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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > The raging debate continues here... > The Open View In Light Of God's Eternal Purpose | Forum Quick Jump
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/3/2004 2:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Isaiah 46:10
"Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'"
Prophecy isn't about God's knowledge of a future that doesn't exist yet, it's about His ability to bring about what He says He'll accomplish. SwanLake
Well I think most all Bible theologians agree there are a great many things God does because he’s actually responsible for it. The Great White Throne Judgment, the Rapture of the Church. The resurrection from the dead. Also when one nation does this or does that God says Ok im going to do this to you.None of this does away with the fact however that there are a great many things that he has foreknowledge of but did not commission them to happen. Your statement to look at all the scriptures which state this was done in order that…..well not all the scriptures put it this way….some put it this way, for example when Herod slew the children…..it doesn’t say this was done in order to fulfill a prophecy ….it states Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, In other words I don’t’ get from this that God has any purpose of ordering this event to take place. It merely states a prophecy became fulfilled. God saw the time line of what was then the future take place and reported it to the ancient prophet Jermiah , so yes I would argue that God did see into the future, once it occurred and sent the revelation of it back through time. Not by guessing but by knowing God knew about Herod hundreds of years before he was born. [IMO]
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/3/2004 3:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Bobber,
quote:
Jesus said three times Peter would deny him. Why not two times, four times, or five? It could have been those numbers just as easily could it not?
That's a good point! And it gets worse! "Before this night is over, before the rooster crows," this is quite a detailed prediction!
quote:
Now the implications are this, what if Jesus was wrong?
That's also a good point! Jesus say "Truly, truly" (Jn. 13:37), his way of saying "this is quite certain." It was not a guess! And we know one of the reasons Jesus made such predictions:
JN 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."
Now if all Jesus' disciples were to believe is that God was a good guesser, then that's not a very compelling reason to believe that a person is the Messiah. And if Jesus could be wrong about Peter, how could he make his next statement?
JN 14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me."
How can we not be troubled, if we know that God is only guessing? How can we trust in God, if we know he can predict an outcome, say "this is very certain," and be mistaken?
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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SwanLake
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Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/3/2004 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
I guess I have a lot of trouble with the idea stated above. Yes Jesus knew Peter pretty well which im sure he did but to say that he merely accurately guessed Peter would deny him…well I think I would reconsider that position.
Did Jesus guess Peter would run away after He was arrested? No, He watched Peter run away after He was arrested and had shown Peter (the Zealot) that the kingdom wasn't coming right then by overthrowing the Romans.
Jesus knew Peter's expectations (as a Zealot) for an earthly kingdom within their lifetime. He knew Peter could see his dreams of overthrowing the Romans collapse. He knew his disciples were essentially cowards when confronted with the facts that Jesus was going to die and that the overthrow of the Romans was not going to happen.
Peter was with Jesus for three years, publically! Thousands of people had seen Jesus and Peter with Him. Is it any doubt that people wouldn't recognize Peter as having been with Jesus?
Jesus, after His resurrection, gives Peter three chances to say that he loves Jesus, to mirror the three denials. There's probably a reason they waited for three denials before poking that rooster.
[There's a whole thread dedicated to 'threes']
God's kingdom was entirely different from what the disciples were expecting, they eventually got their power (at Pentecost) but they had to come to the end of all their earthly efforts first. I'm sure it was an emotionally, physically, mentally draining defeat to see your 'savior' arrested, tried and killed, dashing all your hopes. But that was only part 1 of the great plan.
quote:
Can we really see Jesus playing such a wild poker game of chance without actually knowing for an absolute fact what would occur?
Yes I can! I helped create two children that might grow up to hate me and commit atrocious crimes. I still took the risk because the potential for GOOD outweighs the potential for EVIL.
God took this same risk by making people with free-will. He could have created robots that programmatically do everything correctly but when a robot says "I. L.O.V.E. Y.O.U.", I grant you'd not get warm fuzzys from that.
What takes more power? To win a game where you control EVERYTHING or to win a game where you don't control everything? Do you like WWF? 
