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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > Open letter on Mysticism and the Open View | Forum Quick Jump
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/15/2004 2:41 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
quote:
Laika says; Changing the meaning is NOT "changing reality" and "believing the false".
Changing the memory itself and encouraging ourselves to experience this non-event to such an extent that we experience a dersired emotion, is attempting to change the objective historical record into relativity in which the truth is only what is experienced within each person. This is existentialism, there is only subjective input from God to man.
Boyd says, "change the meaning", spenlake sees, "change the memory".
Boyd says, "change the meaning", spenlake sees, "change the objective historical record".
Boyd wants to exchange grandma's lie for the truth.
spenlake sees, "truth is only what is experienced within each person".
dood, you're having cognition problems. But I'm not surprised.
1. You think Jonah is a false prophet, you have no evidence.
God talked to Jonah about his attitude and never mentioned anything about Jonah's message.
The Jeremiah passage showed EXACTLY what went on with Jonah and Nineveh.
Even God fails your prophet test with regards to Hezekiah.
Jesus mentions Jonah, "the prophet" and not in a bad way.
Yet you "see" a false prophet with Jonah. It's like you're "changing the historical record" with your insights. 
2. "Somehow" the shortening of life to 120 years post-flood is related to the discontinuation of the Nephilim/giants, yet 1365 years after the flood, David kills the giant, Goliath. (bonus points, what does "goliath" mean?)
So despite there being no proximity in time between the two events, you "somehow" link them. It's like the truth of this is only experienced by you.
3. And now, Boyd wants to change the meaning of a past experience by changing grandma's lie into the truth. And you see a bad acid trip.
We're going to call you the fullback, because give you the ball and a thin sliver of an opening and you REALLY RUN WITH IT!!!! 
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/15/2004 3:18 AM (GMT -6) | | Laika,
I gave you the message of the gospel and you ask me below, "Has it worked?" It is the only thing that works for eternal life and eternal healing. I would advise a suicidal person to understand their own debt of sin. In understanding their own sin they can realize the wonderful amazing event of God sending His own son to die for them. This understanding of an an objective love proven by the death of God, brings forth gratitude that transforms people - even suicidal people. They are no longer their own but they are bought with a price. They can believe 2 Cor 5:15, " He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf." They have hope and life because of a historical event communicated to them by God, objectively through men who witnessed the resurrection as proof of the truth of the promise.quote:
Laika says, And has it worked?
A suicidal person, who sees no worth in living anymore, would you advise them to "understand their own debt of sin and sinful actions" as well?
You would give them what? A hope that if they could actually imagine that the events that drove them to suicide were less real than the false-truth they could experience with your exercises, then they would have emotions of hope. If all we have in this life is the kind of hope you offer, we are of all men most to be pitied - comfortable and healed in our spiritual delusion. I hope that your views are only extreme examples of the beliefs of those on this board.
Spen Lake
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Mayflower
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Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 4/15/2004 3:58 AM (GMT -6) | | .
Greetings, Spen:
I doubt if Laika's beliefs are "extreme examples" on this board.
You see, the majority who frequent this board are here because we are open to learning about O.V.; and/or embrace this theology.
Peace & blessings,
<><
Spen wrote: quote:
I hope that your views are only extreme examples of the beliefs of those on this board.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/15/2004 4:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Hello Spen,
The word of God was communicated through the Spirit by word of mouth long before the written word.
You miss the point by staring at the finger which only points to the truth of the Triune God.
Who believes Scripture is true and knows it word for word better then you? Do you want a hint? He is a prince that bears no fruit of the Holy Spirit. And if you can not or will not discern the Holy Spirit by the fruit it bears, then you yourself can be deceived by Scripture. Yes, the king of lies can riddle you with Scripture. The Holy Spirit is our Consoler every moment of our day, every beautiful thought that comes to mind and every dream that is worthy of pursuing and it is this same Spirit that gives us the wisdom to comprehend the Bible and the teachings of Jesus.
With a perverted perception of the will of God being sometimes either good or evil, then you should be encouraged to run from any book that might let you use your imagination. Void of the counsel of the Holy Spirit, you have no way of discerning God from Satan outside of your lone understanding of Scripture. Your theological foundation will not permit you outside of the box you are in bondage to. The king of deception, the source of all lies is the fear that keeps your mind captive from moving beyond the conditioning of this fallen world. Nobody is worthy of the grace of God, we all fall dwarfed as sinners. But being created in the Image of the Triune God we are worthy to Him. It was never God’s intent for us to be stained with sin and He wants us to come home to His welcoming arms of comfort.
