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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Open letter on Mysticism and the Open View | Forum Quick Jump
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 4/12/2004 4:44 PM (GMT -6) |   | Spen's entire critique boils down to the utterly demonic implications of a little kid in the midst of an abusive relationship imagining Jesus embracing him and telling him he is a "good boy."
So we are all clear. Spen defends the abusive grandmother over a little kid in need of kindness and a word from his loving Father. Instead, Spen's answer to the little kid is sterile high brow "DOCTRINE" which further beats the kid down and fails to account for the "kindness of God that leads to repentance."
Of course Spen's postion is not surprizing in the least to those familiar with Calvinistic doctrine in which children, even infants are damned to eternal torment simple because they have not been "elected" by God. So it is no great stretch to envision this God getting in a little abused kids face and quoting Scripture reminding him that he indeed deserves to be abused.
This is where the doctrinal rubber meats the road in exegesis. The implications of Calvinism has no problem sending an infant to hell. Arminianism et. al asserts that there is a state of innocence which renders the grace of God operative in the life of a little kid such that God can indeed console a child, embrace a child, encourage a child and without disingenuity say "you are good boy" BECAUSE YOU ARE CREATED IN MY IMAGE. Let the little children come unto me... Let the reader fill in the blank. What kind of interaction goes on there? A doctinal dissertation on total depravity or a pat on the head and a smile with a word of encouragement?
God forbid when Jesus can't come to the rescue of an abused little kid and tell him he's a "good boy" without someone looking over his shoulder and regurgatating Scripture out of context (e.g., reminding the kid he is to be subject to government officials), expecting Him to interact with the child as if he were an adult, and offering a solution that renders Jesus more of a oger than a Savior.
Let the reader decide. "Read 'em and weep." I have said enough on this thread. There is more than enough material pro and con to make a decision on what kind of a Savior that we have and how Scripture indicates we are to interact with Him.
To God alone be the glory
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/13/2004 1:03 AM (GMT -6) | | John,
Thank you John for confirming that you see that what I am calling mysticism is indeed linked to the Open View. You define the problem and the solution differently according to your OV worldview and this is what I have stated.quote:
John writes; So we are all clear. Spen defends the abusive grandmother over a little kid in need of kindness and a word from his loving Father. Instead, Spen's answer to the little kid is sterile high brow "DOCTRINE" which further beats the kid down and fails to account for the "kindness of God that leads to repentance."
I never defend the acts of an abusive grandmother but simply state the fact that the Bible doesn't consider unsaved sinners "good" and give the Scriptural reasons why. That is exegesis. In addition, the Bible doesn't consider unsaved grandmothers any more "good" than unsaved grandsons - unless she also repents she likewise will perish. You have failed to show that Scriptures call unsaved sinners "good," that this unsaved "goodness" is to be defended in the name of Jesus, nor have you shown that it commands us to believe INtological false-truth for freedom. I have not been quoting Calvin, Luther or any reformer, just Dr. Boyd vs. Bible that we share.
quote:
John claims; This is where the doctrinal rubber meats the road in exegesis.
I wish it did meet here in EXEGESIS. So far you have not assailed me with your Scriptures and their authority to prove why we should believe spirit-inspired lies in the face of objective truth to find freedom. You have turned the Bible upside down by implying that "you shall believe the false-truth and the false-truth will set you free." The truth of the historical event was witnessed by sisters that have no recollection of the events that the spirit guide of Dr. Boyd asked him to believe for his freedom.
In the end, you support and justify in the name of God a "Jesus" whom I have shown acts contrary to the Jesus of the Bible because it feels good to you. quote:
God forbid when Jesus can't come to the rescue of an abused little kid and tell him he's a "good boy" without someone looking over his shoulder and regurgatating Scripture out of context (e.g., reminding the kid he is to be subject to government officials), expecting Him to interact with the child as if he were an adult, and offering a solution that renders Jesus more of a oger than a Savior.
As I read your post "Instead, Spen's answer to the little kid is sterile high brow 'DOCTRINE.'" I am reminded of what the Creator of the Universe spoke to us in words given by men of His choosing and by the Holy Spirit in 2 Timothy 4:3,
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
Titus 1:9, "holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict."