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey | | Back to Top | | |
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/3/2004 6:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
so yes I would argue that God did see into the future, once it occurred and sent the revelation of it back through time.
How? You still haven't explained how an infinite amount of data (all knowlege from creation to infinite eternity) can be "sent back through time" simultaneously in the finite medium of this universe.
At the moment of creation, He needed all data (from then to infinite eternity), for Him to "know the future". That's simultaneous infinite data; so how did He "blast this back" through the finite universe?
Everything I've read about "time travel" involved singular experiments, one time events, "a message", "a trip", etc. NOT simultaneous infinity.
Anything posited (I can stuff a cat into a bag) needs to scale up to infinitude (but can I stuff an infinite number of cats into bags simultaneously?) to solve the problem of God knowing the infinite future simultaneously and comprehensively.
See, bobber, I got you stuck because you've earlier, correctly, stated, "I would submit that God did know the choices in the way and manner of which ive stated in other posts…..that first of all there is no such thing as being in the future to see it….for the future does not exist until it unfolds…". You're correct that God doesn't exist in the future right now because the future doesn't exist right now. See, the only infinite medium to "blast back" simultaneous, infinite data would be God Himself. But He doesn't exist "in the future" right now as you correctly stated. Jump into the OV pool, the water's fine, and you'll always be welcome. Unlike some people, you seem to be smart enough to understand the simplicity of God and His creation. 
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 7/3/2004 1:36 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
SwanLake: Jesus knew Peter pretty well and given the current climate (they all ran away after He was arrested), accurately guessed Peter would deny Him.
Enough people had seen Jesus and Peter accompanying Him, for you to have a number of them question him about that (or have God prompt them by suggestion). Then God can poke a rooster (no free-will violated there) to crow at the right time.
Swan - Though I ascribe to OV thinking, I have to disagree with the "accurate guess" theory - though it's probably just as good as any other theory since we will not know for sure until glory.
What could have happened is this: It's safe to say that Jesus knew that it wasn't in Peter's heart to confess Him, and that it was in his heart to deny Him (for Jesus knew Peter's heart and all that was in his heart... God DOES know everything present, and what was presently in Peter's heart was data which could be known and therefore known by Jesus).
quote:
Matt 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them,....
Luke 5:22 Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?
Luke 6:8 But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Get up and stand in front of everyone."
Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall...
John 2:24-25 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
So, since Jesus knew that Peter would not confess Jesus, then Jesus knew that Peter would deny Jesus. Jesus knew that Peter would deny Jesus over and over and over again(remember - when something is not in your heart to do, you just won't do it; and if something is in your heart to do, you will do it. You see, it was not yet in Peter's heart to confess Jesus, so Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him over and over. So, just to burn in the lesson to Peter, all God would need to do is to have a rooster crowing at the third time of his denial.
quote:
Matt 26:74-75 Then he began to call down curses on himself and he swore to them, "I don't know the man!" Immediately a rooster crowed. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.
Jesus could have just as easily have said, "You will deny me 4 times before the rooster crows." and it would have been so. Becuase it was in Peter's heart to deny his Lord.
This again shows that the purpose was to allow Peter to follow through with a "test" that he had already failed in his heart, in order that he might learn a lesson. Jesus appeared to bring that lesson home when He asked him three times, "Do you love Me?" Then, Jesus brings the lesson home:
quote:
John 21:18-20 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."
Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
Jesus taught Peter that it was not his own self-confidence that would glorify Him, but it would be Peter's reaching out his hand and allowing Jesus to gird him with a new confidence based on dependence and trust in Jesus.
Again, to me, the only way to somewhat grasp any understanding about God's predetermined will and our free will, is to understand it in light of what God is after in us, and what God's eternal purpose is - which is to raise up a people who would be "tested, tried and true." This is a time of testing and in this case Peter was tested, failed, but then "got it." In passing these tests, the Christian becomes qualified for a place with Jesus in His Kingdom to come. In failing the tests in life, we disqualify ourselves for that place with Jesus that we could have had.
quote:
Rev 3:21-22 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/3/2004 2:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi SwanLake,
quote:
Peter was with Jesus for three years, publically!