Your concern over the minds ability to discern fantasy from reality is well taken since temptation was conceived in the mind of Eve and the fact that all sin in this day is still conceived in our minds first. The mind is where the battle begins; it is where we need to take up arms against the god of this age. It is by the renewing of our minds to the true image of God and the image we were created in that can equip us to overcome such delusion that this fallen world has conditioned us to believe. To visualize the True Image of who we are in Christ, is to use the eyes of our imagination and see beyond the distortion that Satan deceived Eve with and beyond the same distortion that he uses today in coercing you to believe that you have no worth, and sadly, unworthy of fixing the eyes of your imagination on Jesus.
Peace be with you.
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/15/2004 4:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by SwanLake
quote:
Originally posted by sparknheart
Peace be with you.
I notice you use the word "peace". The hippies frequently used the word "peace". They also pursued a course of frequent drug taking, rebellion against authorities and sexual abandon and Eastern misticism.
Why would you trade the peace of God for the peace of an alternative existence, one full of drugs and sex and rock and roll? You are trading the gospel, the actual pages and English words and margins, for an alternative reality just like Carl Young and Cigmande Froyd.
Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we raise our eyes more than a centimeter from what we're staring at.
Shalom be with you.
Peace I bequeath to you, my own peace I give you, a peace the world cannot give, this is my gift to you.(Jn. 14: 27, NJB) | | Back to Top | | |
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/15/2004 9:04 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
Spark,
We are not speaking about the finer points of exegesis or biblical Hebrew or Greek. To purport that we should find freedom by experiencing a false-event so that it becomes more real than a historical event is antithetical to "knowing the truth and the truth shall set you free." The only way to bridge this gulf is to mystically redefine "truth" as "experienced false-events." False-events that are considered as real may be defined as a lie. This Satan that you mentioned is the father of these. The Spirit of Truth ONLY speaks the truth. The God I believe in can and does send spirits of deception (1 Kings 22:23; 2 Thess 2:11). It isn't a semantic game - there is factual truth and there is false imagination that attempts to call itself truth. The proof of which is which is in the evidence. This is why we have witnesses in the Bible and courts of law - to verify an event they objectively experienced as real. If you claim an internal experience that is anti-factual history is more real than the factual history, in spite of the witnesses who experienced the actual event - this is delusion, even if you find comfort there. DELUSION :a fixed belief held in spite of evidence to the contrary.
quote:
It is by the renewing of our minds to the true image of God and the image we were created in that can equip us to overcome such delusion that this fallen world has conditioned us to believe. To visualize the True Image of who we are in Christ, is to use the eyes of our imagination and see beyond the distortion that Satan deceived Eve with and beyond the same distortion that he uses today in coercing you to believe that you have no worth, and sadly, unworthy of fixing the eyes of your imagination on Jesus.
The true image of God isn't one that has to be experinced in falsehood to be "real." To "visualize" by imagining an anti-factual event in order to experience freedom is not resting in the "True Christ" but a distortion of our own making, delusion. This is an "anti" Christ, a substitute, that we have created ourselves with the help of spirits.
Brother Spen,
I’m sorry that I don’t have time right know to try and interact with you. I would say, that there should be prerequisites to the book you are critiquing. Like I said before, your theological foundation does not permit you to see beyond the box you are imprisoned in. As a brother in Christ it should be my duty to slap you in the face like Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had to do to Micaiah.
God is not evil.. God is not evil.. God is not evil...
1 Kings 22:23-24 (NIV)
"So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you."
[24] Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. "Which way did the spirit from the Lord go when he went from me to speak to you?" he asked.
