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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/24/2004 5:39 PM (GMT -6) |   | The urgency of Paul in evangelism was urgent to say the least.
He indicates in I Thessalonians 4 an expectation that there would be those among them who would be alive at the Lord’s coming. This is all well and good. We all know many who have this urgent expectation of the Lord’s coming.
However, Paul was an inspire writer. The Spirit was giving Paul this very real sense of urgency. Paul conveys in no uncertain terms that the Parousia was just around the corner for the Thessalonians?
Yet, the parousia has not occurred. What are we to make of this?
Option 1:
The Spirit knew all along the Parousia was thousands of years away yet inspired Paul to write as if there would be those in Thessalonica who would live to see it.
This seems to imply disingenuity on the part of the Spirit in inspiration
Option 2:
The Spirit inspired the sense of urgency because He, being the Spirit and not the Father, did not “know” when the Parousia would be ushered in and now seemed as good a time as any to inspire Paul’s sense of urgency.
Seems to imply lack of knowledge within the Godhead intolerable to Open
Theists much less everyone else.
Option 3:
The Spirit inspired the sense of urgency because the moment of the Parousia COULD indeed be SOON depending on when the circumstances set forth by the Father (gospel preached to all nations, etc.) were fulfilled.
Therefore, since the Parousia was inspired by the Spirit as being imminent but has not yet occurred we may infers that the parousia was never “determined” in the first place by God which indicates the future is indeed “open.”
What say ye?
John
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/25/2004 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Now AND Not Yet.
"We have this treasure in earthen vessels..."
Christian liturgy, with the two halves of the worship service (Word AND Sacrament) witness to the fact that Christian NOW experience the "anticipation" of the Last Day. And Sunday, which is BOTH the First Day AND the Eighth Day (which has always been the symbol of the Parousia) has always witnessed to the "now and not yet" experience of Christ's Church. The Spirit in us, and us in the world.
This tension is never something to be avoided. Just lived, and witnessed to.
That's why we can declare "I've been born again" even when we still await the final trumpet!!!
Maranatha! | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/25/2004 7:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Option Four:
"The Kingdom of God is within you." | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/25/2004 7:33 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
Option Four:
"The Kingdom of God is within you."
quote:
Johannine Theology, 2
(From International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)
. . .
(5) The Parousia.
In like manner the conception of the Parousia is primarily spiritual. The substitution in the Fourth Gospel of the Supper Discourse (John 14 through 16) for the apocalyptic chapters in the Synoptics is of the utmost significance. It is not a Christ coming on the clouds of heaven that is presented, but a Christ who has come and is ever coming to dwell in closest fellowship with His people (see above under IV). Yet John by no means discards belief in the Parousia as a historical event of the future. If Christ's abiding-place is in those that love Him and keep His word, there is also a Father's House in which there are many abiding-places, whither He goes to prepare a place for them and whence He will come again to receive them unto Himself (John 14:2-3). Still more is this emphasized in the Epistle. The command "Love not the world" is sharpened by the assurance that the world is on the verge, aye, in the process of dissolution (1 John 2:17). The exhortation to "abide in him" is enforced by the dread of being put to shame at His impending advent (1 John 2:28). The hope of being made partakers in His manifested glory is the consummation of all that is implied in our being now children of God (1 John 3:2-3).
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/ISBE/Topic/Johannine%20Theology,%202
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/25/2004 7:35 AM (GMT -6) | | BOTH:
1. "It is not a Christ coming on the clouds of heaven that is presented, but a Christ who has come and is ever coming to dwell in closest fellowship with His people"
2. "Yet John by no means discards belief in the Parousia as a historical event of the future." | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/25/2004 8:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by PotOnWheel
BOTH:
1. "It is not a Christ coming on the clouds of heaven that is presented, but a Christ who has come and is ever coming to dwell in closest fellowship with His people"
2. "Yet John by no means discards belief in the Parousia as a historical event of the future."