But God is not predicting now, he is being fond of the number three, as when people pick their favorite number in the lottery!
quote:
Bobber: Can we really see Jesus playing such a wild poker game of chance without actually knowing for an absolute fact what would occur?
SwanLake: He could have created robots that programmatically do everything correctly but when a robot says "I. L.O.V.E. Y.O.U.", I grant you'd not get warm fuzzys from that.
But that's not Bobber's point. He is asking why Jesus would stake so much on a chance, since losing meant people would no doubt decide he was just as error-prone as they are. You are saying this is correct! Which just proves the point. I shall quote myself!
"How can we not be troubled (John 14:1), if we know that God is only guessing? How can we trust in God, if we know he can predict an outcome, say 'truly, truly, i.e. this is very certain,' and be mistaken?"
quote:
What takes more power? To win a game where you control EVERYTHING or to win a game where you don't control everything?
I shall quote myself again! On the "Invincible Chess Master" thread...
quote:
OV: Think of it this way, God's chess moves will ultimately win, by win I don't regard that as specifically someone's "salvation" (though it includes that) but to the fact that evil will be eventually overcame and that good will reign forever while those who are evil will suffer for their evil forever. God will "win" the chess match in this sense.
Lee: But then he wins regardless of how he chooses! Whatever God does, if he takes whoever will come, then he wins, by this definition. How is winning in this way a special demonstration of God's wisdom and strength, though?
I would also note that the devil wins, too, by this definition, though he winds up in hell, he still accomplishes some of his purposes. By this definition, I have never lost a chess match, either! Nobody has...
So what does winning mean, to the Open View?
quote:
Michael: it was not yet in Peter's heart to confess Jesus, so Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him over and over. So, just to burn in the lesson to Peter, all God would need to do is to have a rooster crowing at the third time of his denial.
This is more compelling, but now we still have to assume that Peter would make all the free-will choices leading up to his denial, be challenged as he was, and choose to deny Jesus, rather than, say, make a quick exit. Lots of free-will choices here, the problem is not substantially reduced, I think. And I forgot the door-keeper, she has to decide to let Peter in. And John has to make it a point to be there too, to ask her to let him in. And this all has to happen tonight, not tomorrow...
Blessings,
Lee
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"Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions
from which we receive no word to bring away" (George MacDonald) | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 7/3/2004 3:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
quote: Michael: it was not yet in Peter's heart to confess Jesus, so Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him over and over. So, just to burn in the lesson to Peter, all God would need to do is to have a rooster crowing at the third time of his denial.
quote:
Lee Merrill: This is more compelling, but now we still have to assume that Peter would make all the free-will choices leading up to his denial, be challenged as he was, and choose to deny Jesus, rather than, say, make a quick exit. Lots of free-will choices here, the problem is not substantially reduced, I think. And I forgot the door-keeper, she has to decide to let Peter in. And John has to make it a point to be there too, to ask her to let him in. And this all has to happen tonight, not tomorrow...
All those details that needed to happen --- that night... no problem. If we start out with God's purpose - which is the lesson Jesus wanted to teach Peter, then, without violating Peter's will, God has the sovereign right to arrange circumstances and direct people to a certain time and place in order for His purpose to be fulfilled. And that seems to be what happened.
God, behind the scenes, arranged the situation and led Peter to that place where he would deny Jesus. You see, what was in his heart already happened in God's eyes - but it had to come out in a confession to make it clear to Peter what he had already done in his heart. So, in that way, God didn't coerce Peter to deny Jesus. He arranged circumstances so that Peter could hear what was in his heart and feel remorse over it.
Peter was in "self-deception" mode before that. God, in his love, led Peter out of that mode and allowed him the blessing of hearing what was in his heart so that he could repent and be restored. Notice: after Peter denied Jesus and then remembered the words Jesus said, he went outside and wept bitterly. He wasn't weeping bitterly (though he ought to have been) when he was denying Jesus in his heart. What a blessing it was for God to help him break his spirit of denial - and then to help him break his cocky confidence later on.