1 Timothy 4:6, "In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following."
The choice is between a Savior that came with the objective message of God, calling sinners to repent and believe that He really was the lamb of God, forgiving the sins of those whose debt was too great for them to pay. This man objectively was raised from the dead to prove that his words were true and factual - the historical event occured, even according to the objective witnesses. If Dr. Boyd's sisters had been present, they would have witnessed a man who was God raised from the dead. Out of inexpressible gratitude that God died to pay a monumental debt that I was incapable of paying and gave me life, I cannot help but forgive my grandmother and her small debt towards me.
vs.
A spiritual guide called "Jesus" who teaches us that I am an unsaved "good" person. He instructs and inpires me on how to create an internal INtolgoical "reality" that never happened or was witnessed by anybody. He empowers me to believe so strongly in this false-truth "that unsaved people are good," in order for me to reconstruct history in my mind and find "freedom" in the his inspired falsehood. This freedom gives me a sense of well-being and healing. In the power of this new found false-truth I can boldly go and forgive my grandmother.
These two views are NOT compatible. Only one is true and only one is supported by Scripture. Let the reader decide.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/13/2004 5:33 AM (GMT -6) | | (Spenlake) "I am not limiting the omnipresence of Diety, I am limiting how we are commanded to know it and how it reveals itself."
(Jo-Anne) Spen. It is impossible to limit diety or how we are to know it or how it reveals itself. We are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. Our minds were integral in experiencing the creator. He even speaks to us through creation so that we are "without excuse." He speaks to us in more ways than we dare imagine. I appreciated what John had to say. As long as the Jesus of our "imagination" (Dr. Boyd is speaking of Holy Spirit inspired imagination) is congruent with the Jesus of scripture that we see, then I don't see what the problem is. I am more concerned about people not experiencing Him then about people who experience Him in creative ways. Jesus was creative in how He taught and ministered to people. People "experienced" Him. Why shouldn't they now? I believe many of the gifts (prophecy) are Holy Spirit inspired imagination and have been instrumental in transforming lives as well as increasing faith.
(Spen) "Is this revelation of Diety subjective or objective? Diests and other pagans may well believe in an all powerful creator that is omnipresent. I am sure diests do. This is not what defines Christianity nor the centrality of Christ. Your reply highlights my concern that these mystic methods promoted by Dr. Boyd lead to a different Christ than the one revealed in the Scriptures. The centrality of the revelation of Christ revealed in the Scriptures, becomes less central and the Christ of our imaginations becomes more central."
(Jo-Anne) Spen, revelation is always subjective. It comes through the filter of personality, culture, experience... I do not believe from what I have read so far that Dr Boyd is promoting some kind of mystic method. He is encouraging others to experience prayer." Prayer is one of the hardest things for Christians to do. Yes, it is a discipline but it is to be experienced as well. The Holy Spirit breathes life into our understanding (head knowledge) of the Saviour and He becomes real to us. This reminds me of the Velveteen Rabbit. He only became real as he was loved, as he was experienced. Jesus was never meant to be put on a shelf and admired but to be experienced as real in our lives. What are you afraid of? Just think Spen...believers may get excited about their prayer lives and you know what scripture teaches about the fervent prayer of a righteous man/woman. I believe that Dr Boyd has done this work carefully and his heart is to inspire Christians. I also believe that the Father through the Holy Spirit is totally trustworthy and dependable to keep those believers who are seeking Him "on track." Created in His image, I'm sure He knew that we would use our imagination (inspired by Him) to experience our faith as well as using our God given intellect, gifts ...
(Spen) "Scriptures can then be interpreted according the the Christ inside us rather than the revealed objective one. We come to Christ through His Word by the Spirit, not through our imagination by the Spirit. It appears to me that pagan concepts described in "God at War" are becoming more clear as they are expressed in the mystical Jesus of our imagination."
(Jo-Anne) It is the Holy Spirit that illuminates our understanding of the scriptures (the Christ inside us). The "Christ inside us" is subjective as well as objective.
What "pagan concepts" in "God At War" are you referring to Spen?
God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/13/2004 6:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
quote:
Jesus was creative in how He taught and ministered to people. People "experienced" Him. Why shouldn't they now?
revelation is always subjective. It comes through the filter of personality, culture, experience...
This reminds me of the Velveteen Rabbit. He only became real as he was loved, as he was experienced.