The following is Matthew Henry’s commentary on the verse you referenced (1 Kings 22:23):
The greatest kindness we can do to one that is going in a dangerous way, is, to tell him of his danger. To leave the hardened criminal without excuse, and to give a useful lesson to others, Micaiah related his vision. This matter is represented after the manner of men: we are not to imagine that God is ever put upon new counsels; or that he needs to consult with angels, or any creature, about the methods he should take; or that he is the author of sin, or the cause of any man’s telling or believing a lie. Micaiah returned not the blow of Zedekiah, yet, since he boasted of the Spirit, as those commonly do that know least of the Holy Spirit’s operations, the true prophet left him to be convinced of his error by the event. Those that will not have their mistakes set right in time, by the word of God, will be undeceived, when it is too late, by the judgments of God. We should be ashamed of what we call trials, were we to consider what the servants of God have endured. Yet it will be well, if freedom from trouble prove not more hurtful to us; we are more easily allured and bribed into unfaithfulness and conformity to the world, than driven to them.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/15/2004 9:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Spark,
I must say that you professional posters are too good at flashing. I think you mean to say that Matthew Henry seems to imply that Micaiah was the false prophet for saying that God sends deceiving spirits? I encourage people to get out their commentaries and read the complete account themselves. What Matthew Henry says in his unabridged commentary on page 519 of the Hendrickson version is the following: quote:
3. He informed the king to know how it was that all his prophets encouraged him to proceed, that God permitted Satan by them to deceive him to his ruin....This matter here is represented after the manner of men...(I)t it to teach us (1) God is a great king above all kings...(2) That He is continually attended and served by an innumerable company of angels, those heavenly hosts, who stand by him, ready to go where He send them and do what He bids them, messengers of mercy on his right hand, and messengers of wrath on His left hand. (3)That He not only takes cognizance of, but presides over all the affairs of this lower world, and overrules them according to the counsel of His own will...(4)That God has many ways of bringing about His own counsels, particularly concerning the fall of sinners when they are ripe for ruin; He can do it either in this manner of in that manner. (5) That there are many malicious and lying spirits who go about continually seeking to devour...(6)It is not without the divine permission that the devil deceives men, and even thereby God serves His own purposes...
Zedekiah, a wicked prophet, impudently insulted in the face of the court, smote him on the cheek to reproach him, to silence himand stop His mouth, and to express his indignation at him (thus was our blessed Savior abused.)
God sends deceiving spirits in 1 Kings 22 and we find a parallel in 2 Thess 2:11. This hardening by God was affirmed by Dr. Boyd in his debate on March 19. Is this what you wish to refute? It appears that you are simply trying to deflect the real issue in question because you have no scriptural answers.
We still have not dealt with the core issue that I raised concerning Dr. Boyd's book and mysticism. Creating and experiencing spirit inspired imaginary false-events that must be experienced as more real than the factual events themselves is not "resting in Christ" but finding comfort in delusion.
Spen Lake
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/15/2004 1:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Sparky,
Sparkenheart tells Spen:quote:
As a brother in Christ it should be my duty to slap you in the face like Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had to do to Micaiah.
I am a bit concerned that you and your teacher, Dr. Boyd, have found a "brother prophet" in Zedekiah, son of Kanaanah. If you are resting in the same "Christ" that inspires Dr. Boyd's comforting false-truth, it is a concern. A more explicit quotation from Matthew Henry concerning your brother prophet may give you cause to reconsider the company you keep.
"The false prophets were always the worst enemies the true prophets had, and not only stirred up the government against them, but were abusive to them, as Zedekiah here."
I am hoping that you misread the text and mistakenly took the wrong side. The good guy is Micaiah. The bad guy is Zedekiah who did the slapping.I trust you simlpy made a mistake, following your feelings and inspiration, instead of the text. Faithful are the wounds of a friend.
Spen Lake
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victoryword
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 181
| Posted 4/16/2004 7:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
WHUT?!!!
eee-is Massuh Lake still cawzin' trubbo heah on ids heah fo-rum? I duz declayah dat Massuh Lake dun riled up sum foke heah.
Uh Oh, Ah's bettuh remembuh's muh place befo' Ah gets a whuppin'
VW, yer still my closer, I got you under contract, don't fergit.
Well Laika, never let it be said that the VDubster ever renigs on a contract 
Guys, I have tried to follow this discussion to the best of my ability. I have the book in question but I have not made it past chpater three yet (church work, secular, family, and other things, including the fact that I was already in the process of reading about three other books before I bought this one, are keeping me from reading to far). I have browsed through some of it.
I remember in my early introduction to the Charismatic Movement there was an emphasis on "inner healing." Is this what this book is basically about? That seems to be what I am gathering from the discussion here.