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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BemaBound
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 50
| Posted 7/3/2004 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | God has the sovereign right to lead His sheep in His ways. And especially in those times of our sin - when we're walking in our guilt and confusion and have no idea where we are going, God, in His great mercy and love, leads us.
He leadeth me, O blessèd thought!
O words with heav’nly comfort fraught!
Whate’er I do, where’er I be
Still ’tis God’s hand that leadeth me.
He leadeth me, He leadeth me,
By His own hand He leadeth me;
His faithful follower I would be,
For by His hand He leadeth me.
Sometimes mid scenes of deepest gloom,
Sometimes where Eden’s bowers bloom,
By waters still, over troubled sea,
Still ’tis His hand that leadeth me.
Refrain
Lord, I would place my hand in Thine,
Nor ever murmur nor repine;
Content, whatever lot I see,
Since ’tis my God that leadeth me.
Refrain
And when my task on earth is done,
When by Thy grace the vict’ry’s won,
E’en death’s cold wave I will not flee,
Since God through Jordan leadeth me.
From "Think About His Love"
"...even when I strayed away
His love has sought me out and found me;
He satisfies, He satisfies,
He satisfies my desire..."
Michael | | Back to Top | | |
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SwanLake
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 116
| Posted 7/3/2004 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by BemaBound
What could have happened is this: It's safe to say that Jesus knew that it wasn't in Peter's heart to confess Him, and that it was in his heart to deny Him (for Jesus knew Peter's heart and all that was in his heart... God DOES know everything present, and what was presently in Peter's heart was data which could be known and therefore known by Jesus).
quote:
Matt 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them,....
Luke 5:22 Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?
Luke 6:8 But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Get up and stand in front of everyone."
Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall...
John 2:24-25 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.
So, since Jesus knew that Peter would not confess Jesus, then Jesus knew that Peter would deny Jesus. Jesus knew that Peter would deny Jesus over and over and over again(remember - when something is not in your heart to do, you just won't do it; and if something is in your heart to do, you will do it. You see, it was not yet in Peter's heart to confess Jesus, so Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him over and over. So, just to burn in the lesson to Peter, all God would need to do is to have a rooster crowing at the third time of his denial.
Sounds good to me.  And plenty of people had seen the two together and Jesus knew the thoughts of the crowd.
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.
But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces,
and this is what annoys me." -- Jack Handey | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/3/2004 6:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Thousands of people had seen Jesus and Peter with Him. Is it any doubt that people wouldn't recognize Peter as having been with Jesus? [Swan]
No doubt at all im sure Swan. But that’s not the issue here now. Im not saying there wasn’t a good possibility that Peter would deny the Lord three times what Im saying is that for Jesus to state that Peter actually would, not that he might, or would have the potential to but that he would deny him three times….well that’s going out on a limb of great and enormous risk, that is if we believed that Jesus just guessed at this. Risk why? Risk because Jesus stated a certain thing would take place, not that it might, but that it would! If Jesus was wrong he would have lost all credibility with his disciples. Would it be worth it to loose the faith of his men by making a guess?
If he wasn’t sure about this why in the world do you think he would have said it? Here’s something else to consider Swan. John 13:38 is the verse where the Lord tells Peter he’ll deny him three times. If you study it closely Jesus began by saying, the two words, verily, verily. Sometimes we read through the King James and when we come to the verily, , it sort of doesn’t register. We almost think he’s being poetic. No, verily verily comes from the word we get verification from . In other words it is a verified thing that you will deny me three times Peter, you can take it to the bank, it will be this way and none other. I state once again that to say that Jesus was guessing here is to suggest that it wasn’t a verified thing.
But Jesus said that it was. There was no ifs ands or buts that Peter would deny Jesus but to say it was a guess means it wasn’t known for sure. Not true.