I think that you have accurately descibed the God and reality of a subjective "Jesus." A Velveteen Rabbit that we believe to be real and loving would be every bit as INtologicaly real (according to internal experience) as a spiritual "Jesus" that I believed in INtologicaly. Your belief that revelation is always subjective is exactly what is not true about the true Jesus. There is the Jesus, the ultimate REVELATION OF GOD HIMSELF, that came as a man to be held, touched and listened to. He was alive and as God He gave us God's words orally - not subjectively or felt. This is the Jesus that came in the flesh that John speaks of, "what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen and touched with our hands." And the Word was manifest and we have seen the only begotten of the Father. This is the Jesus that MUST be confessed by every spirit that comes from God according to 1 John 4. Every spirit that fails to confess (not deny) is not of God, but a spirit guide. There was and is an objective revelation that makes Jesus different than the Velveteen Rabbit.
You say, "I also believe that the Father through the Holy Spirit is totally trustworthy and dependable to keep those believers who are seeking Him "on track." I also believe this and therefore we must obey the commands that He has given us to do this in His objective word, some of which we find in 1 John 4.
Jo-Anne, you tell me, "I believe that Dr Boyd has done this work carefully and his heart is to inspire Christians." I am in agreement with you. I do not believe that Dr. Boyd is some cheap or rapacious charlatan. I believe that he is sincere and have offered evidence to that effect. I also believe him to be wrong and his teaching on this matter to be dangerous - sincere but dangerous. I appreciate your illustration of the Velveteen Rabbit and I will use it again. If I told you that if you only believed in the Velveteen Rabbit enough you could forgive others and be reconciled to God, I would be lying. Blind faith isn't enough. It must be grounded in objective revelation.
God bless you and thank you for your post.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/13/2004 1:47 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Jo-Anne,
quote:
Jesus was creative in how He taught and ministered to people. People "experienced" Him. Why shouldn't they now?
revelation is always subjective. It comes through the filter of personality, culture, experience...
This reminds me of the Velveteen Rabbit. He only became real as he was loved, as he was experienced.
I think that you have accurately descibed the God and reality of a subjective "Jesus." A Velveteen Rabbit that we believe to be real and loving would be every bit as INtologicaly real (according to internal experience) as a spiritual "Jesus" that I believed in INtologicaly. Your belief that revelation is always subjective is exactly what is not true about the true Jesus. There is the Jesus, the ultimate REVELATION OF GOD HIMSELF, that came as a man to be held, touched and listened to. He was alive and as God He gave us God's words orally - not subjectively or felt. This is the Jesus that came in the flesh that John speaks of, "what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen and touched with our hands." And the Word was manifest and we have seen the only begotten of the Father. This is the Jesus that MUST be confessed by every spirit that comes from God according to 1 John 4. Every spirit that fails to confess (not deny) is not of God, but a spirit guide. There was and is an objective revelation that makes Jesus different than the Velveteen Rabbit.
You say, "I also believe that the Father through the Holy Spirit is totally trustworthy and dependable to keep those believers who are seeking Him "on track." I also believe this and therefore we must obey the commands that He has given us to do this in His objective word, some of which we find in 1 John 4.
Jo-Anne, you tell me, "I believe that Dr Boyd has done this work carefully and his heart is to inspire Christians." I am in agreement with you. I do not believe that Dr. Boyd is some cheap or rapacious charlatan. I believe that he is sincere and have offered evidence to that effect. I also believe him to be wrong and his teaching on this matter to be dangerous - sincere but dangerous. I appreciate your illustration of the Velveteen Rabbit and I will use it again. If I told you that if you only believed in the Velveteen Rabbit enough you could forgive others and be reconciled to God, I would be lying. Blind faith isn't enough. It must be grounded in objective revelation.
God bless you and thank you for your post.
Spen,
I do see what you're saying. The revelation of God in Jesus Christ is not subjective - but how it translates to each individual, how we interpret it is subjective. It can't not be (double negative happening here). Does that make sense?
And I probably should've known better than the "Velveteen Rabbit" analogy. Any analogy taken too far breaks down (I think) but the point was that truth may be truth but unless it is experienced (taken in and processed and fleshed out) it isn't "real" to us as individuals. That's why the Bible says that "darkness doe not understand the light." Those in spiritual darkness have not experienced the truth of God in their lives. You can have head knowledge but it means literally nothing unless you take that knowledge and put it into practice.
I think that is what Dr Boyd is getting at in Seeing is Believing. How can we experience God - not just talk about Him? How do we put our God given imaginations into His service? How does He inspire us?
I'm only on chapter 1 but you've inspired me to read another chapter tonight!