PoW,
In this thread the issue is the Second Advent/Parousia of Christ, not the "now aspect" of the kingdom of God, of which we no doubt all are quite aware.
2 Pet. 3:11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness, 12waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire? NRSV
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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johnmd
Registered Member
Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 154
| Posted 3/25/2004 8:41 AM (GMT -6) | | I am agreeing with everyone so far. AMAZING. My emphasis from Thessalonians specifically adresses the integration of Open Theism with the "not yet" of the coming escaton. In Thess. I believe the "Now" aspect of the "Lord's coming" had already come to the Thess believers. Hence the urgency Paul expresses would be unnecessary unless an "event" was pending.
Blessings
John | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/25/2004 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by victoryword
Well
I would take Option 3 as well, BUT .....
One still must deal with this passage:
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. (Matt. 24:36; RSV)
After, someone can argue that the Father seems to know the hour of the Lord's coming, even if others (including the second person of the Godhead) does not.
Good point, VW. I seem to recall Dr. Boyd drawing the analogy of a father saying to his daughter, "I will now when you are ready to drive a car." Not a specific date on a timeline, but a degree of maturity/ripeness is indicated. In other words, the Father knows when the time will be right.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 3/25/2004 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Here is the quote of Boyd to which I referred (link below) :
Another interesting passage which suggests that the Lord faces an open future (and not just a future which seems open to us) is 2 Pet., 3:9-12. Even though Jesus taught us that the Father alone knows the day and hour (Mk.. 13:32), Peter suggests that God has delayed the second coming because he is "patient with you, not wanting any to perish" (2 Pet. 3:9). Moreover, Peter then encourages believers to be "looking for and hastening (speudõ) the coming of the day of God" (2 Pet. 3:12, NAS).5 Two points may be made regarding this passage.
First, if it can be delayed by God and speeded up by us, the time of the second coming must not be fixed-at least not from all eternity.
Hence, when Jesus tells us the Father alone knows "the day and the hour, of the coming of the son of man, we should perhaps take this as an idiomatic way of saying that the decision as to when it should occur is completely the Father's, and he alone will know when the time is right. I may tell my daughter that "I know the time" when she'll be ready to drive a car. But I'm not thereby claiming that I have a pre-set date in mind. I'm rather saying that I know the criteria in her life that I'm looking for upon which my decision is based. Judging from 2 Peter, it appears that the rate of the growth of the Kingdom in the world is one important variable which the Father considers in deciding when to bring to a close this age. But when this criteria shall be met seems somewhat open to our influence.
Secondly, it seems difficult, if not impossible, to take seriously the teaching that the second coming can really be delayed or speeded up depending somewhat on what we do if we also hold that God possesses EDF. If God possesses EDF, then he would possess an unalterable knowledge of exactly when the second coming would take place. But in this case it hardly makes sense to say that God delayed it or that we should try to speed it up.
http://twtministries.com/articles/9_openness/open.html
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/26/2004 3:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by John Earp
..the analogy of a father saying to his daughter, "I will now when you are ready to drive a car." Not a specific date on a timeline, but a degree of maturity/ripeness is indicated. In other words, the Father knows when the time will be right.
Apt idea, John. | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/10/2004 1:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. (Matt. 24:36; RSV)
quote:
Good point, VW. I seem to recall Dr. Boyd drawing the analogy of a father saying to his daughter, "I will now when you are ready to drive a car." Not a specific date on a timeline, but a degree of maturity/ripeness is indicated. In other words, the Father knows when the time will be right.
Hope no one minds me bringing up some of these posts from the past but thought I would go back and see other things that have been said…..I would ask the question if what Jesus said that the Father would come when the time is ripe, why didn’t he just say that? Could he not have just as easily have said that more clear thing then to confuse us into thinking that he the Father knew the time? Also there is reference to the coming perhaps being thousands of years in the future [from the time of Christ] as its recorded in Peter. It states for a thousand years is as a day and a thousand years as a day….isn’t that a revealing to them from the Spirit that it would not really be for along period of time? 