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Bobber
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/3/2004 6:44 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jesus, after His resurrection, gives Peter three chances to say that he loves Jesus, to mirror the three denials. There's probably a reason they waited for three denials before poking that rooster.
But then again you can’t build a doctrine on some theory that there was a purpose for the number three. Im not even sure it can be proven the Lord walked with his diciples exactly three years….I thought I read one place it was 3 ½. So what do you do with that? Actually some time ago I was reading on the three chances for Peter to say that he loves the Lord. Ive heard all my Christian life the thing you mentioned that Peter denied him three times and he told the Lord he loved him three times. Actually I don’t think there’s anything that can connect the two things together . I watched the Gospel Of John movie some time ago, and something clicked in me how they portrayed this scene.
When Jesus asked Peter if he loved him to feed his sheep Peter started weeping. The idea was was that Peter didn’t want to be in the ministry. He had went back to fishing. That’s where the Lord was where he said this thing. He asked him the second time…more weeping and saying you know Lord that I love you! "Feed my sheep!" IN other worlds what are you doing out here going back to your fishing? Ive called you to be in the ministry!” It basically just took the Lord three times to get it into Peter’s thinking and to get his life turned around. Anyway I don’t see anything in the text which is of importance for Peter to deny the Lord three times or trying to connect the two. It just isn’t’ there.
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Bobber
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/3/2004 7:41 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
What could have happened is this: It's safe to say that Jesus knew that it wasn't in Peter's heart to confess Him, and that it was in his heart to deny Him (for Jesus knew Peter's heart and all that was in his heart...
But hold on now! I think we need to appreciate here that God knew his disciples and what they would do before they were even born. Zech 13:7 states “Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered” And Jesus quoted this in the gospels concerning his disciples forsaking him. So in order for God to know what his disciples would do hundreds of years before they were born it had to be that he was seeing the future as an open book. As the future took place the revelation of it went backwards in time, to the time of the beginning. So yes Jesus is the Alpha/ Omega, beginning and the end knew the future of all things and because it became known if I might say by time travel mankind’s free will is absolutely totally in tact. Nobody can say that God has forced their will. Just because I would see something you would do and could go back in time with the knowledge of it no more means I was controlling your actions to do so either.
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Bobber
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Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/4/2004 3:20 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
so yes I would argue that God did see into the future, once it occurred and sent the revelation of it back through time.
quote:
How? You still haven't explained how an infinite amount of data (all knowledge from creation to infinite eternity) can be "sent back through time" simultaneously in the finite medium of this universe.
Well I don’t have to explain how as you put it an infinite amount of data from infinite eternity needs to be sent back. Why would you think I should? After all the scripture basically only takes us the time of after the millennium. [whatever each ones view here is on the millenium I don’t know]
quote:
At the moment of creation, He needed all data (from then to infinite eternity), for Him to "know the future".
Well very simply again he doesn’t have to know all the future of the eternities of all eternities’ in order to tell us what he does know.
quote:
See, bobber, I got you stuck because you've earlier, correctly, stated, "I would submit that God did know the choices in the way and manner of which ive stated in other posts…..that first of all there is no such thing as being in the future to see it….for the future does not exist until it unfolds…".
Yes but what I also added on to that once the future does unfold he can send, blast or connect a revelation back through time, and no it doesn’t demand infinite data of all the future, or in other words what goes on for forever and forever to do that.
quote:
Jump into the OV pool, the water's fine, and you'll always be welcome. Unlike some people, you seem to be smart enough to understand the simplicity of God and His creation.
Well there is one aspect I do agree with and that is God didn’t know all things at all times, meaning about the future. But he sent revelation back to change the past. God didn’t know who the elect were until he gained the foreknowledge concerning it by seeing our free will choices from the realm of eternity. If all who believe in free will not just you OV folks but all who believe in classical free will believe they would have to admit there is a sequence of knowledge or events being imparted to the creator that he observers. God saw our choices? Correct.