Jo-Anne (experiencing the truth) 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/13/2004 2:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne,
There certainly IS a subjective part of Christianity. We are creatures of emotion and experience both guilt and gratitude. What I am claiming is that "subjective revelation" (and I actually do believe in it - spirits are active), needs to be carefully weighed against the only objective measure that we have - the Bible and the objective Jesus revealed there. I maintain that spirits (Holy and otherwise) can interact with us subjectively in an ongoing basis. They can give us thought and dreams and impressions. I believe Scriptures indicate that the only way to be CERTAIN that it is the Holy Spirit is that it is validated by Scripture.
The Jesus that we put our trust in, who gives us salvation and sanctification, is objective. The great concern of this book is made extremely clear in this historical account. Dr Boyd finds the power to forgive by believing a made-up recreation of historical events as "real." The greater his faith in this "inspired pseudo-event" that didn't happen, the greater the power to forgive. Nothing could be farther than the gospel that Jesus brings us and that was taught by credible witnesses. Jesus OBJECTIVELY comes to slaves of corruption burdened to death with a debt they could not pay. Jesus physically dies for them and is then raised from the dead as a historical fact verified by witnesses who toughed and ate with Him. This death paid our mountainous debt and set us completely free and gave us life. How, after receiving such a wonderful gift, could we help but forgive our sinning grandmother? The first power to forgive is based in "delusion" with faith in an event that didn't happen. The second illistrates the power of the gospel resulting from faith in an event that did occur and forgiveness that springs from gratitude for a real present.
The first example leaves us with a pseudo-gospel of, "you shall know the false-truth and the false-truth shall set you free." This is exactly what is being claimed by Dr. Boyd. The gospel of the second illustration does have a subjective emotion of gratitude that is experienced, but it is based on a factual event, not inspired false-history.
Spen Lake
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di
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 49
| Posted 4/13/2004 6:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Spenlake, I have been following this thread with interest and would like to get your reaction to the following.
As an adult woman on the other side of a painful struggle with infertility…one day as I was praying, the Holy Spirit guided me to recall a childhood memory…
I’m five or six years old – downstairs at the house where I grew up – looking up at Santa (very suspicious that he looked an awful lot like Uncle Gene  ) but anyway, Santa begins to hand out presents to all the children, my two brothers, then my sister, then each of my five cousins, one by one Santa calls out their name HO! HO! HO! and with excitement and smiles they are handed a present to open. But then, there are no presents left, Santa’s bag is empty, and there was no present for me. 
I hear my Dad say “Sandy, how could you forget her present!!!” It was evidently an oversight on Mom’s part  oops... But now, I’m remembering the joy each of my siblings and cousins experienced as every one of them were eventually blessed with a child, then another, and another… and I’m remembering the pain of those days, the unmet desire, the disappointment…month after month, hoping, praying… the old thought that I’d been forgotten, overlooked, why wouldn’t God bless me with this gift? Please! Tears flowed followed by sobbing at the deep pain I didn’t even know still existed.
Then, there was Jesus, sitting on the step beside me, with his arms around me, he told me the TRUTH “In this world YOU WILL have trouble, but I leave you my peace…I have given you many gifts…and I will never leave you nor forsake you, I will be with you always, until the end.”
The tears became tears of joy and gratitude welled up in me as I experienced Jesus' love and concern for me, his compassion, his gentle, healing touch.
Forgiveness wasn’t necessary in this memory, but Jesus did bring truth and healing to this six year old child who did not know the truth at the time. She just felt forgotten. But Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/13/2004 9:06 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by di
Spenlake, I have been following this thread with interest and would like to get your reaction to the following.
As an adult woman on the other side of a painful struggle with infertility…one day as I was praying, the Holy Spirit guided me to recall a childhood memory…
I’m five or six years old – downstairs at the house where I grew up – looking up at Santa (very suspicious that he looked an awful lot like Uncle Gene ) but anyway, Santa begins to hand out presents to all the children, my two brothers, then my sister, then each of my five cousins, one by one Santa calls out their name HO! HO! HO! and with excitement and smiles they are handed a present to open. But then, there are no presents left, Santa’s bag is empty, and there was no present for me.
