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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > The delay of the Parousia implies an open future | Forum Quick Jump
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Lee Merrill
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/12/2004 2:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hi Jeff,
quote:
Then I take it that you agree that the promise was not FULLfilled in Exodous. And if that's the case, then to me, the "delay" of the parousia is just another facet of the "delay" of Abraham's promise. Abraham knew of 400 years, the prophet knew of 70 years, and Daniel knew of 490 years, and yet it STILL hasn't happened. So, to me, they're all analagous and I don't see how one's anymore OV than another, if they're OV at all. Follow my reasoning? I realize you're not OV, but can you see my point?
I'm not sure which promise you mean, though. The 400 year promise was the God would bring them out of bondage, the 70 year promise was that the Jewish people would return to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple, and the 490 year promise was for the coming of the Messiah, and then the end of the age, which was interrupted by "the times of the Gentiles." So I think all these promises were fulfilled, and the promise of giving Canaan to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not have a specified time, for them as individuals...
Blessings,
Lee
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 7/13/2004 1:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
I'm not sure which promise you mean, though. The 400 year promise was the God would bring them out of bondage, the 70 year promise was that the Jewish people would return to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple, and the 490 year promise was for the coming of the Messiah, and then the end of the age, which was interrupted by "the times of the Gentiles." So I think all these promises were fulfilled, and the promise of giving Canaan to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not have a specified time, for them as individuals...
How could all of the promises have been fulfilled if Abraham never inherited the Land he was promised to inherit and the 490 years has been "interrupted" by thousands of years, thereby modifying the basis of thinking the "end of the age" was near in the first place?
In Genesis, Abraham asked WHEN he would inherit the Land and God told him the bit about the 400 years. When we compare that to Acts 7, we see that God's promise to Abraham to inherit the Land had "drawn near" during Moses day - but it DIDN'T happen. In other words, it was assumed to be near because there was no knowledge to the contrary at that time of the Exodous. Same with Daniel and the 70 years and with Christ's generation and the parousia - the FULfillment of Abraham's promise was thought to be near in each case because there was no knowledge to the contrary at the time.
But I'm not sure if these "delays" (if indeed you can even call them delays) have anything to do with OV. One way out is to assume it's ALWAYS near in God's perception, but that would mean it hasn't been delayed at all and the whole question of this thread would be baseless.
quote:
7:2 So he replied, “Brothers and fathers, listen to me. The God of glory appeared to our forefather Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he settled in Haran, 7:3 and said to him, ‘Go out from your country and from your relatives, and come to the land I will show you.’ 7:4 Then he went out from the country of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. After his father died, God made him move to this country where you now live. 7:5 He did not give any of it to him for an inheritance, not even a foot of ground, yet God promised to give it to him as his possession, and to his descendants after him, even though Abraham as yet had no child. 7:6 But God spoke as follows: ‘Your descendants will be foreigners in a foreign country, whose citizens will enslave them and mistreat them for four hundred years. 7:7 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,’ said God, ‘and after these things they will come out of there and worship me in this place.’ 7:8 Then God gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision, and so he became the father of Isaac and circumcised him when he was eight days old, and Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob of the twelve patriarchs. 7:9 The patriarchs, because they were jealous of Joseph, sold him into Egypt. But God was with him, 7:10 and rescued him from all his troubles, and granted him favor and wisdom in the presence of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, who made him ruler over Egypt and over all his household. 7:11 Then a famine occurred throughout Egypt and Canaan, causing great suffering, and our ancestors could not find food. 7:12 So when Jacob heard that there was grain in Egypt, he sent our ancestors there the first time. 7:13 On their second visit Joseph made himself known to his brothers again, and Joseph’s family became known to Pharaoh. 7:14 So Joseph sent a message and invited his father Jacob and all his relatives to come, seventy-five people in all. 7:15 So Jacob went down to Egypt and died there, along with our ancestors, 7:16 and their bones were later moved to Shechem and placed in the tomb that Abraham had bought for a certain sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.