Well if language means anything that must mean we made the choice and then he had knowledge it and only then. But here we are living in 2004. For anyone to receive the Lord he does in in the realm of time we must call today. Well….1+1=2 and 2+2 =4. It must mean therefore for God to see our choices and to have known about them at the beginning…it must, and I say must mean time travel. When something must be a certain way it must be a certain way. I recall one time not being able to find my MP3 player, but I knew that I knew that I knew I had taken it to my bedroom. I couldn’t find it though. But I knew that I knew that I had it there. I calmed myself down and stated, “No its here because I know its got to be here!
It is because it is!” I kept looking. Yes, I finally found it under some sheets covered up. I liken that to this subject. Its really not as difficult as some folks might think. God knew my choices before I was born. Im the elect based on foreknowledge. I didn’t make my choice until the year of 1976. But God saw my choice as made from the time of the beginning. Has to mean time travel, that is time travel of information. This protects the belief of free will and no other means would. Not only that but I don’t think its coincidence that the universe is set up this way! Even men of science know that. As an object speeds up to near the speed of light, time slows down. They know from projecting what would have to be if they were to reach the speed of light time would stop. They also know that in theory if one was one step above light speed, time would go retrograde [backwards] Why should the system and the laws of the universe be set up this way if what im stating isn’t the truth?
quote:
Jump into the OV pool, the water's fine, and you'll always be welcome. Unlike some people, you seem to be smart enough to understand the simplicity of God and His creation.
Well maybe im in the OV pool to a degree but maybe the full OV position you advance is going way out too far out where you drown? It don’t mean that you’re not saved because of this but I think you’s have confused this certain thing. I can never accept that Jesus just guessed at Peter denying the Lord three times. To guess leaves room for failure, but nor do I believe God made Peter deny him as a Calvinist would. There are other examples I could site as well. [Knowing about Herod slaying the children before even he that is Herod was born…knowing about people and how they would respond in the book of Revelation to name just a couple]
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/4/2004 11:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Michael: All those details that needed to happen --- that night... no problem. If we start out with God's purpose - which is the lesson Jesus wanted to teach Peter, then, without violating Peter's will, God has the sovereign right to arrange circumstances and direct people to a certain time and place in order for His purpose to be fulfilled. And that seems to be what happened.
"God has the sovereign right to arrange circumstances and direct people to a certain time and place in order for His purpose to be fulfilled." Yes, I agree! That's Calvinism. "Without violating Peter's will..." That's OV. I don't think you can pick those two principles out like that, though, and place them both together. You can say "no problem," but that doesn't make the difficulties disappear! For example, if each event had a 99% probability of occurring, and there were a hundred choices involved overall (that's pretty conservative, and I'm not counting the rooster), then we have an overall probability of 37%. Eeek! That's not even probable. If it's a 90% chance for each event, then the overall probability is 0.00003% It goes down in a hurry. That's a problem...
quote:
Sahid: Knowing that Peter would say things in haste, knowing that he would act without thinking of the consequences, how could God guess that? What did He know about Peter that would suggest that?
Well, then somebody who is smarter than a psychiatrist could do as well as God. Maybe better, even. They're called futurists, or something similar, and do seminars all over the place...
quote:
Bobber: To guess leaves room for failure, but nor do I believe God made Peter deny him as a Calvinist would.
I agree that Jesus made it quite clear that his prediction was going to happen, thus it was not a guess. And the risk was indeed considerable, if he failed, "Do not let your hearts be troubled" becomes partly a plea for mercy, "I wish you wouldn't do that, even if I can't be right all the time" rather than an assurance.
But did God make Peter deny him? I think believers have real freedom, so I don't have to say everything they do is chosen for them by God. When they sin, though, can that be a bad exercise of their freedom? Yes, I think it can be:
GAL 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
I do believe God controls believers, though! But not that he makes every decision for them.
So I would say that God knew the future here, and Peter's choice, and told him about it, and that he knew Peter would return, too:
LK 22:32 And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.
I think Peter found some comfort in that statement, after he denied Christ, that Jesus also said he would return. Not guessed he would return! That wouldn't be very comforting...