I hear my Dad say “Sandy, how could you forget her present!!!” It was evidently an oversight on Mom’s part oops... But now, I’m remembering the joy each of my siblings and cousins experienced as every one of them were eventually blessed with a child, then another, and another… and I’m remembering the pain of those days, the unmet desire, the disappointment…month after month, hoping, praying… the old thought that I’d been forgotten, overlooked, why wouldn’t God bless me with this gift? Please! Tears flowed followed by sobbing at the deep pain I didn’t even know still existed.
Then, there was Jesus, sitting on the step beside me, with his arms around me, he told me the TRUTH “In this world YOU WILL have trouble, but I leave you my peace…I have given you many gifts…and I will never leave you nor forsake you, I will be with you always, until the end.”
The tears became tears of joy and gratitude welled up in me as I experienced Jesus' love and concern for me, his compassion, his gentle, healing touch.
Forgiveness wasn’t necessary in this memory, but Jesus did bring truth and healing to this six year old child who did not know the truth at the time. She just felt forgotten. But Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!
Di,
That is indeed beautiful and definitely sounds like it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Perfect example. I have one as well that I may share sometime.
Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/14/2004 1:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Di,
I don't know if this will help explain the paradigm that I am offering, but I will try.
You begin with, "As an adult woman on the other side of a painful struggle with infertility…one day as I was praying, the Holy Spirit guided me to recall a childhood memory…"
I would look at this as a "spirit" guided you to a memory. If you were not there to "pursue spiritual experiences through methods or techniques," which you seem to imply, I see no danger. Peter had a trance once when he was praying. I just don't think he was chasing a trance. Spirits speak to us. We see in 1 Kings 22:22 and Deut 13:3, that God can send even deceiving spirits to speak to us and to test us. I am not saying that it was either good/evil yet, I don't think I know. The fact that we are commanded not to believe every spirit proves that we are subject to hear from both. (There is no qualification in 1 John 4 like "except if you're praying and have pleaded the blood.") Thus, I don't know it is the Holy Spirit yet, just that it was a spirit bringing a memory.
Next you state,
"Then, there was Jesus, sitting on the step beside me, with his arms around me, he told me the TRUTH “In this world YOU WILL have trouble, but I leave you my peace…I have given you many gifts…and I will never leave you nor forsake you, I will be with you always, until the end." This sounds much like a composite of passages I know. Oddly, in looking them up I noticed that in each one of these passages the objective Jesus whom the disciples knew spoke them. In each one of the passages below, there were witnesses to the words that He spoke for you.
John 16:23, "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
John 14:26, "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful."
Luke 11:13, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
Matt 28:20 "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
The spirit that was speaking these words to you was speaking the words that Jesus had already spoken once.
John 16:13 says,"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."
I think that one could say, based upon the objective evidence, that this spirit brought truth and the words of Jesus, not speaking on its own. I understand that this happened while you were unsaved. What seems radically different to me in this case is that these words were true before you were born. They were not calling you good or defending your goodness. All these words point to Jesus and His work. It is true that Jesus loves us and we should experience great comfort in that. If later in life you hadn't believed in the gift of His substitutionary death and received the Holy Spirit, His gift to all believers, then these statements would have still been true but they wouldn't have brought you comfort if you died in unbelief. The tribulations we experience now are nothing compared to what believers are promised later.
Lastly you state, "The tears became tears of joy and gratitude welled up in me as I experienced Jesus' love and concern for me, his compassion, his gentle, healing touch." This emotion is common to those who have spiritual experiences, both true and false. The emotion is the reaction to the comfort, but not the comfort itself. I am grateful that yours rests on the written word of God and the promises given by Jesus in the flesh. You can be certain that this message is true, true in spite of the objective factual life we also see as true and experience as real. This is a strong source of comfort that nothing in the world nor all the demons of hell can revoke.
It seems diametrically opposed to the "Jesus" in Dr. Boyd's book. I think that you experienced the real Jesus through His real words maintaining the real painful world, not through false words that built a fake world instead. The spirit only gave you comfort in the promises of Jesus and His eternal gift to you, which are true and real, based on the witness of the apostles. Contrast this to the false "Jesus" of Dr. Boyd who offers comfort in Greggie's goodness and a false-temporal-gift that never happened. The "feeling" of comfort from the spirit may be identical. The actual basis for the comfort is the difference between delusion and true freedom.
Spen Lake
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di
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 49
| Posted 4/14/2004 10:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Di,
I don't know if this will help explain the paradigm that I am offering, but I will try.
