believe in it the power to forgive others - underserved grace and unmerited kindness. If you think that Jesus would do this and this is supported in the Bible, please show me the Scriptures.
The above quote is not a question, but in any case...
I am unaware of any place in Scripture where Jesus tells us that we deserve death simply because we're human. To the contrary, He says of little children, "of such is the kingdom of heaven." Wonder why He didn't say, "of such is the kingdom of hell?"
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/12/2004 11:04 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
Perhaps I improperly implied "resistance" in the following quote. quote:
This is something I find very unsettling about the deterministic worldview. It can be used (and has been used) to justify basically ANYTHING.
Would you also defend Hitler's right to do as he did? He was, after all, a governing power "ordained of God," right?
Secondly, Laika above, stated that humans were derserving of wrath.
quote:
I think you're confusing two issues. No one disagrees that we are, by our developed natures, children of wrath and deserving of eternal punishment. What Boyd is referring to, is that each one of us is deemed worth Jesus dying for, each one of us is the one, lost sheep Jesus deems worthy of seeking out. Not by any virtue of ours, only by virtue of the worth God values each of us.
We deserve wrath but God seeks us out. And you still have avoided the question. Where do you find Scriptures that show that Jesus would call unsaved sinners "good" and advocate them calling their authorities "bad" consistent with the actions of Dr. Boyd's spiritual INtological "Jesus."
Spen Lake
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 11:18 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
Perhaps I improperly implied "resistance" in the following quote. quote:
This is something I find very unsettling about the deterministic worldview. It can be used (and has been used) to justify basically ANYTHING.
Would you also defend Hitler's right to do as he did? He was, after all, a governing power "ordained of God," right?
Ah, but what I was saying that we need not (and indeed, MUST not) try to morally JUSTIFY evil actions, governments, and even evil grandmas based on Romans 13. I was not saying we should take up the sword against such, and I am absolutely certain Dr. Boyd wasn't saying this either.
quote:
We deserve wrath but God seeks us out. And you still have avoided the question. Where do you find Scriptures that show that Jesus would call unsaved sinners "good"
The way you have phrased the question makes the answer a foregone conclusion. Of course sinners are not "good" while they are sinning.
However, what do you make of the many Scriptures I posted which plainly assert that SOME people are in fact good? Jesus himself says in many places that there are some good and some evil people in the world, and each will receive what's coming to them. (Not necessarily what they deserve, for no one who has ever sinned can deserve anything but hell, but the point is Jesus makes it clear that there are basically two classes of people in the world: Good and Evil).
As to the psychobabble stuff about dealing with your childhood demons, (so to speak) I find it just plain silly and perhaps a little more profitable than gazing at one's navel. (FWIW).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/12/2004 11:29 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Laika,
You say: "The grandmother made him feel completely worthless in essence. But we AREN'T completely worthless in essence. Jesus deems each one of us worth Him dying for us. Each one of us. That's his point."
The grandmother called him a "bad boy." You call this action making him "feel" completely worthless. How is this different? In one case you hold it to be bad and in the other case Dr. Boyd claims that this is how Jesus encouraged him to act. How do you keep these two opposing views consistent? Why aren't Dr. Boyd's actions, according to your paradigm, making the grandmother feel completely worthless?
OK, I went to pages 119 - 121 and read the story.
The grandmother was an ADULT. Boyd was a CHILD. The grandmother gave him not gift and said "Bad boys don't get presents."
This is not the same as saying, "Because you did this bad thing, this time you will not get a present."
It's a blanket, general condemnation, "You are in essence bad and never get presents." This can be extremely damaging to a child.
You NEVER tell a child they are bad, you tell them what specific action they did that was bad. That is not mentioned here, she just stated he was bad, essentially bad.
In confronting this, he goes back and
1. recognizes he's NOT essentially bad
"I'm not a bad boy; I'm not. Jesus says so."
2. recognizes that the grandma DID something bad
"You're a bad grandma for doing this to me."
The grandma's ACTION is condemned, not her essential being. It's an adult response, more of an adult response than that of the grandma.