Blessings,
Lee
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/5/2004 4:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
I think Peter found some comfort in that statement, after he denied Christ, that Jesus also said he would return. Not guessed he would return! That wouldn't be very comforting...
That adds another level of possiblity of being wrong. Jesus said Peter would return after denying him three times. How would Jesus even know Peter would come back after denying him that is if he didn't know the future? And also how would Jesus know the exact way and manner that Peter would be finally killed? Make a guess here, make a guess there...I find it astonishing that fellow Christian believers can think this was all done by guessing. It would also violate wisdom to even do so. What if Jesus were wrong? No, Jesus knew the future but I would say not as a Calvinist would suggest that God controls everything...like ive suggested time travel of information connected back to God in the beginning....this protects the whole concept of free will but also answers the many questions that OV has about God not knowing this or that. There was a time God didn't know all things, about the future but he changed that to become that he did.
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Bobber
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 199
| Posted 7/5/2004 8:25 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Another perfect example. If Jesus didn't know the future, he would have had to know the present perfectly. He would have to know the unsearchable depths of Peter's character. For real, do you really think God can know someone's character. [Sahid]
Not to the point of knowing how many times mathematically Peter was going to deny him. One might know or be pretty sure they know someone will forsake them, but even the worst cowards have surprised people and made a decision to put one foot in front of another to show courage. So I don’t’ think one could give a revealing of what actually would take place unless the future was clearly seen and known, I don’t care how smart one is. But I guess this is what the OV advocates will always maintain that God would. I count you’s as my precious brethren but I just can’t buy it myself.
quote:
Right! Who would guess that the Roman empire would be intolerant of a religion that claimed Caesar wasn't a god. And who could have guessed that they would crucify that religion's members. The Roman empire didn't crucify many people.
Once again I would say you’re not perhaps catching the import of something here. It could have went a different way. If it made sense to say that to Peter that he would be crucified because of the law of probablity made sense that Christians would be crucified then what about John? Was he crucified? No. So making a guess by the law of probability doesn’t make sense and would violate the wisdom of God to do so. What would be at stake in being wrong would have been mind staggering to even consider. No. God must have known the future not by a strange guess but by having the future become known to him…..by time travel…..that’s the only thing also which would guarantee freedom of will….the only thing.
quote:
There was a time God didn't know all things, about the future but he changed that to become that he did. [Bobber]
quote:
It all makes sense. God had the all information of future blasted back to him at the beginning, so he knew the future. But he didn't know the future. But he did know the future. Get it? [Sahid]
Yes I do…its called a paradox…something which seems to contradict itself by truly doesn’t. If I asked you where say a jet airplane is from the standpoint of your perception of sound you might point to one place in the sky and that would be true, but if I asked you where the jet is from the standpoint of sight you’d point to another point altogether. So the jet is not here but its there but its not there but here. Crazy? Not really. Perception of time is relative to ones vantage point of observing it or so said Einstein. So there is a reality from the standpoint of time but also a reality from the standpoint of eternity. “Both are real and they do not contradict each other.
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Lee Merrill
booted
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 723
| Posted 7/5/2004 3:36 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Sahid,
quote:
Sahid: I think God could know that Peter would keep denying him. And I think God could make a rooster crow to remind him at just the right time.
Yes, that's one event. If that was all that was involved, then we could be fairly confident of the outcome. But there were lots of events involved in this prediction! You can't just pick one of them, and say "this was probable, therefore the whole prediction was probable." That's just not true.
Again, if 100 critical events had to happen for Peter to deny Christ, then this is not a probable event at all, on any reasonable assumptions. Even given unreasonable assumptions, such as 99% probability of success for each event, and that there's only 100 of them.
I think I could probably make a case that there were lots of critical junctures as Peter followed Christ from a distance, on the way from the garden, to the high priest's court. He probably was constantly struggling between following and turning back. Never mind what had to happen after that, and all this had to happen that night...
Blessings,
Lee
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