You begin with, "As an adult woman on the other side of a painful struggle with infertility…one day as I was praying, the Holy Spirit guided me to recall a childhood memory…"
I would look at this as a "spirit" guided you to a memory. If you were not there to "pursue spiritual experiences through methods or techniques," which you seem to imply, I see no danger. Peter had a trance once when he was praying. I just don't think he was chasing a trance. Spirits speak to us. We see in 1 Kings 22:22 and Deut 13:3, that God can send even deceiving spirits to speak to us and to test us. I am not saying that it was either good/evil yet, I don't think I know. The fact that we are commanded not to believe every spirit proves that we are subject to hear from both. (There is no qualification in 1 John 4 like "except if you're praying and have pleaded the blood.") Thus, I don't know it is the Holy Spirit yet, just that it was a spirit bringing a memory.
Next you state,
"Then, there was Jesus, sitting on the step beside me, with his arms around me, he told me the TRUTH “In this world YOU WILL have trouble, but I leave you my peace…I have given you many gifts…and I will never leave you nor forsake you, I will be with you always, until the end." This sounds much like a composite of passages I know. Oddly, in looking them up I noticed that in each one of these passages the objective Jesus whom the disciples knew spoke them. In each one of the passages below, there were witnesses to the words that He spoke for you.
John 16:23, "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
John 14:26, "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful."
Luke 11:13, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
Matt 28:20 "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
The spirit that was speaking these words to you was speaking the words that Jesus had already spoken once.
John 16:13 says,"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you."
I think that one could say, based upon the objective evidence, that this spirit brought truth and the words of Jesus, not speaking on its own. I understand that this happened while you were unsaved. What seems radically different to me in this case is that these words were true before you were born. They were not calling you good or defending your goodness. All these words point to Jesus and His work. It is true that Jesus loves us and we should experience great comfort in that. If later in life you hadn't believed in the gift of His substitutionary death and received the Holy Spirit, His gift to all believers, then these statements would have still been true but they wouldn't have brought you comfort if you died in unbelief. The tribulations we experience now are nothing compared to what believers are promised later.
Lastly you state, "The tears became tears of joy and gratitude welled up in me as I experienced Jesus' love and concern for me, his compassion, his gentle, healing touch." This emotion is common to those who have spiritual experiences, both true and false. The emotion is the reaction to the comfort, but not the comfort itself. I am grateful that yours rests on the written word of God and the promises given by Jesus in the flesh. You can be certain that this message is true, true in spite of the objective factual life we also see as true and experience as real. This is a strong source of comfort that nothing in the world nor all the demons of hell can revoke.
It seems diametrically opposed to the "Jesus" in Dr. Boyd's book. I think that you experienced the real Jesus through His real words maintaining the real painful world, not through false words that built a fake world instead. The spirit only gave you comfort in the promises of Jesus and His eternal gift to you, which are true and real, based on the witness of the apostles. Contrast this to the false "Jesus" of Dr. Boyd who offers comfort in Greggie's goodness and a false-temporal-gift that never happened. The "feeling" of comfort from the spirit may be identical. The actual basis for the comfort is the difference between delusion and true freedom.
Thank you, spenlake, for your thoughtful response. I'm not ready to comment on the book yet, however. Maybe later.
blessings, di
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/14/2004 11:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
I am not sure how you mean that he spoke to you but you could act in faith beliving that the command Jesus literally spoke in Matthew 10 applies, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ While I don't doubt that the Holy Spirit and other spirits speak to us, I am not certain beyond all doubt that it is the voice of the Holy Spirit if I don't see written confirmation. Spirits speak to us and what is certain is what is written and objective. I do believe in prophecy, modern prophecy now that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. We are commanded to test the words of men claiming to speak for God. Test against what, our feelings? When God speaks to us, however, we have only two options, to obey or to sin. We obey the voice of God. It is the voice of men and subjective spirits claiming to speak for God that we are commanded to "test." When I hear statements like "God told me.." I am cautious. If is is the least bit wrong, and God doesn't lie, then there is a problem - with the man. Improperly caliming to speak for God is stealing His authority and borders blasphemy.
I prefer something like, "I thought I felt God speaking..." I admit my capacity to be wrong, especially about my feelings. In any case, you can be reassured that gratuitous acts of selfless kindness to your neighbors seem permitted by Jesus Himself and your revelation has Scriptural grounds to it.