If your beliefs cannot be supported by Scripture, they ain't worth supporting
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 4/16/2004 7:46 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
Guys, I have tried to follow this discussion to the best of my ability. I have the book in question but I have not made it past chpater three yet (church work, secular, family, and other things, including the fact that I was already in the process of reading about three other books before I bought this one, are keeping me from reading to far). I have browsed through some of it.
I remember in my early introduction to the Charismatic Movement there was an emphasis on "inner healing." Is this what this book is basically about? That seems to be what I am gathering from the discussion here.
I'm only up to chapter four or five but I think you're probably right. Some of it is probably similar to "inner healing".
I'm like you, I've got at least four books started and when I try to read any of them, I usually fall asleep. Don't take that as indicative of the author's work, though, I'm just tired alot.
In fact....... zzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZ
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 4/16/2004 8:27 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/16/2004 8:55 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I am hoping that you misread the text and mistakenly took the wrong side. The good guy is Micaiah. The bad guy is Zedekiah who did the slapping.I trust you simlpy made a mistake, following your feelings and inspiration, instead of the text.
Brother Spen,
I’m not saying Micaiah, or you for that matter, are the “bad guy”. On the contrary, I believe you're a "good guy", a very articulate person, with an obvious passion for God or you would not be here at this site. But outside of one person, we all do wrongs, we all make mistakes and we all sin against God. Moses was a “good guy” in the Bible, but do we forget that he also murdered and it was his arrogance that kept him out of the promise land. Should we murder and be arrogant because Moses did? In the verse you referred to (1 kings 22:23), Micaiah was wrong to say that God sent demonic angles and spirits. He was speaking sarcastically (even the king knew this), making fun of the messages from the pagan prophets by showing that they were telling the king only what he wanted to hear. Somehow, Micaiah’s tone of voice let everyone know he was mocking the pagan prophets. When confronted, he predicted that the king would die and the battle would be lost. Let’s not take Micaiah’s story out of context and fool the readers. We see here in 22:14-15 that he says the king will live. Then as we continue reading, we here him lie about God sending evil. It is not until 22:28 and 22:35 that Micaiah starts speaking the truth and says the king will die.
1 Kings 22:14-22 (NIV)
But Micaiah said, "As surely as the Lord lives, I can tell him only what the Lord tells me."
[15] When he arrived, the king asked him, "Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?" "Attack and be victorious," he answered, "for the Lord will give it into the king's hand."
[16] The king said to him, "How many times must I make you swear to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the Lord?" [17] Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the Lord said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' "
[18] The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?" [19] Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. [20] And the Lord said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. [21] Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, 'I will entice him.' [22] " 'By what means?' the Lord asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the Lord. 'Go and do it.'
1 Kings 22:28 (NIV)
Micaiah declared, "If you ever return safely, the Lord has not spoken through me." Then he added, "Mark my words, all you people!"
1 Kings 22:35 (NIV)
All day long the battle raged, and the king was propped up in his chariot facing the Arameans. The blood from his wound ran onto the floor of the chariot, and that evening he died.
Please move away from the book for a minute and debate the question is God the author of evil. Below are some links, or if you like, start a new one.
www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3043
www.christusvictorministries.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3096
After you thoroughly investigate/debate/discuss the issue and you still conclude that God can be evil, then I will meet with you personally with a can of lighter fluid and we will burn your copy of Boyd’s book.
Blessings to you.
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/16/2004 9:35 AM (GMT -6) | | Spark,
I do not, nor have I ever belived that God is the author of evil. While Micaiah WAS sarcastic in his response in verse 15, it is odd to me that you consider the rest of his statement sarcasm as well. The differences in our view of biblical prophets, with my views on Jonah and yours on Micaiah, certainly demonstrates a gulf.
Instead of pursuing this passage, Lets look at the one in 2 Thess 2;11. What is happening here? Is it at all parallel to what we find in 1 Kings? We also see God hardening Pharoah's heart. Could this be similar? I hear Dr. Boyd say that he believes that God can harden one's heart against His word as He did Pharoah. This is not a unique thought, even in the Open View. Nor does it make God the author of evil. Is the angel of death a "good thing?" In Exodus 12:29 it says that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt. It was not a good night to be born first and be an Egyptian. I would guess to a first born Egyptian, this would have looked bad/evil. The protection of the blood was offered to all and those that failed to take refuge were struck dead by the Lord. Perhaps there were even newborns, hours old, that the LORD struck dead. Psalm 78:49 explains to us a means that the LORD used. It tells us that God sent "a band of evil angels." He leveled a path for His anger and did not spare their soul from death. None of this means that God is the author of evil, just it's Sovereign. In light of these and other passages, it doesn't seem unscriptural to believe that what Micaiah sad was true.