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/10/2004 1:53 PM (GMT -6) | | 1TH 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
I think people have generally taken "we" here as a way to refer to believers who are currently alive, at any given time, as in this and similar passages:
GAL 2:17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ..."
RO 5:3 "Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings..."
quote:
POW:
1. "It is not a Christ coming on the clouds of heaven that is presented, but a Christ who has come and is ever coming to dwell in closest fellowship with His people"
2. "Yet John by no means discards belief in the Parousia as a historical event of the future."
Yes, I agree, that in a sense, Jesus is always coming now, ever since Pentecost:
JN 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
And this was speaking about the coming of the Spirit.
quote:
Bobber: there is reference to the coming perhaps being thousands of years in the future [from the time of Christ] as its recorded in Peter. It states for a thousand years is as a day and a thousand years as a day.
That is true! Then it's only been two days, so far...
quote:
Jeff: In Acts 7, we are reminded that the land was promised to Abraham and later in that chapter Stephen said "as the time of the promise drew nigh," etc. The implication seems to be that the fulfillment of the promise was postponed.
I don't think so, though! It was right on time...
EX 12:41 At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the Lord's divisions left Egypt.
quote:
Jeff: A similar situation is in Daniel where he had searched the scripture and found the 70 prophecied years before the RETURN to the land. He was then told that the REAL kingdom would not be for another 490 years. This seems to be a kind of postponement, too, since Daniel was sickened by this news, implying he understood the 70 year return to be the FINAL return.
But the return to the land did happen as prophesied, and Daniel had understood it correctly. And I don't think Daniel was sickened by the further information he was given, it seems to me as if God was saying, "That's right! And here is what is going to happen next." Like "to him who has, more will be given" (Lk. 19:26).
quote:
Chuck: ... but earlier in this passage (Acts 1) the Disciples ask about the Establishment of His kingdom. He says
He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority" verse 7
This would imply to me that maybe God has fixed this one point
even if He doesn't have or choose to exercise Exhaustive Define Foreknowledge!
That's a good point! I hadn't thought of that verse, in this connection...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 7/11/2004 4:48 AM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
All three of the patriarchs were promised the Land. They made burial preparations and Joseph had his bones brought back from Egypt because the believed the promise LITERALLY. Indeed, Abraham was said to have been willing to kill Isaac KNOWING that God would ressurect him. So the ultimate fulfilling of the promise has been delayed until the parousia, at which time many will come from the east and west and recline with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. See the passage in the beginning of Luke that refers to the Messiah's reign as the fulfillment of Abraham's promise.
Moreover, Daniel's reponse to the revelation seems to make it clear to me that he thought the Messiah would come after the 70 years. The revelation about the additional years was a disappointment for that reason.
These two cases and the parousia delay seem to be analagous. I'm not sure how they fit into OV. Though we disagree philosophically about ethical theory and, hence, the nature of the problem of evil and it's role in theology, these three cases need to be debated independent of those considerations in my opinion. I'm interested in your theological take on Abraham's promise to inherit the Land. Do you think Abraham was NEVER to receive the Land, CONDITIONALLY to receive the Land, or UNCONDITIONALLY to receive the Land? How one answers that question will have an effect on how he/she will see a relation of OV to that Land promise.
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 7/12/2004 1:52 PM (GMT -6) | | Lee,
quote:
I would say unconditionally, he was promised the land. And the fulfillment will be the passage that you mentioned, when Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob take their seats in the kingdom...
Then I take it that you agree that the promise was not FULLfilled in Exodous. And if that's the case, then to me, the "delay" of the parousia is just another facet of the "delay" of Abraham's promise. Abraham knew of 400 years, the prophet knew of 70 years, and Daniel knew of 490 years, and yet it STILL hasn't happened. So, to me, they're all analagous and I don't see how one's anymore OV than another, if they're OV at all. Follow my reasoning? I realize you're not OV, but can you see my point?
wjs | | Back to Top | | |
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