Spen Lake
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Laika
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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/14/2004 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Laika,
I am not sure how you mean that he spoke to you but you could act in faith beliving that the command Jesus literally spoke in Matthew 10 applies, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ While I don't doubt that the Holy Spirit and other spirits speak to us, I am not certain beyond all doubt that it is the voice of the Holy Spirit if I don't see written confirmation. Spirits speak to us and what is certain is what is written and objective. I do believe in prophecy, modern prophecy now that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. We are commanded to test the words of men claiming to speak for God. Test against what, our feelings? When God speaks to us, however, we have only two options, to obey or to sin. We obey the voice of God. It is the voice of men and subjective spirits claiming to speak for God that we are commanded to "test." When I hear statements like "God told me.." I am cautious. If is is the least bit wrong, and God doesn't lie, then there is a problem - with the man. Improperly caliming to speak for God is stealing His authority and borders blasphemy.
I prefer something like, "I thought I felt God speaking..." I admit my capacity to be wrong, especially about my feelings. In any case, you can be reassured that gratuitous acts of selfless kindness to your neighbors seem permitted by Jesus Himself and your revelation has Scriptural grounds to it.
Now you're starting to make sense. Test what's being said.
Now why is what Boyd's saying about a child wanting to feel like he has worth so unscriptural?
Don't you think we all have worth?
Didn't grandma just blanket condemn him, "you're a bad boy and bad boys don't (ever?) get presents"?
She didn't say, "you did this specific wrong action and in this instance you won't get a present". It was a blanket condemnation.
'You are worthless' is what I hear her saying.
'Your worth is such that My Son would have died for you alone' is what I hear God saying.
Don't you agree?
Anyways, that's my take on the matter....
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
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spenlake
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Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/14/2004 1:44 PM (GMT -6) | | Spen's rely to Laika,quote:
Laika says:
Now you're starting to make sense. Test what's being said.
Now why is what Boyd's saying about a child wanting to feel like he has worth so unscriptural?
You agree we are to test what is being said, by "imagined Jesus" and Dr. Boyd. What follows is my explanation of why it is so unscriptural. Dr. Boyd is teaching us a method to find comfort in an imaginary false historical record that he is claiming is inspired. Forget the good and bad boys for a minute and look at the larger context. I am being asked to "believe" and experience this false so much that it becomes more real than the real. It is in this that he promises me freedom.
Dr. Boyd tells us on page 17 that, "Chapter 7 outlines an imanginative spiritual exercise that I call "resting in Christ. This book is largely the written version of a seminar I have led on this form of prayer over the last sixteen years."..."By focusing on the use of Spirit-inspired imagination in prayer,"..."In chapter 8 I provide and example from my own life of how the Lord can use our times of resting in Christ to free us from the deceptive messages of our traumatic memories."
This process of reconstructing alternate "realities" that aren't real in the objective factual sense and calling them Biblical and Holy Spirit inspired is gravely concerning. We must test them to see if they are indeed from God as Dr. Boyd claims. He gives his own example (pages 116 - 125 dealing with a historical event witnessed by his sisters) as proof of how the Lord frees us from traumatic memories through practicing the spiritual exercise he is teaching. In his example, Dr. Boyd's freedom from these memories occurs because a spirit convinces him that a spirit-inspired false-reality, not witnessed by his sisters, is more real and should be believed.
Intentionally convincing myself to believe in what is false isn't Scriptural, but delusionary. 2 Thess 2:11 is speaking about people forsaking the objective truth for a delusion. The definition of delusion is a fixed false belief held in spite of evidence to the contrary. Dr. Boyd is claiming that this is not delusion because the inspired internal "reality" is greater evidence than the objective external event that was witnessed by his sisters. Bunk. This is not the objective truth of the gospel nor the objective revelation of Christ. His teachings on this imaginative spiritual exercise fail the test.
I believe that the "truth" means objectively true. Your doctor is teaching one that he acknowledges is objectively false but is real anyway because he has experienced it. This is what delusion looks like. Sincere, heart-warming and comforting delusion. The delusion doesn't revolve around good or bad boys but history that is being re-invented and believed for comfort - in the name of God.
Christianity is not "hiding from facts through delusion," although that is what the pagans accuse us of. Christianity is standing firm on the promise of God, given objectively with words and proved by the resurrection, in the face of acknowledged real tribulations and experienced sin and real pain. We are not teaching people to become truth escape artists or delusionary mystics - unlike the false teachings of this book.