That's the whole point. He was made to feel that his essential nature was BAD and that he would always be BAD and that BAD boys NEVER get presents. Of course that would be damaging to a child. The grandmother should have known better, she was the ADULT.
Why did you underquote the story to make your point? Saying Boyd called his grandmother a "bad grandmother" leaving out the "for doing this to me"????????
This is incorrect
quote:
The spiritual "Jesus" of Dr. Boyd encourages Dr. Boyd to call his grandmother a "bad grandmother."
It was really
"You're a bad grandma for doing this to me."
The Holy Spirit ALWAYS convicts us of specific sins, NOT general, vague, blanket condemnations.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
John,
The only people that God considers "good" in the world are those that are "good" because they have believed and trusted in the goodness that Jesus bought for them by His substitutionary death on the cross. There is no other way for us to be "good." ALL of our righteousness is as filthy rags and not "good." The only two classes of people are those that believe in Christ and take refuge in His goodness and those in unbelief who don't.
That's okay if you want to believe that, but that really doesn't address the clear statements from the Scriptures I gave, many straight from Jesus himself. In Scripture, Jesus himself never says anything in the gospels about God being in effect blind to people's true character by virtue of some kind of imputation scheme. You are reading your theology back into Scripture. Is it safe to assume you deny the authority of the Scriptures I cited earlier?
quote:
Dr. Boyd made it explicitly clear on page 57 that he wasn't a Christian before the age of 17. We know that this means that he couldn't have been "good" in the eyes of Jesus of the Bible. This is core to the teachings of the gospel.
This is a good example of how to beg a question.
quote:
The INtological spiritual "Jesus" of Dr. Boyd tells this 6 year old nothing of the cross and how to obtain a "foreign goodness" that He had paid for and does offer as a free gift to all. He tells an unsaved sinner that he is "good" and encourages him to call the legitimate authority "bad." It is only in believing this INtological false-truth that Dr. Boyd found the power to forgive his grandmother. This isn't an exageration, it is what the book says.
I'm willing to give you this one, as I haven't read Boyd's book, and I also think we actually agree on the unscripturalness of Jungian psychology as an avenue to spiritual and emotional health.
quote:
I say that you have not supported this Jesus spoke words that conform to the words of the Jesus of the Bible.
I don't know to what you are referring. Please explain.
quote:
I gave you Scriptures to support my position. The words of this other Jesus are diametrically opposed to those of Scripture. Perhaps it is time to admit that maybe Dr. Boyd made a mistake?
Again, I have not read Boyd's latest book, and am merely trying to respond to the points YOU have raised. I don't have enough information to make a decision yet about the book, but I think anyone can see that you are quite selective, biased, and unfair against Boyd in your "review" of this book.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/12/2004 12:09 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I thought that this debate centered on the authority of Scriptures and that it didn't revolve around our own opinions or psychology. What is it that determines whether a spirit is sent by God or not? I believe that it isn't feelings but factual conformity to the command in 1 John 4:1 not to believe every spirit but to test them.
Spen,
I realize you may not believe this, but I'm almost 100% certain that most of the people who post here believe in an evangelical view of the authority of the Scriptures. I know I do.
However, you seem to want to beg the question that affirming the Bible means we must accept an argument from a specific to a general without qualification; e.g., because the Bible says we are to accept authority, we ought NEVER question it.
This is arguing from a specific (Romans 13) to a general (in all cases), and furthermore is a gross misapplication of the principle laid down by the Apostle in this chapter. The same New Testament which tells us to obey secular authorities also gives the qualitification "We must obey GOD rather than men."
As to Jungian psychological methods, you were the one who brought that up, if I'm not mistaken, correct? I have said more than once in this thread that I don't agree with trying to use Jungian psychological methods to help someone grow spiritually. But I am not really an expert on it; that is merely my lay opinion (though I am a minister and do counseling from time to time. I don't think Dr. Boyd's expertise is in that field either)
To the extent that Boyd's approach to this subject is in fact Jungian, to that extent I affirm that it is unscriptural. However, I don't have enough factual data to draw the conclusion that Boyd's method is in fact Jungian (or Freudian, or Gestalt).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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