7:17 “But as the time drew near for God to fulfill the promise he had declared to Abraham, the people increased greatly in number in Egypt,
Notice the connection of the emphasized text. When you compare this to the fact that God spoke the bit about the 400 years sojourning in answer to Abraham asking God WHEN he would inherit the land, the connection does not seem to be coincidental - the implication seems to be that Abraham could have been ressurected shortly after the 400 years AS FAR AS HE KNEW AT THE TIME, just like the parousia seemed close based on what they knew at the time. But Christ warned them (in Acts 1) that the kingdom might not have been established "in that time (gr. chronos)," since the "times and seasons" were in the authority of the Father.
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Similitude
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 7/13/2004 12:46 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 7/13/2004 1:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
quote:
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Acts 7:17 “But as the time drew near for God to fulfill the promise he had declared to Abraham, the people increased greatly in number in Egypt,
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But this almost certainly refers to the promise that his descendants would return to Canaan:
Not according to the 1st verse I emphasized in Acts 7. In the greek, the correspondence is even clearer. Moreover, there was at least a 40-year delay even assuming your view, wasn't there?
When Abraham asked HOW he might know, God answered with a time-frame. HOW then was he to inherit? - by ressurection. The history of waiting for Abraham's promise was partly one of time-frames followed by new revelation explaining new "delays" (if they are actually delays). At least that's how it seems to me. I don't see how they're related to OV, though.
Question: Do you think the whole 490 years have been completed, and if so, when?
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 4:26 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Lee Merrill
Hi Jeff,
quote:
All three of the patriarchs were promised the Land. ... I'm interested in your theological take on Abraham's promise to inherit the Land. Do you think Abraham was NEVER to receive the Land, CONDITIONALLY to receive the Land, or UNCONDITIONALLY to receive the Land? How one answers that question will have an effect on how he/she will see a relation of OV to that Land promise.
I would say unconditionally, he was promised the land. And the fulfillment will be the passage that you mentioned, when Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob take their seats in the kingdom...
My 2c...
Blessings,
Lee
DITTO!
And that should inform our worldview.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 7/13/2004 4:38 PM (GMT -6) | | I won't try to derail this thread. But from the beginning I noticed that the word "parousia" is given a different primary reason here than the equally meaningful definition that refers to "God in us."
Let me post here a couple of quotes that use the word "parousia." I think that seeing how it is used, and seeing the way it is used helps.
quote:
"The remembrance of Christ which he He instituted (This do in remembrance of Me) is the affirmation of His 'Parousia,' of His presence; it is the actualization of His Kingdom…"
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In the Parousia the work of transfiguration that is now going on as the Church fulfills its sacramental mission and labours will be completed and the whole world will be transfigured into the glory of the divine likeness. May the work of Mission hasten forward the coming of the glorious Day.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/14/2004 3:22 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi everyone,
quote:
Jeff: ... there was at least a 40-year delay even assuming your view, wasn't there?
Genesis 15:13 Then the Lord said to Abram, "Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years."
The affliction was to be 400 years, thus it might not have started immediately after Joseph's family came to Egypt.
quote:
Question: Do you think the whole 490 years have been completed, and if so, when?
No, I don't think all the time shown to Daniel has passed, I think Jesus said the clock stopped, for "the times of the Gentiles," and when Jerusalem is no longer trampled down by the Gentiles, the clock will start again.
quote:
POW: In the Parousia the work of transfiguration that is now going on as the Church fulfills its sacramental mission and labours will be completed and the whole world will be transfigured into the glory of the divine likeness. May the work of Mission hasten forward the coming of the glorious Day.
I agree, Jesus came at Pentecost, he is coming now, and he will come again visibly, as visibly as the lightning, some day in the future.
Blessings,
Lee
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BemaBound
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 9/2/2004 5:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." (NAU)
God is "open" to some things - especially when it involves our choices. But when He says He "fixes a day" and chooses to use these words rather than "there will come a time," then we ought not to squeeze this into the category of "open," but leave it as "fixed." It appears that God does fix some days. Many understand that Daniel's 69th week - 483 years - was fulfilled on the fixed day that Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem and was proclaimed the Messiah ("Baruk haba bashem adonoi" or "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" - a clearly Messianic title given only to King Messiah).*
* Observe the words the our Master Himself used... "this, thy day." and "the time of thy visitation"
Luke 19:37-44 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. (KJV)
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