Your defense of this overall broadview from Scriptures is what I am hoping for. Or, perhaps Dr. Boyd has made a sixteen year mistake and he should repent and return to the gospel and its awesome power to heal our incurable wound.
Spen Lake
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 4/14/2004 10:51 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by di
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Di,
That is indeed beautiful and definitely sounds like it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Perfect example. I have one as well that I may share sometime.
Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne
Very nice to meet you moon river J - I've enjoyed reading you and getting to know your gentle, loving spirit. I'm usually an innocent bystander around here, just reading, gleaning...but every now and then I have to say a few words. So until we meet again, God bless you and I'll look forward to hearing the something you're going to share.
Nice to meet you too di and thank you. That is very kind of you. I will share my own Holy Spirit Inspired prayer experience on this thread (but not tonight...it's too late).
I do want to share a quote from Greg Boyd's book though -that fits with what you have been saying - especially in your last post for Spen.
"...imagination, when guided by the Holy Spirit and submitted to the authority of Scripture, is our main receptor to the spiritual world. Sadly, the modern Western world has been largely dismissive of this receptor. This, to a large degree, explains why modern believers do not experience their faith as real and do not experience radical Spirit-inspired transformation. It also explains why, though we try so hard, we gain so little and are so tired."
- Seeing is Believing by Gregory Boyd
Nite and God Bless, (Sweet Dreams...inspired by Him )
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/15/2004 1:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Di, quote:
Di says to spenlake,
"nowhere does the Bible or Greg Boyd tell us to believe the false. Are you at all willing to step back and possibly see his re-presentation of a traumatic childhood memory from another perspective? Could your current perspective be limiting your ability to see the Holy Spirit's work in this?
Believe me, I share your passion for not trading truth for lies. But is it possible you are going too far in your accusations because of your own perceptions?"
I agree with you Di, that nowhere does the Bible tell us to believe the false. I disagree with you regarding Dr. Boyd. That is exactly what he is acking me to believe. If you said, "nowhere does Dr. Boyd maliciously tell us to believe the false," I could also agree. This is patently not the case.
On page 122 Dr. Boyd states what is happening in resting in "Christ,"
"What the Lord is doing is reworking memories like the one I've share is rooting out our deception from our experienced self-identity by confronting it at the place where it first became lodged in our minds. He is quite literally entering into our neurological network where memories reside and altering it, thereby changing the meaning that the memories have for us."
Page 124, "As Christ overcomes the evil of the destructive memory with His goodness, for your own sake you must overcome evil with good."
We find this event culminating on page 125, "As the memory unfolded, we got to the point where I saw Jesus instead of my grandmother, and I was grabbing onto my airplane as Jesus was hugging me. I was experiencing all the same emotionsI previously expereinced with this event. Then I looked up and saw my grandmother there....I ran to her and she picked me up and gave me a big hug - something she never did in real life. And with this Jesus came over and hugged the two of us together. We enjoyed this loving embrace for some time....I left with the sense that I now have what I lost a long time ago. I am healed."
The method that he proposes is to create false-memories to battle the true memories; finding increasing comfort in the emotions felt as he strengthens belief/experince in the non-event. This is the method of altering of the neurological network. This is not a Christian exercise, Jungian psychologists has been doing this for years. He follows in the tradition of Jung and his spirit guide Philemon. This isn't an innocent Christian practice. It is an occult exercise that has brought warm comfort to pagans for many years. It has "worked" for years in bringing healing and emotional well-being to the New Age spiritists.
Our gospel and the hope that we have for an eternal inheritance is based upon the factual events and the factual historical record of God and His objective promises to us, promises for tangible glorified bodies and a tangible resurrection unto life. Dr. Boyd finds healing and forgiveness in imagining an event that never happened in real life. The power to forgive comes from believing in a non-real event that he expereinces. It enables Dr. Boyd to extend forgiveness on the basis of his warm fuzzy feelings. It is very much like a "velveteen rabbit reality" where we can believe in anything and anyone can experience a reality of their own making that with each just as valid - if only we love and believe enough.
The basis for such beliefs is not the Bible. We find them in the writings of the occultist Carl Jung and his disciple Morton Kelsey. We find existentialist thought based upon the belief that there are only subjective interactions with God and spirits. We do not find that the Bible supports finding "experiential false-truth" in creating and believing in a re-created historical record. This is not resting in Christ, but delusion.
Spen Lake
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