Spen Lake
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 4/16/2004 10:31 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by spenlake
I do not, nor have I ever belived that God is the author of evil.
Here is your qoute: "The God I believe in can and does send spirits of deception"
quote:
While Micaiah WAS sarcastic in his response in verse 15, it is odd to me that you consider the rest of his statement sarcasm as well.
Please explain.
quote:
None of this means that God is the author of evil, just it's Sovereign. In light of these and other passages, it doesn't seem unscriptural to believe that what Micaiah sad was true.
Please state your case that "God is not the author of evil" I would like to hear it.
It is scripturally true that Micaiah said what he said, but it does not make what Micaiah said true. | | Back to Top | | |
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spenlake
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 4/16/2004 11:21 AM (GMT -6) | | Spark,
I affirm that the God I believe in can and does send spirits of deception. Leaving 1 Kings aside, looking at 2 Thess 2:11, I would believe that the deluding influence would have a spiritual dimension. The hardness that Pharoah was sent kept him from obeying/listening to the voice of God. I believe that this had a spiritual dimension.
That God is sending deception through false prophets seems to be what is meant by Jeremiah as he laments.
Jer 4:10, "Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘You will have peace’; whereas a sword touches the throat.”
It seems that this sending of deception is linked to sin.
Hebrews 13:3, "“Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. "
1 Timothy 4:1 speaks of deceiving spirits and how they deceive, through liars and teachings. This is interesting in the Great Sending of the ultimate deceiving spirit on the world in Rev 12:9. God cast him to earth and allowed him to do his work. This work Satan does through the mouths of those He has deceived.
1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,"
Revelations 12:9, "And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."
When I read 1 Kings 22:24 unlike you, I don't see a false prophet rightly bringing correction to the true prophet who prophecied falsely.quote:
"Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, “How did the Spirit of the LORD pass from me to speak to you?"
I think that you believe Zedekiah was right somehow. If so, Zedekiah was also confirming that the spirit within the prophets of Baal had passed to Micaiah. Thus, if you believe what Zedekiah said was true, you must also take the part that calls the it the Spirit of the LORD. (If so it would also prove my point, but I don't believe this is the case.) I don't believe that this deceiving spirit passed from Zedekiah to Micaiah. I believe that Micaiah's words about what happened in Heaven were accurate and factual. It is no worse than Rev 12:9.
I believe that the passage in Revelation presents a strong argument supporting my claim that God sends deceiving spirits. If God can send deceiving Satan to earth and allow him to deceive the world, he can certainly send a single deceiving spirit to a few hundred false prophets. In either case, He is not the author of evil, just the Sovereign that has sent evil to accomplish His will, in this case to bring about judgment.
Spen Lake
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 4/16/2004 3:30 PM (GMT -6) | | I can't believe I find myself agreeing with spenlake on anything, but...
I see absolutely NO problem with God sending evil spirits to torment, delude, or deceive people in certain circumstances. I also do not see this as inherently contradicatory to the goodness of God.
Read the passages in context where it is said that God sends evil spirits, and you will see why it is not evil for Him to do so in such cases (even within an Open View framework). HINT: Do we consider prison guards evil? How 'bout executioners?
Anyone...anyone?! Buehler?
(If no one else explains this apparent contradiction tonight, I will give the answer some time tomorrow).
P.S.: I just got my copy of Seeing is Believing. Will probably read it this weekend and will get back with y'all about it. And just so you know, spenlake, I have never been a big fan of "inner healing" type of teaching, though I think there is some basic nugget of truth to the idea that every believer needs to realize who they really are in Christ, so that they can be free to lovingly serve God and their fellow man. I am indeed suspicious of attempts to edit or erase or even "heal" one's memories. The reason I mention this is that I notice David Seamands enthusiastically endorses Seeing is Believing on the back cover, and I recognize his name as being a principle leader in the "inner healing" movement of the 70s and 80s. Anyway...I'll be giving my review in the next few days hopefully.
God bless,
John
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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